Sign for grandchildren

What if it is reversed? My son would have loved to know his paternal grandmother when he was young, even now really. However she had no interest and still has no interest (the only thing I can think of is I divorced her son and put him in jail for DV). Could I or my son have filed a petition to force his grandmother to spend time with him?

Allsorts, yes, these kinds of orders are difficult to enforce, if they even try. Can they even be? I don't know.

I'd sooner move abroad than be forced into a relationship that is going to make my life more difficult.

Reading. up on grand children alienation you will see parents would never go along with anything the court decides, they would make it all too difficult I fear, which in turn would upset the grandchildren they would be like pawns in a game. I missed mine so much, but I had to let her go. I am so glad I had a normal relationship with my other gc, and my own children had a very close relationship with their grandparents, whom they adored, my son often talks about them. I was happy the more people to love them the better I say.

All sorts - ther appears to be a reason Smiles isn’t able to post

BUMPING this thread for those who want but as yet havent, signed the petition.

Hi Smileless
Not heard from you for a couple of days, hope you are ok. I know from my own experience how difficult Christmas can be,
especially when small grandchildren are involved. Do come back on and chat with us.

I think if you agree with the petition you sign, if not you don’t.

Very true Violet re Victim Impact statements

It's a bit like reading victim impact statements in court at sentencing.

It's important that their voices are heard and of course that influences decisions

It’s relevant though to acknowledge that unresolved feelings of grief, anger, rage and hurt aren’t a good foundation for policy making

Very true. As you say though personal experiences can feed into policy makers thinking and be very useful.

An example would be:

*Sarah's Law

- that happened because of the campaigning by Sarah Payne regarding controlled access to the sex offenders register after the murder of her young daughter by a known sex offender. Her experiences influenced policy makers, after much discussion policy was changed. There were certainly many petitions as part of her campaign.

In the end a petition can be started, signed by those who wish to and considered relevant or not by policy makers who have to be trusted to consider all aspects of the subject, all scenarios, possible connotations and decide on best fit policy.

In the case of the one posted in the OP I would hope that woukd be the case by policy makers. And in the case of the discussions on this thread I would hope that they may prove helpful to those finding themselves with painfully difficult decisions to make.

Agreed Iam which is why it is just as well that those understandably affected are not the policy makers.

Personal experiences are important, that goes without saying. I’m not attempting to intellectualise discussions like this. It’s relevant though to acknowledge that unresolved feelings of grief, anger, rage and hurt aren’t a good foundation for policy making.

Madgran, I apologize that my post seemed that it was directed at you personally. When I was asking those questions, I was meaning society as a whole. Sometimes my communication style is way to American. I do make the effort to remember that when I post, but sometimes I miss it.

No worries freedom.

Your questions are relevant for consideration in the discussion.

The problem is that because it is so emotive a subject for so many, from different ends of the spectrum, every word counts when writing about it on a group forum and can create all sorts of
"Rat run channels" for the
discussion to go down, some relevant some not. Generalised comments, not necessarily meant as they can be/are read, can so easily be misunderstood.

I try hard to be very precise regarding such comments as I think it is important to try to stop apparently emotive generalisations, which may not be intended, running down a rat run in the conversations. Sometimes, as with this one, I seem to have created a bigger rat run!! ?

Your utopia sounds a good one ?

Madgran77

It's coming from.. I read something, I think about the statement, I comment on the statement or opinion as I see it, sometimes giving an alternative view or perspective.

I am increasingly baffled!

I am going to bed

Often we are saying the same thing or I agree with you yet feel you don't agree with me so I'm not sure where it's going wrong but definitely happy to have a chat and a cuppa with you over PM sometime and put it right

I also need to sleep, had a few days of being unable to now and no idea why

Night

It's coming from.. I read something, I think about the statement, I comment on the statement or opinion as I see it, sometimes giving an alternative view or perspective.

I am increasingly baffled!

I am going to bed

Madgran, I apologize that my post seemed that it was directed at you personally. When I was asking those questions, I was meaning society as a whole. Sometimes my communication style is way to American. I do make the effort to remember that when I post, but sometimes I miss it.

I do agree that posters arguing for the law do seem to get their posts read sometimes as meaning they think "all grandparents are loving and caring". And vice versa.

That is why I believe that this back and forth that always seem to happen will stall any progress made. Every time we have a post such as this, it delves into this back and forth with both sides and gets no where.

This is why I asked the questions I did in my previous post. If I were sitting at a table with someone who supported this law, I would say this:

I understand that you are loving and caring and want to have contact with your grandchild. What do you propose we change to make that happen that still keeps my children safe?

I would image that the person I am sitting across from would say, I understand that your parents are abusive and you are trying to keep your children safe. What changes do you propose that would help me, a loving caring grandparent, see my grandchildren?

Anyhow, that is my utopia and how I try approach discussions of this nature.

Madgran I think you read too much into what I am saying sometimes because I just end up baffled and wondering where its coming from.

I'm a bit passionate about this topic that's all, I'm not wanting an argument or anything

Violet I haven't suggested you shouldn't "speak the truth about it". I get what you mean, as I have said several times so no , no need to be any clearer!

Freedom thanks for your response.

My question back is, have you considered the viewpoint of those that do not have good and loving grandparents?

Yes I have! All my comment was about was one specific point made that I felt was too generalised, as I read it.

I think it is important to know that when posters like VS and I, and others, post, we aren't here to argue. We too and just trying to make a straight forward balanced point

I don't think I have suggested otherwise really.

If this was a simple as "every Grandparent is loving and caring" then I would support this effort. But that is not true and people who get uncomfortable about it or try to shut down others who do talk about it are actually hindering progress. We have the responsibility to at least be knowledgeable about the possible outcome could be for everyone when we fight to change laws.

I certainly have never suggested that "every grandparent is loving and caring", aside from common sense my own life experiences in various scenarios tells me that. I am not sure that other posters are saying that/thinking that either when they argue for the law to be changed; they may or may not be seeing the bigger picture, but that doesn't mean they think that as a given.

Posters arguing for the law to change do seem to get their posts read sometimes as meaning they think "all grandparents are loving and caring" though , judging by the replies they sometimes get.

Just as others arguing against the law being changed also get assumptions made about their thinking.

I haven't argued either way for the law to be changed or not changed so I will leave others who have to respond to your remaining points.

I do agree freedom

and yes all childrens rights need protecting here

It has to be about the bigger picture

Madgran thank you for you well though out post.

I do want to respond because I think it is important to know that when posters like VS and I, and others, post, we aren't here to argue. We too and just trying to make a straight forward balanced point.

Every time a good loving grandparent who has so wrongly been estranged from a grandchild fights against the rights of parents to make decisions for their offspring, it erodes the ability and rights for us who have been abused to protect our children from abusive grandparents.

I can only speak for myself, but I am sure that VS would agree, I have considered the viewpoint of good and loving grandparents. My question back is, have you considered the viewpoint of those that do not have good and loving grandparents?

I am not asking that expecting you or anyone to answer. I am just hoping that all people in support of this change in law is aware of what the possible ramifications are to the children of abusive Grandparents.

Is this was a simple as "every Grandparent is loving and caring" then I would support this effort. But that is not true and people who get uncomfortable about it or try to shut down others who do talk about it are actually hindering progress. We have the responsibility to at least be knowledgeable about the possible outcome could be for everyone when we fight to change laws.

So, as I asked earlier on this thread, what do the people who want this law changed propose we do to keep the children who DO have abusive grandparents safe?

You simply can not have a discussion about rights to children without discussing the responsibilities we also have to them. This law could very well mean that a good and loving grandparent would be reunited with their Grandchild. But it also means that an abusive Grandparent would be reunited with their Grandchild as well. That deserves consideration.

Well yes

But I wouldn't blame them for not knowing which is why it's important to speak the truth about it

I don't think there is any way I can be any clearer about what I mean

That's not what I was trying to get across though

I think this was in response to my last comment? Apologies if it wasn't.

Points have been made by various posters about how going to court can

*cause stress to parents , passed on to the children
* cause financial difficulties etc, causing hard times to the children
*put children in between warring adults, upsetting the children
*potentially putting children in line to observe arguments etc between parents/Gps
*potentially making children "choose" against their parents wishes

These are just a few examples of potential ramifications mentioned on this or past threads on the same subject. I think that good and loving grandparents might well consider those potential ramifications when trying to make a decision about whether to go to court, as demonstrated by some estranged grandparents on this and other threads who have said they would not go to court because of the impact on the children etc.

I accept you may have been thinking of other ramifications when you made that comment Violet. I read the statement as a bit generalised and think it's fair to say that just as good and loving grandparents may not consider the harm equally they may consider the possible harm.

I am truly not trying to upset anyone here, just making a straight forward balanced point about what may or not be considered by a group made up of so many different people with different circumstances , different experiences and one commonality as "good and loving grandparents*

Sorry VS can you explain your last post not too sure what you mean?

That's not what I was trying to get across though

You can't consider what you don't know.

There is nothing in this petition about it.

At face value it looks like a wonderful idea.

People often don't look at grandparents as ever being a threat the same way they don't look at mothers as ever being a threat.

Too many children and grandchildren know this due to experience but even then, often don't know or can't comprehend the scope because they have been abused.

So why would I or anyone expect people to know or understand when it took me half a life time to understand what had been done to me?

It's not that simple and it's not people's fault if they don't have all the facts

GG65

*They may not, but it seems more likely that good loving ones will consider but may, for whatever reason, decide they should still go ahead*

I don’t know how you could possibly know that?

I can't "know" it, any more than the poster I was responding to who said they " think that good loving grandparents may not consider the possible harm to children going to court" can "know" it. It is my opinion that if they are good and loving it seems more likely they will have considered ramifications, precisely because they are good and loving; others can disagree.