Friendship,advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

I think that's a conversation to have with your DS Elless. As we found, you don't have to move a great distance to start that new chapter in your life, but I understand that unless you did, moving isn't going to be option until you feel distance wont be an issue.

You're absolutely correct Madgran, that 'goodbye' email was my way of taking back control and putting an end to the waiting and hoping that things would change. It was the same with our move.

He'd already estranged us but the email and the move were to draw a line under those 4 years of pain and hopeless waiting for things to change.

It will be interesting, when the time comes DS to see their reaction when they know you've put your house on the market. Both our sons were shocked at our decision. DS bless him thought if we stayed just down the road, our close proximity to his brother would increase the possibility of change.

You couldn't make it up could you PP. Our ES moved just up the road so I could provide child care and that never happened. You didn't move away so you could see your GC and have hardly seen them.

It's good that you're feeling stronger. Whatever their grievances may be, they have no right to treat us like rubbish.

I wouldn't mind going grey Elless but the only places my hair goes grey is at the temples and it looks awful. If I could wake up one morning and be grey all over, I don't think I'd be that bothered.

That sounds like the perfect attitude and plan DSL

The baking sounds wonderful Whiff and a lovely way to remember your husband's birthday. Your garden sounds lovely. Ours is north facing and shaded - something I will definitely avoid when we move - so our daffs and crocuses are just stumps atm. The primroses are looking pretty but not much else yet.

Well said PP To Hell with anyone who treats you rubbish.

Good advice Madgran77 I found taking back control very alarming at first now I am feeling it actually healing and calming. I do not have to put up with their moods or controlling natures. Also sick of being told that I have been a rubbish gran and parent. No child comes with a manual! I wasn’t allowed to be a good gran as I had to book an appointment to see them. I feel agrieved when I think back to how much I have put up with in the past. Onward and upward and don’t look back in anger!

Take back control by doing nothing and just letting go. Taking control by changing my mindset. Not drifting, because I am moving forward with my own plans, but, as you say, just letting go in my mind

Yes ..taking control rather than waiting dangling, in whatever way works for you ! Well done derbyshirelass

Sorry if this is a bit late but I have had a busy couple of days, making cards, crochet tops for grand daughters etc. Good to hear that your move went well Smileless. I am sure you will be glad that you did it.

DH wanted to move from here a few years back and I said that I couldnt do it as I wouldn’t see much of the grand kids if I did. Well, I wish I had gone along with it as I haven’t seen much of them over the last few years anyway.

Great post also Whiff and sorry that I haven’t read everyone’s posts yet. I will get around to it though.

I have felt a lot stronger over the last few days as well. To hell with them as they have treat me like rubbish in the past - no more!!!!!

Forgot to say Whiff my son who lives with us is 25, if we moved we would like to go some distance, maybe Scottish Borders so he couldn't come with us because of work.

Thank you for the advice everyone. DSL I've booked a haircut tomorrow, I wouldn't suit short hair but I am going to keep it chin length while I grow out my colour because I'm taking the plunge and going grey.
Whiff I know you say you don't believe in things but I genuinely believe your husband visited you because he appeared in your dream, the fact that it was his birthday too makes it so poignant.

LoveOc. Posts crossed. ❤️❤️

LoveOc.

Thanks for that. You have said it so much better than I did,. Take back control by doing nothing and just letting go. Taking control by changing my mindset. Not drifting, because I am moving forward with my own plans, but, as you say, just letting go in my mind.

Basically reclaiming my head space and my life. .

Derbysgirelass Well done! Taking control is 'in one's mind' isn't it? Sooo hard to do!! I really think that is where our happiness lies.

Hello everyone

Thank you so much for all your support and advice re being kept "dangling". I have had a good chat with my younger son and I've also been watching some narcissism videos on you tube. Very helpful.

I have made a decision...

..I am not going to be the one to cut ties, if they want to do it it's up to them. I am going to allow them to visit me occasionally and I will visit them if invited but I will continue to set boundaries and I won't reschedule my life to accommodate them. No more being a doormat. If they don't like the more assertive me, then tough. I like her, ?

I have also decided that I won't go to a lot of trouble, killing the fatted calf and spending most of the visit cooking and then clearing up, Instead I will keep things simple and save my energy and just enjoy my grandchildren. I'll sling them some pizza, no more slaving in the kitchen for m. They treat my home like a restaurant where they enjoy a slap up meal and then leave me with the clearing up. Well from now on it will be more like a pizza parlour. ??

I will not make contact, the ball is in their court, it is now six weeks since I have seen them. My younger son hasn't seen his brother for nearly a year now. It's a sorry state of affairs but the more I learn about narcissism the more I realise that my DIL is never going to change.

As for my son, well he will either wise up or he won't. I have done all I can and I'm not going to waste any more of my time worrying about how I can improve our relationship. It's not up to me, it's up to him to mend fences but frankly he's changed so much I doubt that we have any real common ground now.

TBH I don't really miss my son now and I certainly don't miss my DIL. Life is much more peaceful without her drama. I'll just concentrate on my grandchildren as and when (if) I get the opportunity to see them.

It's my time now.

Haircut today and more dec,uttering, maybe a bit of gardening if it's warm enough.

Thanks again for all your kind thoughts and words, very much appreciated, ❤️❤️

Elles and Derbyshirelass I realise only 'one' can decide what is best for them or anybody really. I do now think from my own personal experience that doing 'nothing' can be taking back control. for me taking back control came from in my mind. Moving away, writing letters does not have to be the answer? Let things go, go with the flow a bit, see what happens. It is in our minds that holds all the hurt. Does that make any sense to you/ I thought at one time we may well become estranged as things became so bad. If we do not let the things that happen bother us so much in our daily lives then we can be happy with out lives. As the saying goes, the ones who care less have all the control. Just giving another opinion and perspective to people trying so hard to avoid terrible loss and hurt.

DerbyshireLass and Elless you are both perfect examples of Warrior Queens. The strength you both show is an inspiration . The way you are both kept dangling is truly awful. I got off lightly by my son saying zero contact at least I know where I stand.

I often wonder how are children would cope if their children treated them the way they are treating us . Some how don't think they would cope at all.

I woke up this morning dreaming about my husband. Which I very rarely do. I suppose because I talk to him every day and still see him at times. I don't believe in ghosts it's just seeing him gives me comfort. And at times I need that. I haven't any videos of him. The moment he died I forgot what he sounded like. But can still hear how he would say things. Same with my dad and mom. Does anyone remember Ronny Barker's Clarence. My dad was so much like that character minus the bad eye sight.

As it would have been my husband's 65th birthday and he loved cakes and biscuits . I made some Viennese biscuits yesterday and filled them with chocolate fudge icing to take to my exercise class for when we have our drink. Means I get a treat. But will leave any left with my instructor's to pass on to my old class.

Reading everyone's stories and talking to people here about estranged makes me wonder how many of my old neighbours and friends where going through the same thing. As estrangement seems to be a hidden problem. But slowly it's coming out if the shadows . Apart from Smiles appearance on This morning has there been any programmes about it?

One of my friends at craft group loves knitting socks. She uses 4 double ended needles. How she doesn't drop the stitches fascinates me. Another is knitting a Swedish pattern for a cardigan which you have to knit some panels sew them back and cut through all the stitches to make the opening. Can't wait to see how that works.

For those wanting to lose weight can I recommend the Pears sequel part 3 wow thread. We are a varied lot of fruits. NanKate who started it has renamed dieting eating less for life. Which is a better way to think of it .

Hopefully the storms have died down everywhere for a while. I have crocuses open and daffodils about to open. My twisted hazel is full of buds. Spring is on its way.

Glad your move went smoothly Smiles. My son only lives 40 mins away by car but we are in different parts. Even have different councils. I never need to go too his part of the county. Christmas didn't even go into the city as I didn't need to. I got everything on line or locally. So no chance I will ever see him . Which I am glad of as I would hate for him to ignore me. I have been thinking about how I would react after reading Elless's posts and honestly don't know. Perhaps I would do what my mom and dad did with my future in law's. My husband and I where going on our first holiday together camping. His dad came round to tell my mom and dad they shouldn't let their daughter go on holiday with his son as you know what they will be up to. I was sitting on the stairs listening. My dad sent him away with a flea in his ear saying they trusted his son more than he did and a few other choice words. For 2 years his parents if they saw my parents they crossed the road but my mom and dad shouted and said hello very loudly using their names and waving asking how they where as they walked quickly away. Dad the devil was behind them at a till and they couldn't escape he talked non stop to them. Dad took great pleasure in telling us all about it . After his childhood wow betide anyone who threaten his families happiness.

It's funny the things that pop into my mind. But most things are happy memories.

Well better get into the shower as early out today.

Take care everyone . ?

I love knitting socks Socksandsocks01. Hope you get as much pleasure out of it.

I love your thoughts on decluttering your mind as well as your home whiff. It's inspiring me to get back to it. We've been pottering on with repairs for a while, ready to sell our house and find a bungalow. We couldn't get anyone to come and do some work on the cellar so we've been having a go ourselves. Slow and imperfect but we should get there and it is only a cellar...
And absolutely this: living a happy life fully estranged, or living a miserable one waiting to see if they want me

The way you are being treated is awful derbyshirelass - nobody should hold your life to ransom that way. Yet it's totally understandable when you love them that they do. I think you are so right in putting your own plans first. If they want you they can make time when it suits you all.

We're all with you as you get through the week and past Friday. x

I'm so glad your move brought you the peace of mind you needed smiles.

I really don't know what is going on with your ES Elless. I hope that it is just that he's confused himself.

I am really confused at the moment because he gives me glimmers of hope (like waving when he drove past)

Elless that inconsistency suggests that he is also confused to be honest. Would it help you to make a decision about how YOU are going to behave if he drives past any time so that you are prepared? You can decide you will always smile and wave or always nod in acknowledgement or whatever suits you. Alternatively you could decide to always just ignore him.

At least then you might feel very slightly more in control of the situation for yourself rather than having a sense of "waiting to see" what he is going to do each time?

DerbyshireLass similarly do you think you could find a way that works for you to take control of what is happening to you for your own well being. You have already done that to some extent with the way you have dealt with things and with your future plans. But maybe not so much in terms of the impact of the "cat and mouse" on deciding next steps etc.

That might be writing to them/speaking to them regarding what is happening, why they are behaving as they are. It might be writing/speaking to them about what is happening and what YOU plan to do. It might be deciding to estrange from them, having told them you can't/are unwilling to put up with with the "cat and mouse".

Only you can decide the right way to take control of what is being done/how you are being treated, for your own well being so that you are not just in permanent "limbo land" wondering which way things will go next according to what THEY decide rather than according to what YOU decide.

Smileless comment about sending her ES a "goodbye email* is a version of what I describe as she was taking control rather than waiting to see what happened next from their choice, rather than hers.

I truly hope that you can both find your own versions of that Elless and "DerbyshireLass*

Elle’s, I know how you feel I’m afraid if you have no alternative but to stay where you are, and why shouldn’t you, you didn’t ask for any of this, you have to try to be more confident in yourself and do things that give you pleasure, book a holiday, make a happy life. You can’t spend your life worrying about him. You didn’t choose this, you did your best, it’s him that needs to be feeling awkward not you. You can do it. I know you need to consider your son, have you ever broached the subject of moving with him, he might be up for it if he’s in a rut, you never know. Maybe if he knew how much it meant to you he could be very supportive. It’s worth a try. Good luck.

Elless how old is the son who lives with you? And have you mentioned your desire to move ?

I can fully understand all of what you say, I am desperate to move but with one son still at home and not even in a relationship I can't move until I know he is settled and happy so I'm stuck with my ES (who has just made home improvements so I know intends to stay where he is) living just up the lane. I am really confused at the moment because he gives me glimmers of hope (like waving when he drove past) but I really don't feel that we couldn't ever have a good relationship again because he has changed so much and his opinions and beliefs are so different to ours and I know we would disagree over things so much. Half of me yearns for my son back yet half of me knows it will never work so I should just let go. I think moving house would be the absolute best thing to do and make a fresh start but as I said it's not possible yet, I just feel in limbo and really envy all of you who have moved.

I wonder if it might be an idea to write to them DSL based on what you've said in the 6th paragraph of your post @ 9.50 this morning.

This game of 'cat and mouse', this psychological war fare that they're engaged in is emotional abuse and is clearly impacting on your physical and mental health.

You need to give this some serious thought. There is the possibility that as you say, you may be cutting off your nose to spite your face. On the other hand, it might enable your son to think seriously about the distinct possibility that he will never have his mum in his life again.

All the time they can blow hot and cold, go for periods of no contact and then be able to see you when it suits them, leaves you in this impossible situation that with the best will in the world, the boundaries you're working so hard to put and keep in place, will not protect you from.

A couple of months before we moved, I sent our ES a 'goodbye' email. His response was so full of anger and bitterness that when I'd read it, I knew I had done the right thing so I replied and thanked him for showing me that that was the case.

We now live 28 miles away. Not very far at all but the peace the move has given us over the last 5 years is so great, that we could have moved to the other side of the world.

They know the seaside town we're living in. We used to bring our boys here for days out and even for holidays. We've never seen them here and I'm confident that we never will.

We did think 2 years ago about moving to live near our DS but he's in Aus. which was a step too far.

Oh dear so many typos......I'm too tired really for writing,

That first sentence should read.....I'm glad your move was so successful. And living close to your son.

Sorry.

So glad that yiur I've was so successful, Smiles. Living so close to her son must have been pure torture,

Can I ask how far away did you move to. This is something I'm wrestling with. Do I stay relatively close by just in case I can see my son and grandchildren or do I move further away. I currently live about 15 minutes away by car depending on the traffic.

I just can't decide ......

Wow, Whjff. Amazing post, so much of what you've said resonates, especially your description of your son and DILs behaviours, the lateness, the rudeness, the cancellations, the snide remarks, the not so subtle little digs, the thinly veiled insults. I get all of that on a regular basis, there isn't one visit or get together that doesn't have that undercurrent going on.

The bit about living a happy life fully estranged, or living a miserable one waiting to see if they want me......OMG Whiff, you have really got me thinking this Morning.

I woke up in the middle of the night having a bad dream about my son and DIL. This morning I feel so tired, and very unsettled. My mind is in a turmoil, my stomach is in knots again. There is part of me that just wants them to estrange me and be done with it. At least I might get some mental peace if that happened. As it is I feel like I'm living in limbo, stuck in no man's land.

Each weekend I think to myself will they or won't they contact me this weekend. Will I see them, And increasingly I find myself almost dreading them visiting me, whilst of course desperately wanting to see my grandchildren.

I genuinely don't know what is best, whether to cut my losses and estrange them or whether to continue to limp along. Would it just be cutting my nose off to spite my face or would it be a chance for me to restore my peace of mind and sense of equilibrium. Would a clean surgical cut be my best option or do I allow the situation to drag on and on. Can I really face years and years of this.

I have been patient, tolerant and forgiving - overlooking their rudeness, their selfishness and the hurt they have caused me. How long is one supposed to continue turning the other cheek. In the hope they might improve their attitude and behaviour, This "wait and see" policy is becoming increasingly unsatisfactory.

Hey ho, I'm not about to anything rash but I can feel my Patience is starting to wear very thin.

This coming Friday would have been our 39th wedding anniversary so I'm feeling fragile, not the right time to make such a momentous decision so I'll let it ride for now, I do take your point though Whiff "what if" is no way to live.

For now the ball is in their court.....I certainly won't be chasing them. I am going to just going to concentrate on putting my plans into action, starting with moving house and improving my health and fitness.

And your right Whiff, there is comfort in this thread and knowing I'm not alone. I just need to keep busy and stop ruminating. The past is gone......

More kitchen decluttering today. Free up space in my home and my mind,.

The actual move went very well Whiff. I thought it would be a huge wrench, leaving the village where we'd raised our family and the home we'd made but it was the exact opposite.

I agree that it helped to declutter my mind. I'd already become detached emotionally because of our estrangement. I've always invested a lot of my time in keeping our home looking lovely, and enjoyed doing so, but I fell 'out of love with it' and everything connected with it became a chore rather than a joy.

I got no pleasure or comfort from the memories we'd made there over 25 years. I suppose in a way I resented them because I knew our lives had changed irrevocably.

I still remember that wonderful sense of anticipation when we woke up here that first morning, despite the huge amount of unpacking we had to do.

The house had been a joiners work shop, converted into 2 so the interior was new, refurbished, all white walls and carpeted throughout.

At the end of that first very busy week, I broke down as the damn that had been holding back so much pain, finally gave way. I remember the look of horror on Mr. S.'s face as he asked me if I was regretting the decision to come here, but it wasn't regret, it was relief.

Having spent 4 years living just down the road from them, and even closer to the childminder they'd used, the relief of knowing I'd never see them and even our only GC was overwhelming.

I felt safe, and still do.

Allsorts that was a lovely post. Once we become mom's we lose ourselves get so wrapped up in looking after the family. And always putting their wants and needs first. I remember my mom saying when I was a baby money was tight and when it came to a choice of nappy cream or shampoo for her . Nappy cream won and she washed her hair in soap.

I suppose it's like that for us we have a choice . But the choice is to live a happy full life without our estranged children or a miserable one waiting to see if they decide they want us.

My son may my choice easy zero contact. Doesn't stop me loving him and my grandson's and missing them . But means I can live the life I want.
I have never been I want person. Put others before myself everytime. Like I have said after my mom died no one was dependent on me. Getting jaundice was my wake up call. Don't recommend finding out you could have died but that cemented what I had already decided to do with my life while I was recovering.

It's amazing like DerbyshireLass is finding how therapeutic decluttering is. But it can also be upsetting as well when you come across things you had forgotten. My decluttering started December 2017 just my books to start with. I knew I wanted to put my house on the market in March. But didn't go into full declutter mode until then. Once I had decided what sort of new home I wanted . Went round the house ear marking furniture and things to get rid of. Making lots of lists. As soon as I accepted an offer and shortly afterwards found my bungalow I started packing . Got my boxes from eBay and brought 200m of bubble wrap . Removals companies would only supply boxes a few days before you moved. As I was doing it myself I needed to be organised. So I sent myself a target of 3 boxes a day to pack and decluttering as I went.

My son emptied my loft for me. And I sent most of the boxes to the charity shop without opening them. As some of them had been up there since before my husband died. Decided if I didn't want the things in that time they had to go.

Once I decided to sell I detached myself from the house in my mind. To be honest it had become a mill stone round my neck. I rattled round it.

Smiles don't know if your move went without a hitch . But know you and Mr S are glad you did it. Mine didn't go smoothly but the main thing is I am here now .

I love my par downed home. Why we hoarded the things we did I don't know.

I have been thinking about this a lot and may sound nuts but estrangement is sort of decluttering. But in a different way. For years I put up with my son letting me down never important things but little things like saying they where coming to visit and changing their mind or when I came up here they suddenly couldn't see me or was hour or 2 late coming for me. And my daughter in law's rudeness going out when I visited or when they visited me sitting crocheting . In my old house she used to talk while she did it but when I visited it was an excuse not to talk to me. Also her snide comments about my daughter. Which I just ignored.

Since having zero contact I haven't had to put up with being let down ,rudeness or snide remarks. In a way it's decluttered my mind from having to put up with it . Weird I know. But that's me. I am a what you see is what you get sort of person.

Life is hard especially as we get older and our bodies play up. What's if's is not the way I chose to live my life. Like I said I existed in my old house. Moving means I finally live the life I should have been doing for years. Also means I lost my son and grandson's . But I don't regret moving one bit. He chose to throw me away his choice not mine. I didn't even see it coming.

For me decluttering not only mean decluttering my home but also my mind. And am happy I did both. Have wobbles but know I can get through them. As per usual rambled on. But knowing you are all here means I am not alone and I cherish that. ❤️

Please we have you back smiles. My aims this year are also to lose weight. Keep off the sugary stuff as I'm prediabetic now. And last but not least learn to knit socks.