Friendship,advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

Oh no Whiff, not another storm......all I can say is roll on spring and a bit of warm sunshine.

I know it's not been a harsh winter but it seems to have been a very looooong one.

It's still blowing a gale here. The garden is waterlogged, hope it doesn't rot the new planting.

Jaffa, I was so upset to hear about your eldest daughters behaviour as it resonates with me. Please do not become her emotional football in order to see your gc. The behaviour will just get worse. As you quite rightly say if it were your husband it would be another matter. A bit of distance would seem to be in order, showing that you have had enough. Would you have spoken to anyone, let alone your own mother as she has? I put up with things for years, big mistake. We do it because we try to find solutions, question ourselves, blame ourselves too, whatever her problems and we all have them, it is not your fault, you are the one that helps her. See who she will call on if you stand back, hopefully she will see how selfish and cruel she has been.
Not for one minute doubt yourself, she is the one out of order.

Ah, I really like your velvet red rope policy DSL - that's a great analogy. It's also much kinder than greyrocking but is a boundary all the same. Lovely idea.

Nice to see you PP. I do hope the headaches ease off soon. I do find crafting a soothing activity. What a sad but honest start to a poem. I look forward to the rest.

I don't understand why anyone would begrudge you grieving for your lost husband and wishing he were still here Whiff.
I was in a wheelchair for a while and my daughter is a wheelchair user. You really don't appreciate how many dangers and difficulties there are till you try it. My family has also had a lot of bad health problems and this is one of the things that has been a big issue for our ES. He really resents the impact our illnesses had on him. (he's the one who has the best physical health).

Hi jaffa. I do feel for you. I was in hospital for 5 weeks and my son did not want to know anything about how I was because it was a stress he didn't need. (our DD rang him but only the once). It's awful that you gave so much to be helpful and got abuse instead of gratitude but I'm afraid it's all too common. Stroppy teenagers is exactly what comes to my mind.

I like that DEEP thing as well DSL and I'm happy to say that although I hadn't heard of it I seem to have found that way of dealing with some of this and it is indeed freeing and gives me a sense of boundary.

Isn't this weather tiresome? I've had enough of winter now. Had one of those annoying days where things seemed to take forever and nothing went quite right then I blinked and the day was gone with a load of things not tackled. Ah well, fresh start tomorrow.

Thanks Hugshelp,

In my quest to learn more about narcissism I did investigate greyrocking but it struck me as being very harsh and unkind. It also has the potential to psychologically damage the person trying to use that strategy. Greyrocking is recommended for short term use only because it is such a high risk strategy, it has to be used with caution, whereas I think the red rope policy can be used indefinitely if necessary.

The thing is true narcissists cannot help what they are, it's a deep rooted personality flaw, one over which they have no control. That's not to say we should allow them to destroy us and the best policy is always to disengage with them and eradicate them from our lives However, sometimes that is just not possible, and we are stuck with them. So we have to learn the best way of interacting with them to minimise the impact they have on us.

What works for me may not work for others but so far I'm finding the red rope policy and the DEEP Method have been the most effective. Narcs are damaged individuals so if we can find a kind way of "handling" them the better will be the results, especially if we can avoid igniting their narcissistic rage.

The red rope policy still allows for friendly easy communication. Playing our cards close to our chest and not revealing our innermost thoughts and feelings allows us a measure of protection. I guess the old "least said, soonest mended" mantra at work. But again, it does take vigilance and it can be tiring to maintain the necessary levels of concentration to avoid slip ups.

But the red rope policy means that conversations can be kept lighthearted and non confrontational by carefully avoiding any contentious subjects. Maybe such conversations might feel rather bland, a bit pointless and somewhat superficial but it's better than nothing. It does at least keep channels of communication open, which can only be a good thing.

The DEEP method serves a similar purpose, neatly sidestepping potential "flashpoints". Harder to implement because when we are unfairly criticised or treated badly it is our natural reaction to try and defend or explain ourselves. DEEP can involve rather a lot of tongue biting. ?.

The royal family have apparently always adhered to the mantra "never complain, never explain", which is really just another form of DEEP. NCNE is something the Queen, Phillip and Anne seem to have fully adopted. The Queen is an expert in maintaining a dignified silence and it's a strategy that seems to have served them well. Charles, Diana, Andrew, Harry and Megan have never seemed to have grasped the concept and we can see the messes they have gotten themselves into over the years. ?. They have all been verbally incontinent and they just can't seem to stop from digging themselves into deep holes.

I'm sure HRH QE2 must have met an awful lot of narcissists in her time. She's probably had to bite her tongue an awful lot over the years. I would love to know some of her inner thoughts but I think she will always remain the soul of discretion.

I keep hoping I will find the magical answer about how to make everything right again. The way it used to be when i felt welcome in their home and included in their lives. I don't understand why my DiL is holding onto this grudge so long? Idk what to do anymore to make it better. Idk how long i have to be punished before i am considered worthy of being in their lives again. I have tried to talk to my son about it but he understandably wont get involved or go against his wife. I've considered calling my DiL's mother and asking for her help or advice. Honestly if the shoe were on the other foot i would be insisting that they allow the other grandmother into their lives. I wouldn't be able to sit back and watch them shun the other grandmother so i wonder what is wrong with her. I've considered asking my other two children to speak to their brother on my behalf but im reluctant to get them involved. About a year ago i went so far as to reach out to my ex (their father) for advice or help and he told me he wouldnt get involved. My father who passed a few months ago reached out to my son without my knowledge but it didnt change anything. I just dont know how long i can go on this way. Then again i dont have a choice so here i am. The loneliness is excruciating at times. The weekends are especially hard - long, quiet, boring - thinking about how different it could be if i was only allowed to visit my son and his family. I used to dream of taking my grandchildren to the park or the zoo, having family bar-b-ques, and sleepovers. But the reality is very different. I'm sorry for moaning. Its all very depressing i know.

My3sons whatever you do don't contact your daughter in law's mom . It will only make matters worse. As her mom won't want to get involved for fear of losing her daughter and grandchildren. Also she may believe everything her daughter has said about you. You will be giving another person reason to hurt you more than you already are. Also don't involve your other children you will be putting them in an terrible position. They see how much you are hurting and they have their own families to take care off. The more people involved the worse it will get. And you will be hurt more.

Unfortunately there is no magical answer to why our children turn against us. They think they are the perfect parents wait until our grandchildren grow up . There are no perfect parents or perfect children. We are human and not robots.

You are not moaning you are hurting . Because we give our children unconditional love from the moment they are born and our whole lives are geared up to taking care and protecting them . When they turn against us it hurts so much and is hard to understand why this happened.

I don't know what's worse having to face this on your own or seeing how much it hurts your husband or partner as well.

When my son threw me away my brother wanted to go round and sort him out. But I said no. To stay out of it. I am lucky my son said zero contact so that's what he has got. I don't know if I could cope with not knowing where I stand like some on here. While it hurts not knowing how he and my grandson's are I would rather hurt than not knowing where I stood.

When my husband died I lost half of myself. My grief for my husband never stops. So what my son and daughter in law have done pales in comparison to that.

You are right we are being punished. I feel I have been tried, convicted and sentenced for a crime I have not ideal what it was I committed. But I will not be anyone's victim . I had enough of being bullied at school. And my in laws where awful .

Concentrate on those who love and care for you and you love and care for. I know it's not easy to let go but you have to protect yourself. How long will you allow your son and daughter in law hurt you? Only you can answer that.

Others here will probably be able to help you more. But to me not knowing where you stand is like Chinese water torture.

We all wish for something we can't have it's called being human. I wish my husband was alive and healthy. But that's stupid wish. I wish I knew the name of my son's youngest but because I don't I have given him one as it hurts to much to think of him as grandson.

But I am happy and live my life to the full . I will not allow estrangement to destroy that. I would be letting my husband, myself and those that love me and who I love down. I have wobbles but I get through them. I can and will not live with what if's . As what if's stop you living. None of us know how long we have on this earth . So we have to choose how we want to live our lives. Like I said it's not easy. But once you decide is like a weight lifted off you.

My3sons how do you want to live your life? You have some hard thinking to do . Wiser people will be able to help you more. As I tend to ramble on and never know if I make sense to others . ?

This has been a depressing weekend but has helped sharing my story with all you ladies on this forum. I am so sorry that we find ourselves in despair at the children we have loved and nurtured all our lives. I would never have anticipated that my daughter would turn on me in my old age. She has made me cry in front of her due to her nasty comments and yet still expects favours and support. I stayed at her house a few weeks ago to look after my little granddaughter who had chickenpox so she could work. Then caught the train home as she has borrowed my car whilst waiting for her new one.
All this weekend I seem to have been reflecting on the situation and going through some very intrusive suicidal thoughts. But I still have my other daughter who I have a mutually loving relationship with and know she would be devastated if she lost me. It is a pity she lives 200miles away but we speak regularly on the phone and meet up halfway for lunch. She doesn't drive and I cannot drive long distances so we both doing trains to meet up.
I have thought on how you all cope and now have the mental image of a red velvet cord protecting me. I can control who enters my space and that is my protection from ongoing abuse from her. We are due to meet up next Sunday as I want to see the grandchildren. So am planning a day out at a farm to see the new lambs. It tends to be very hectic with 2 young children under the age of 6years so the conversations will be short and superficial which is all i can cope with. She has never been unpleasant to me in front of the children so I may not need to be too conscious of my red cord barrier. I certainly will be wary of her though.
Thank you for all your kind supportive comments,they have helped me to see that I am not alone and not the worthless failure of a mother my daughter has accused me of being.

I agree with Whiff My3sons it could be a huge mistake to contact your son's m.i.l. She may well have said that she's not comfortable with the way you are being treated.

I would have had to say something to our ES, in fact ironically I did. Before we were estranged when his wife's relationship with her parents was very shaky, he came round and said if they ever had children he didn't want them to have anything to do with the children.

I told him he was wrong. They would be their children's GP's and if that if he was worried about how they might behave, which he was and with good reason, he could insist that any children were never left alone with them, but had to remember that his in laws are his wife's parents.

The other irony being that despite his very real and understandable concerns, his in laws are the only GP's our GC have.

We know with our DS how terribly hard this situation is for siblings so again, don't get them involved. I know it's hard, we all do but it's better in the long term.

It takes time but very gradually, we spend less time thinking about how things were and how they could be, and more time coming to terms with how things are and how to make the best of them.

It's good to moan, to cry, to scream, to shout. It's one of the reasons this thread has been here for years, 9 at least. It's the place to do it where you know you are safe and not alone.

I'm so pleased that opening up here has been of some comfort Jaffacake. You've had a particularly difficult and upsetting weekend but if you can, take some pride and comfort in the knowledge that you got through it.

DSL mental image of that red velvet rope is a good one. One of mine, yes I have a few, is thinking about our home which we moved too 5 years ago because of our estrangement, being in a snow globe. You know the ones you see at Christmas.

This is my 'safe place'. Our ES has never been here, never sent a vile email or text, or made a nasty 'phone call so for me, this house is free from contamination and the only pain is that which we brought with us, so not directly from him.

Meeting at a farm is a brilliant idea, as is having short and superficial conversations. Think about that red rope. Your CG can enter your space, but your D can't and yes, be on your guard. It will be exhausting as DSL can attest too but it's what you need to do.

Another one I use is 'seeing' the person who is trying to rile and goad me as throwing a ball. Just because someone throws a ball to you, doesn't mean you have to catch it. Let it drop at your feet and don't even waste your time trying to kick it away, just let it stay there untouched, unresponded too and ignored.

Not easy as I've re discovered the past couple of months but well worth the effort.

Thank goodness you can now see that you are not a "worthless failure of a mother" and just as importantly, that you are not alone.

Good morning my dear friends.

Jaffa, my3sons......good to see you posting. It's the best thing you can do at the moment.....keep posting here, keep talking to us. Let us draw together to help and support one another. We're all sisters under the skin here, all at varying stages of our journey. Please remember you are not alone. ??.

Jaffa. You most definitely are not worthless, and you are not a failure. You have been a loving supportive mother, going beyond the call of duty to help your daughter. That she responds the way she has done is all about her, not you.

Please don't torture yourself with this. Be the better person. Rise above her pettiness and cruelty. Don't get embroiled. Be gracious, be dignified. Whenever she starts on you, either change the subject or get up and leave. She will eventually get the message.

It's hard I know but you simply cannot let bullying go unchecked. You have to fund a way of asserting yourself and reclaiming your power. If you can, bear the following in mind,

1. You dont have to show up for every argument. Dont engage.

2. If you allow yourself to be a doormat, then don't be surprised if people walk all over you.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I think there comes a time when we just have to draw a line and say enough is enough. A time when the appeasing has to stop, when we have to stop kowtowing and enabling their outrageous demanding behaviour,

Try not to worry about next weekend. Try not to let your anxiety overshadow a fun day out, A trip to the farm with your grandchildren sounds wonderful and as you say, you can keep any conversations light and cheerful. Just concentrate on having a fantastic time with the children, ignore any jibes from your daughter and dont be drawn into any "dark spaces".

I know this might be a case of faking it till you make it but I think you need to draw a line in the sand, no more crying in front of your daughter, plaster on a big smile even if it's fake.

You need to reclaim your power by putting on a good show. Get dolled up, wear make up. Let her think that you are happy and living a good life, exude confidence, radiate happiness and joire de vie. Give an Oscar winning performance. Yes it will be exhausting but it will pay dividends,

Your perceived happiness will make her think twice, it might unnerve her and put her on the back foot. Alternatively it might help her relax a little so she lets up on her war of attrition with you.

And, more to the point, your grandchildren will love being with their bouncy fun grandma. Be the slightly naughty fun loving glamourous grandma. The more pleasurable you make the day, the more your grandchildren will want to repeat the experience. They are of an age now where they will be able to start asking their mum "when can we see granny again".

Did you know the original meaning of the word "glamour" is in actual fact "magic". I was never a beauty but I learned the power of using glamour to create the illusion of beauty and to weave magic, Never underestimate the power of dressing well and showing up as your best possible self. Being alluring isn't just for the young, it isn't just about dating. Being alluring is about being appealing to others, not by being a people pleaser but by being authentic and happy in your own skin.

The great Oscar winning Hollywood costume designer Edith Head said "you can be anything you want if you dress the part".

Sounds bonkers I know, but dress the part of a classy, glamourous, sophisticated woman and people will treat you like one. Dress like a boring nondescript drudge and people will treat you like one. People will always treat us the way we allow them to treat us.

And yes, you've guessed, I've learned the hard way.....?

Jaffacake glad you no longer feel alone. You have us now. It's hard when you think you are the only one this has happened to. How awful she made you cry in front of her. Mind you if my son turned up on my doorstep I don't know if I would hit him or hug or probably both and burst into tears. Then ask what he wanted. Before I let him in.

Please for your sake and those that love don't ever think suicidal thoughts again. That's not the answer. You have shown courage by posting on here and talking about your situation. I know how hard that was to write that first post . It's hard to admit your child has turned against you. But talking about how you feel and what your daughter has put you through gets easier. Because by writing it down it gets those thoughts out of your head.

Think I have said before but if you look at any street how many people are going through the same thing. There are 42 bungalows in my road one of my neighbours is estranged from his son. He's 95 and hasn't seen or spoken to his son in 5 years. Luckily he has a daughter. My window cleaner is estranged from his 6 siblings. Estrangement in families is very common it's just become a taboo subject. But it shouldn't be. It's like cancer when I was young people would say someone had the big C. Now cancer is talked about all the time.

I am glad you will be seeing and spending time with your grandchildren going to a farm to see the new lambs will be lovely. Just concentrate on your grandchildren and ignore any digs she will make at you. I know it's hard. But you are not your daughter's punching bag.

You are stronger than you think. And you have a coping plan in place. ?

QuoteMy3sons123 Tue 22-Feb-22 03:38:30

I reached out to my estD's m.i.l, but then realised she was the driving force, along with her son, at getting me permanently cut out. She even wrote the court statement and was so chuffed to tell me so when I lost the court case to visitations rights to see my GC. I reached out to everyone, but everyone on my side said the same, 'back off and wait' but I couldn't do that, could now, looking back, knowing from this page what needed to be done. But in the 'eye of the storm' I was in turmoil!

My3 sons......

I went back to yiur first thread to refresh my memory about yiur situation. Like me you are a widow and like me you also lost close family members in quick succession, your husband, your parents and your brother. So much grief and sorrow, no wonder you are struggling.

Add the difficulties you are experiencing with yiur DIL and it's no wonder you are feeling so low.

Can I just ask.......how long ago did you lose your husband and family. Also how long is it since you have seen your skn and DIL. You say you are not fully estranged but living in limbo, not knowing when you will see them again. That at least is a positive, the door is still open......

I would also strongly advise you not to ask anyone to intervene on your behalf. Do not involve your other children in this matter and do not approach your DILs. Mother.

Please please do not involve any third parties, it will only enrage your DIL and make matters a thousand times worse. It may be possible to heal the rift but it will take time and patience and yes probably a lot of effort on your part. But the good thing is you are not estranged. There is hope.

You have an awful,lot of your plate, simply working through your grief will be painful and you will be left feeling drained and exhausted, lost and helpless. It's not for everyine but have yiu thought about grief counselling or joining a bereavement group. Covid is easing uo now, is there something in your area.

Re trying to re-establish a relationship with your DIL. I'm assuming here that you haven't yet been given a no contact demand.

How long is it since you have been in contact, what was it like, was there an argument or upset or was it ok ish and it's just been a long time. Are you currently on the receiving end of the silent treatment,

If you do want to try and make contact are you ready for the work, do you feel are strong enough to cope with being rejected if she stonewalls you.

Obviously someone has to make the first move. It might be better to leave the ball in her court and let her be the one to initiate contact, on the other hand you could perhaps just try a simple text. The recent storms are a good excuse.

You could try Just a simple text message message to say something like "hope you are all ok, and you haven't had any storm damage". No questions which require an answer or which could be seen as demanding a response. That way she won't feel pressured.

Just a simple message to basically say hope all is well and leave it at that. Don't follow up with further messages, you don't want to be accused of stalking.

But whatever you do, do not attempt to enlist the help of other family members. This has to be just between you and your DIL.

Still cold and miserable here.

My3sons and Jaffacake I shared a poem s few days ago, 'The Journey' by Mary Oliver, it's at the bottom of page 6 on this thread and I think you'll find it very meaningful. I keep it on my fridge and read it on the days I'm finding it hard to cope.

"in the eye of the storm, I was in turmoil" brilliantly expressed Yogin.

I read the poem and it is fabulous!

No one could have told me that I was going to go through such hell with my eldest children. I felt so alone until I read others on this wonder site. You have all given me strength at a time when I felt like the walls were all falling in on me.

I did tell my youngest son about the phone call with his half brother in December and he was thoroughly disgusted.

At least I am still in touch with the grand children, in fact I have my daughters 2 wonderful girls to stay here on Saturday night. I have all the paints and crafts ready for them to use. The youngest is an excellent knitter (taught by me) and the eldest is a really great artist. Thankfully they text.

It must be wonderful to be able to pass on what you know and learned to your GC Purplepixie.

Not sure what I could have past on to our GS's if I'd had the chance. Certainly wouldn't have been knitting even if they'd been interested, because despite my maternal GM and mum both being excellent, and despite their best efforts, I was never any good.

Smiless The snow globe and the ball throwing mental images are really resonating strategies to help. I certainly have been using the ball throwing one a lot over the last few months ...and having the ball land at my feet instead of catching it is proving very effective!!

I would recommend it to both those estranged to help them with their emotions and to those who are not but who have difficult relationships to "deal" with .

Jaffa Noone is "worthless"! You have clearly tried to help your daughter . To be honest even if you have done things you now regret, her response to the problem as she sees them does nothing to help either herself or you.

Use the "drop the ball" image to help you not to rise to goading remarks. If necessary get up and leave .... show that although you want to help etc that is not at the expense of your dignity and mutual respect! It is difficult, it is scary but it is also empowering. I can recommend it as a strategy!

TBH Madgran I'd forgotten how useful the ball throwing one was until recently. It's helpful to have a mental image of the person throwing the ball throwing especially when there's no face to face contact.

My3sons I agree with others that it would not be wise to involve anyone else in the problem, whether your other sons or your DILs mother.

It seems the problem lies between yourself and your DIL; (and your son?) You have said that you know you made mistakes and you have apologised but it appears that these have not been accepted. You say that "your every word and action is monitored and judged", that you "feel inferior and slighted" and "ignored and dismissed".

Think about those words that you used about how you are feeling and put them in the context of being made to feel like that when you are grieving for the *recent loss of your spouse, your brothers and your parents!!*

Now consider whether you are worth more than that level of unkindness, whatever you may or may not have done that caused the original upset (which you have acknowledged and apologised for!)

On that basis try to decide a way forward for yourself that enables you to take some control of your own life, despite the behaviours. Some options might be:

1. a simple friendly text as suggested by DSL - just asking if everyone is ok after the storms or whatever
2. sending a post card occasionally, saying the same thing
3. proactively telling them that you realise they no longer wish to have contact with you, that you are sorry for any actions that have caused this, that you hope that one day they will feel able to make contact and that you are here when they are ready...putting the ball in their court!
4. do nothing , just wait, and then actively planning changes in your own life to make it a new life without them, if necessary - another way of putting the ball in their court, but No. 3 might make you feel more in control!

Do keep posting here for support , understanding and advice as you go through such a painful, regretful and grieving time

Smileless2012

TBH Madgran I'd forgotten how useful the ball throwing one was until recently. It's helpful to have a mental image of the person throwing the ball throwing especially when there's no face to face contact.

It's very useful when there is face to face contact too Smileless

Yes I can imagine, useful and satisfying.

As you know its 22.02.2022 today. Apparently it is a most auspicious day, , bringing good luck and good fortune.

Well one of my front crowns has just dropped out, so maybe not that auspicious for me. Ah well dentist tomorrow. #toothless old hag, lol.

Smiles......Love the ball at the feet analogy. A great visual. And the cosy snow globe is just darling. I too regard my home as my sanctuary.

Pixie.....you are right. Being estranged from either of my children or experiencing difficulties in maintaining good healthy relationships was just something that simply never occurred to me. Never in my wildest imaginings did I think such a thing could happen. That's why I was left reeling with shock and disbelief.

We are more or less 100% sure that we are likely to outlive our parents, so whilst their deaths are sad, they are inevitable and we are primed for that eventuality. Similarly there is a 50/50 chance that our much loved partners may die before us , so whilst we are shaken to the core when it happens, there is always a small part of our brain that computes the mathematical odds and so, although we might be shocked, we aren't necessarily surprised because we were always subconsciously aware that it could happen.

But estrangement is another matter entirely, especially when it comes out of the blue. That's why it hits us so badly, why we feel such shock and why we experience such difficulty in coming to terms with it,

I think, the second thing is that the grief we feel at estrangement, is complex and complicated, with unanswered questions, how, why, etc. Our grief may also be compounded with guilt, regret, "could I have done better", "was it my fault" and so on.

Death by comparison is easier, because not only is it final and we have closure, but usually the grief is simple and "pure". There is grief, pain and loss, but usually no guilt or resentment, especially when you have had time to say goodbyes.

Estrangement seems to be a pain which never really goes away.....

I need to confess that I cried with laughter when I read your post @ 16.24 DSL or should I say #toothless old hag but only because I don't believe you're either toothless or an old hag.

"Estrangement seems to be a pain which never really goes away" if only it would.

I really feel for you My3sons123, and I think whiff's response says it all very eloquently. And some great comments from madgran as well.

Keep posting, and remember we're all behind you Jaffa.

Busy day for me and ready for a knit and some telly.