Sign for grandchildren

They may not, but it seems more likely that good loving ones will consider but may, for whatever reason, decide they should still go ahead

I don’t know how you could possibly know that?

No problem Madgran

VioletSky

Oh then I'm not sure why I keep being pulled back in, I have not suggested anyone is a bad person for signing. That would probably be counterproductive on an important issue

Um, I have no idea why you keep being "pulled back in" but in this case I suppose it is because I commented on a specific point you made about "good loving grandparents may not consider the possible harm to children of going to court"

I haven't said that you suggested anyone not signing is a bad person. I just said people will sign or not sign and so be it, which you felt seemed blasé. I explained it wasn't meant to be blasé.

I agreed with you that we have seen estranged grandparents express the same views (I took that to mean the same views as you) I am unclear what I said that meant you felt you had to make the point, but no matter.

I understood that you counsel different avenues to those suggested in the petition, again I was unclear what I said that made you feel you had to make that point, but no matter

Shall we jump off the hamster wheel now and move on?

Again I hope this thread helps all those in this difficult situation in considering their way forward.

This very emotive subject of estrangement needs aired and aired til we’re sick of listening to it. Ive said this before. For too long estranged parents grandparents said nothing hid the pain and the shame. Even though the shame was not theirs to hide.

This was in some cases to protect the child but in doing so the ones who has a hidden agenda ran riot and the children suffered.

If we really have nothing to hide lets open up the can of worms, if we are concerned about what hiding underneath the worms then let’s find a way to expose it and set some of these children parents and grandparents free. Let’s find a way that will benefit all concerned.

Some of the posts here are balanced and you can read the sensible and genuine desire to help those in this situation of estrangement or sensible reasons why court is not the way forward. Others not so much. Cut and paste comes to mind. This helps no one. In fact to me it highlights the need to keep plugging away for shinning a light on and exposing the dirt that’s hidden underneath the noise.

As a grandparent who is estranged from one grandchild but who has others who bring joy and love I know I’m one of the lucky ones. I’ll never give up on my estranged darling grandchild who is so much missed and loved by her family. We will always reserve the right to be concerned about her welfare and will do what ever it takes to from a distance keeps her close to our hearts.

The courts might not be the place to start but anyone who truly has their child’s welfare and other children’s welfare and happiness at heart will understand the desire to end this way of dealing with problems and let kids just be kids and enjoy their granny and grandad.

This is why many give up on these discussions.

It's really not right or fair to assume motivations or others thinking behind their comments and then use that in a round about attempt to try and influence the discussion or others view of it/other participants.

It really saddens me sometimes

I think you're right Madgran "that good loving ones" having thought long and hard may well make the decision to go ahead.

I do find it odd that some posts appear to suggest that good loving grandparents wouldn't want to sign the petition or go to court for contact.

It may well be that when it gets to this point the grandparents no longer believe that a reconciliation with their adult child is possible, so 'risking' that doesn't enter into the equation.

Oh then I'm not sure why I keep being pulled back in, I have not suggested anyone is a bad person for signing. That would probably be counterproductive on an important issue

Again if the understanding is where it needs to be "so be it!" seems a bit blasé

It's not meant to be blasé. I just mean people will sign as they see fit.

I've seen estranged grandparents who I have a lot of respect for give the very same concerns in regards to this topic on this thread and others.

So have I! I was not in my post suggesting otherwise. My point is that on such an emotive topic there will inevitably be widely differing views which will influence both responses and decisions to sign or not sign

.*I can understand the heartbreak some go through and why this could be seen as hope, yet would counsel other avenues*

Yes I know, I am not sure what I have said that suggests I didn't understand the points you have been making re counseling other avenues. Others have also counselled other avenues.

Hopefully all contributions will help those in this situation in their thinking about a way forward.

Again if the understanding is where it needs to be "so be it!" seems a bit blasé.

I don't know that that's right otherwise. I've seen estranged grandparents who I have a lot of respect for give the very same concerns in regards to this topic on this thread and others.

Yes it's emotive and I can understand the heartbreak some go through and why this could be seen as hope, yet would counsel other avenues. Not just for the sake of children but for the sake of themselves and their chances of ever having a real reconsiliation

I do think that good loving grandparents may not consider the possible harm to children going to court

They may not, but it seems more likely that good loving ones will consider but may, for whatever reason, decide they should still go ahead. The "explanations" from people with differing views, appear to have been people not agreeing with each other more than people not listening to explanations, from both ends of the spectrum of views. Inevitable really re the differing views on such an emotive subject.

People will sign or not sign, referencing the OP. So be it!

aged "if that is indeed the case“ is obviously stating that you do not know and made the choice anyway.

I do think that good loving grandparents may not consider the possible harm to children going to court or the possible harm to other children if this door is left open. If they did then why have so many of us spent several pages explaining them? I'll answer my own question, because those ramifications are nit mentioned in the petition or in many of the replies of those who signed.

Grandparents plight who have been cut off unfairly is very different to grandparents who have been cut off for good reason.

It's really difficult because I feel like it's a dead end argument and minds will not change and again, I think that's a shame as my children are not at risk but other children are and I care about them.

Losing contact with a family member

Being at risk of abuse

Again, it's quite obvious which will do more damage to a child.

It's taken me half a lifetime to undo the damage. I would not wish it on anyone

That's meant to say good question not questioning!!

Why wouldn't good loving grandparents consider any ramifications unless they're pointed out?

Good questioning!

I think good loving grandparents would consider all ramifications. They would then decide on balance, from their perspective, what they wanted to do. For various reasons they may decide to go ahead with court, or they may decide not to.
If they decide to go ahead it doesnt mean they haven't considered ramifications, it just means they have decided they should still go ahead. There could be all sorts of reasons for that because circumstances in these cases vary so much, as highlighted in reading through this thread.

Yes it is their decision. There must be genuine concerns "that those who have a significant role in their grandchildren's lives" are not "being given leave to apply to court under the current system" for this petition to have been started.

If that is indeed the case, I am glad to have signed it and hope that the necessary changes are made.

I don't agree that the questions I have asked have been addressed before, as it's only in your last post that I've seen it suggested that loving grandparents need the ramifications pointing out.

I would have been interested to see you expand on your statement that "their plight is so much different". I can only assume you were referring to the plight of grandparents if you're unwilling to answer my questions.

It's all been said already aged and I'm not sure it's really helpful to keep saying it.

If people know the possible negative outcomes and they still want to take the court route that's their decision I suppose.

I genuinely don't think this petition will change the way things stand because of the reasons things are the way they stand.

I am truly sorry to those who lose out because of it but I would hope that those who have a significant positive role in their grandchildren lives would be given leave to apply to court under the current system anyway

I don't understand. Why wouldn't good loving grandparents consider any ramifications unless they're pointed out? I would have thought that a great deal of thought, research and legal advice is undertaken before taking on the expensive and uncertainty of the outcome of going to court.

Their plight is so much different to what?

I see that there are grandparents who have been estranged from their child and grandchildren for years in some cases and I can see why for some, time and patience have there limits.

Why would good loving grandparents consider the ramifications if they aren't pointed out? Their plight is so much different. I would hope that everything will come back to them with time and patience

Yes of course OnwardandUpward, I understand.

Yes I would like to see my GC, (but not if it's going to destabilise my EAC further as that would affect his parenting even more.)

The children come first, with or without me.

I agree trisher and I do have knowledge of the court system but will say no more as as I have already said here, I do not give any information or insight into my personal life.

I think it is good manners not to assume that anyone who has signed this petition has not considered the ramifications of doing so, and/or is entirely ignorant on the subject.

Once again I see you have referred to my imagination which I find rather odd as I am not aware of having given the impression that I imagine all would be resolved if mediation were undertaken.

Of course if the parents and grandparents can reach an amicable agreement a case would not have to go court, that goes without saying.

I have previously stated that only if a child is asked to choose or made to feel that they're making a choice, that would be an issue. It all depends on how the situation is presented to the child.

If presented sensibly and reasonably, the words choice and choose would never be used and are very easily avoided. For example, 'would you like to see your grandparents' is all that needs to be asked, requiring a simple yes or no answer.

Aged I do understand what you mean there and for myself, I did carry that weight even with the support of my older children to estrange

I take on board what you're saying Iam, that said I do get the impression that all the responsibility for whether or not grandparents do go to court is placed on them when for me, it should be equally placed on the parents.

I agree Summerlove that "abusive/chaotic cases are a different kettle of fish" which is why I differentiate between those and cases where that doesn't apply.

Your posts are very moving OnwardandUpward. I hope the day will come when the relationship with your son changes and wish you peace and happiness this Christmas.

I've read on solicitors websites the exact same pitfalls to persuing access through court for a grandparent that have been mentioned

Agedp1953

Is personal experience necessarily a good thing trisher? It seems to me that for some, their personal experiences prevent them from seeing an issue such as this from another perspective.

I never talk about my personal situation and experiences on on line forums such as this and providing I can offer a reasonable point of view, which I believe I have done, I don't think it is relevant. My imagination or indeed lack of one is also irrelevant.

Children will only be asked, if they are age appropriate. Any reasonable and loving parent and grandparent, putting the best interests of a child first, would not allow their child to feel guilty and upset for speaking honestly.

A child would only feel they were choosing between their parents and their grandparents if either made them feel that way.

I don't agree that a child would "suffer emotionally every time they meet" with their grandparents, providing all the adults involved put their personal grievances to one side and prioritise the child.

Agedp1953 Personal experience isn't necessary but if you are signing this petition I think a working knowledge of the court system and what actually happens is desirable. The family court system was set up with all of the best possible intentions, many of which are similar to the ideals set out in your post, unfortunately in disputes ideals tend to be thrown out of the window. What was seen as being a means of settling disputes amicably actually increases animosity. Some solicitors actually encourage and facilitate this, and things escalate.

If the family members were as reasonable as you seem to imagine the matter would never need to come to court anyway and the petition would be unnecessary. If the matter becomes a court issue and the child has to be asked they are actually being asked to choose between their parents and grandparents and it must be stressful for them.

As has already been stated the expense and the huge overload already involved in family court proceedings are also factors.
I really can't see how this petition helps.

As Dr Seuss says "Those Who Mind Don’t Matter, and Those Who Matter Don’t Mind"

Be yourself. Don't let anyone edit you or control you, even if that person is someone you gave birth to.

I also have decided, don't please others, please yourself. At least then someone will always be happy with you. LOL

All anyone can do is what they believe to be right. My son is doing that. I respect his power to choose, even if it doesn't include me. I know that he will face the consequences of whatever choices he makes, as we all do.