Friendship,advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

You could take that trick on the stage hugshelp but seriously, how annoying I mean what were the odds of that happening, very slight I'd have thought. I hope your boot's dried out.

The garden centre sounds like just the place to try out your new walking boots Whiff, you'll probably have to break them in a bit before going on any long walks.

Oooh Yogin you temptress, putting delicious ideas into my head.

That must have been hard to swallow DSL, knowing it was all for show. When I read what some of you have been and continue to be subjected too, I realise how lucky we were.

Never knew our GC so no relationship to mourn, only the 'what if's'. ES's wife was so good at putting on her act, we had no idea what was coming and had believed that all her behaviour up to that point was genuine. It was as sudden and shocking when it happened as it was brutal, so no 'egg shell' walking for us, no tongue biting and no not knowing whether we were coming or going when arranged get together's were cancelled at the last minute.

No living with no contact for extended periods of time, not knowing if or when we'd ever hear from him again or ever see our GC.

Your mum was right Madgran, but it's just so unnatural to have not even the simplest, smallest expectation of your own AC isn't it; unnatural and so terribly sad.

Your mum was right Madgran, but it's just so unnatural to have not even the simplest, smallest expectation of your own AC isn't it; unnatural and so terribly sad

Indeed!

Smiles I never saw it coming either. No warning. But I got to know and love my grandson's they where a joy to be with. But they will have forgotten me by now. And I don't even know their little brothers name.

But at least I have photos of his brothers but know they won't look like that anymore. But I have my memories of the fun we had together. Which brings me joy and sadness in equal measure.

But I know my limits and zero contact is helping me cope. I couldn't put up with constant abuse. I am only human after all and have feelings.

That's what I mean Whiff, we were spared getting to know and love our GC, the eldest being only 8 months the last time we saw him, and having never met his brother.

You lost that relationship when you lost your son, we never had that relationship to lose. That's the trouble with memories isn't it, they bring you joy but sadness too.

Tbh I don't think there is anythjng "natural" about an AC rounding on their parents, unless of course that child was abused in some way. That's an entirely different matter and a child would be justified in their action.

But, from what I'm seeing on this thread and from what I have been able to gather from talking to friends who have been estranged, this is just not the case.

A few years ago my son actually thanked me for his wonderful childhood. He said it had been idyllic, that he was fortunate to have such loving and generous parents, that he had seen how happy my husband and I were together. He said he wanted to experience the same kind of happy marriage and to emulate the same happy home life with his own family. He wanted his to have what he had had, Part of that childhood entailed regular contact with both sets of grandparents.

So, if that's the case, why am I now persona non gratis, has widowhood made me into a bad mother and unfit grandmother. ?‍♀️ It beggars belief really.

He watched me nurse my husband for 9 years, that surely must say something about my character. I can't help but wonder if his wife would do the same for him if he suffered the same misfortune.

As far my husbands medical team were aware, my husbands illness was idiopathic rather than genetic and therefore my sons should be at no greater risk than the rest of the population. However, as his consultant warned, there can never be a cast iron guarantee in these cases.

I cannot tell a lie, the possibility that one of my sons might succumb to my husbands illness is always at the back of my mind, especially when I look at my sons wife and wonder hiw they would cope. Anyway I mustn't dwell on it. When those thoughts pop into my head, I shut them down. Worrying won't influence the outcome one way or the other, but worrying might compromise my ability to deal with such a scenario so I try very hard not to think about it,

Very tired today, plus my right bicep hurts too, and my fingers are a bit sore and stiff from stripping all 6 chairs yesterday, so I'm just taking it easy today. The chairs are now ready to be redone, so I'll probably just do two a day, starting tomorrow.

Just had a late lunch/early dinner so time for a coffee and settle down with a nice film.

I didn't see it coming either. I thought l got on quite well with DIL. Pleasant visits from them, nothing unpleasant ever said by her and l believed l was always understood and liked.
My estrangement was all done by texts and emails, things I'd said (which had been quite pleasantly received at the time, why didn't she say something then?) were misconstrued and altered.
I tried to get them to phone or visit and l think my son would have come and tried to sort it out and mend bridges, but she wouldn't.
Doing it by texts and email was not the way to do it as they can be easily be wrongly interpreted and the tone of voice is needed. But that is how it suddenly happened to me!

Derbyshire, my son said he had a lovely childhood too. But apparently I've changed lately!!!

My son used to say how good his childhood was to. Unfortunately his dad died when he was 16 and our daughter 20. Both the children always told me they where proud of me as they didn't think I would cope on my own after my husband died. But I did and looked after both my parents and mother in law. Both the children know I could have died in 2017.
My son knows what a bad mother, mother in law and grandmother is. He and my daughter in law knew my mother in law. He saw from childhood how she treated us. But I am a better person because as awful as she was I never gave up on her and she out lived my husband by 11 years.

They have treated me worse than she did. In his email he said I don't like you but love you mom. If this is love would hate to know what his hate is like. When he sent all the gifts and cards back unopened. He didn't say that this time. Just more lies ending with I don't want your vindictive and manipulative behaviour anywhere near me or my family zero contact.

He hasn't just cut me out of his life but all over side of the family. Since my mother in law's funeral haven't had anything to do with my husband's side . They just didn't bother with me.
Which suited me as I didn't like them.

I have never been vindictive and manipulative towards anyone in my life. Don't where he got that from.

But I am lucky I have a wonderful daughter, son in law and 2 grandson's who love me and who I love and see every week. Plus other family and friends.

Not forgetting all of you. Who get me through everyday. ❤️

I like blueberry and blackcurrant tea whiff - the twinings one. Though not on my carpets. Glad you got it out.

You know thinking about what you are saying about expectations madgran and smiles and DSL - it seems to me we were the generation that was supposed to do right by our elders and often couldn't do right for doing wrong - certainly my parents were big on criticism and small on praise. And we're supposed to do right by our kids and still can't do right for doing wrong. Who's supposed to do right by us? Well ourselves and each other hopefully, but feels like we got stitched up somewhere along the line there.

It amazes me how they can change their tune and make their narrative fit their latest world view DSL, whiff and hilltops. isn't it.

I also got the line about him loving me but not liking me whiff but I wouldn't treat my enemies the way he treated me. I'd at least be civil and truthful with them.

hugshelp it was twinings . Totally agree with your post. I hated my in laws only people I have every hated. But my husband loved them and would never give up on them. So I never did. Our children after he died never gave up on their nan. Even though she denied they existed. Or she ever had a son it wasn't grief just wickedness. My husband's sister died when he was 5 she was 12 . She was born with a genetic bowel condition. His mom talked about her . But a son she had for 47 years didn't exist. She hadn't even have the excuse of having any form of dementia.

You would have thought a grandmother would have been proud to attend both her grandchildren's weddings but no. As soon as they said they where getting married she said she wouldn't go. But she jumped at the chance of going to her nephew's. Wild horses wouldn't have stopped my mom from going. She danced until 1.30am at my daughter and son in laws wedding. And while we waited for a taxi to go too the hotel she was singing with some drunken guests from another party . Mom was sobber but very happy and proud. The guests where from another party. She danced until 10.30 at my son and daughter in law's it was 4 years later. She was so happy and proud to be there. She loved every minute spent with the family.

She was living with me when my eldest grandson was born and when they brought him to see her she was like a child at Christmas so excited. I hope they haven't taken the photos of her holding him off their wall. When the dementia took away my mom the only person she remembered was her great grandson. The last week of her life all she wanted was to see him. Kept telling me to fetch him. But my mom had died long before then it was just her body. She looked like my mom but she wasn't. My mom was lovely . What dementia did to her was awful the language she turned out I didn't know she knew the words and the violence was hard to bear. But I loved her and would never put her in a home. Both couples saw her before her 90th birthday but she was fine with them but didn't know them . I don't know if they realised it because we haven't talked about it. I have never wanted them to think badly of their nan I only want them to have happy memories of her and my dad. My dad didn't want to see my children the months leading up to his death I was hurt and asked him why when he saw my brother's . He pointed at himself and said this isn't me they are the eldest and I don't want them to see this. I want them to remember me as I was . He hated his body and how weak he had become.

As I have said before I was brought with a strong sense of family. For all dad was mistreated but his dad and step mom he never gave up on them. Once he met my mom he found out what real family was. His siblings always had birthday and Christmas presents because of him and mom . My husband got all the love and attention denied him by his own parents from mine and my family. Our children knew their great nan and other family members on my mom's side.

After my husband died it was our daughter and son that kept me going. Plus the promises I made to him.

Both couples have worked hard since they where 16 to get what they have. Both have lovely homes and are good parents all 5 of my grandson's are given everything a child needs love ,attention ,understanding but they know when they have done something wrong.

So why did my moving mean I am suddenly disposal to my son and daughter in law. For 7 months I saw my son and 2 grandson's every week. Covid hit. Still had calls ,texts , videos and photos. My son came on my birthday and I had a wonderful time. He talked about doing work on my garden to make it safer for me . I didn't ask he told me. Then 4 days later the text telling me he had sent an email to both me and his sister and not to contact him. That was it . I couldn't believe what I was reading or get over how cruel and cowardly he was . He said to give him time . I did 3 months later I sent the birthday cards,gifts and birthday gifts for my new grandson . Then when everything came back unopened with that letter. That was it zero contact. So that's what he has. The email was 4th May and the letter 14th August 2020.

I know I have said this before but if I don't write it down it would whorl around my mind so writing it gets it out of there and means I don't think about it .

So thank you for giving me somewhere to get it all out of my system. Now I can enjoy my time at the garden centre today.

Take care of yourselves. ?

Dl it must be at the back of your mind worrying that one of your sons might inherit their fathers illness. It scares me that I will die with my daughter and I estranged or that something happens to her which is the worst scenario, why I never came back at her for the things she has said and done. I’m trying never to get in touch again, it never ended well as her minds set, it’s what she wanted not me, but you have to accept it and I don’t know how you ever recover from a broken heart. This is why I need to see how well you are all getting on with life.
Whiff it seems your dil is the one with the issues and your son goes along with her. They want to come first. However the outcome is the same and thankfully you have your d and family who love you as an important part of their lives. It’s very difficult if you have no one else, say they are your only child and you live alone.

Thank you for your messages of wisdom and support.

This was my reading for my Sunday class and for tonight's as it's Valentines day, but I thought it apt for us on here too:

Love knows not it's own depth, until the hour of separation

Happy Valentines Day Everyone

As today is the day we celebrate love I thought I would share this with you.

I have been watching some clips of Sex and the City. For those unfamiliar with the programmes, it was a series about the adventures of 4 women in New York.

I have been specifically watching some of Samantha's most famous lines. Samantha was always my favourite character, something of a free spirit. They are some who found her offensive, who considered her immoral and promiscuous but to my mind she was always the nicest character, warm, generous of spirit and not a mean bone her body.

Anyway, one particular line, which was in fact used by the character in two separate occasions was this....

"I love you, but I love me more".

No matter how much our children have hurt us we still love them. How could we not. It comes with the territory of being a parent. We love them, despite what they have become, no matter the unkind things they have said and done.

It's now been over 7 weeks since I had any meaningful contact with my son and DIL. They are punishing me because I couldn't babysit for them. Now is that love?? No of course it isn't, it's entitlement.

It's a hard thing to face isn't it, the realisation that you are not loved for what you are but only for what you bring to the table. Hard but not impossible. I have come to terms with it,

And, taking a leaf from Samantha's books I have decided that from now on, whilst I will always love my son, from now on I'm going to love myself more.

So I'm going to celebrate Valentine's Day by treating myself with love and appreciation.

Sending you all ?❤️

It makes no sense. So many loving messages from our ES over the years. He once told me he didn't know what he'd do without me; he knows now doesn't he.

That's lovely Yogin and so true.

Perhaps worse for our EAC if we're estranged when we die, than for us Allsorts. Even with the closest of relationships at the very end, there are always things we wished we'd said or done and part of grief is knowing that we'll never be able too.

A horrible day here today, cold and wet. One of those days when it's good to be indoors,

I to think about if I become seriously ill or die. But unless my son gets in touch with me before then I have decided no one is to tell him. There is no need for him to know. He knew at the time of sending the email I was waiting for a bubble echo on my heart as the echo found a problem. So to me that shows he doesn't care . He used to be caring and loving . I will never understand how he could just turn it off like a tap.

My neurologist is having genetic tests done on my blood to see if they can put a name to my condition. I have decided if they find out what it is and it can be past on then I will get my neurologist to send my son a letter saying what it is. But if it's just something I have got then again no need for him to know. But after 34 years not expecting them to put a name to it. But it would be nice if they could. My husband had an eye defect when our daughter was 2 he had a cornea graft . But the odds of either the children getting it is 1 in a million.

I will never understand why a child can turn against loving parents. For all my dad and husband suffered at the hands of theirs in different ways they didn't turn against them. Because of my love for my husband I didn't turn against his mom . I couldn't just walk away it's against my nature. She was still my children's nan and that meant something to me.

We live in a disposable world. Is sad fact parents have become disposable to.

My walking boots are by Hotter and are so comfortable. Well padded. Hoping to give them a longer try out on Friday morning. Some roads near me I want to explore . Had a lovely time at the garden centre. I restrained myself plant wise and only brought some path weedkiller . With all the rain weeds are growing between the bricks of my drive. Just need it to stop raining.

DerbyshireLass I wouldn't know where to start to reupholster chairs. Did you do a course or just researched what to do? Samantha was always my favourite character to. As she was the strongest and more independent.

Allsorts I know you are right about my daughter in law. But she showed me such caring and kindnesses over the years it's hard now to think it was all lies. She should have been on the stage.

I don't lie as it always tells on my face. My husband's and children's favourite game was let's see if mom can tell a lie. They thought it was hilarious. My husband could make you believe black was white.

I have what in MS is called brain fog. Just means you can be saying or doing something and suddenly your mind goes blank. Happened the other week in exercise class just forgot what we where doing. Also I can repeat myself when talking because I forget what I am saying. Happens more if I'm not well. Like my neurologist says my brain and body are out of sync .

Yogin so true and lovely.

Have a good day everyone.

Re upholstering chairs. I am entirely self taught, as with most things of that nature.. I just seem to be naturally "arty/crafty" and can pick things up quite easily. I would just get a book and learn from there. Nowadays we have the internet and you tube which is fantastic. A world of knowledge at our fingertips. We are so lucky. We can learn anything we want.

Our kids are so blessed and fortunate to have grown up with such a resource. As my mum used to say "they don't know they are born". They have as much computing power on their phones as would have taken a whole room at NASA when I was a young woman.

I sometimes wonder if our kids have had too much. Maybe they've had it too easy, I always wanted my kids to have a better life than me. My childhood and early adulthood werent that great and I wanted better for my children. My husband and I worked like demons to give our children a good start in life. Maybe we overdid it.

I sometimes wonder if we made it too easy for them......maybe a bit of struggle and hardship is good for humans. Maybe, as a species, we need to learn to overcome obstacles and hardship in order to learn resilience and fortitude,

I am beginning to wonder if one of the reasons our ACs are so quick to estrange is because they give up too easily.

Whiff you are so right, parents do seem to have become disposable. We all know that we have become a throw away society. Material goods are cheap and disposable, and it seems relationships are going the same way.

Trouble in paradise?? Just throw money at the problem or, better still, shrug your shoulders and walk away. Toss the object, person, partner, parent aside and start again with someone new, bright and shiny.

Anyway.....I must tell you about my "Freudian Slip" yesterday.

My sister texted me in great distress. I decided to ring her rather than text, I inadvertently rang my son by mistake. (He was obviously lurking in my subconscious). Quickly realising my mistake and knowing he would be at work I rang off so as not to disturb him.

I later got a phone call from him, friendly as you like. Looks like he was waiting for me to make the first move, obviously too embarrassed after his last abusive call to me. Perhaps me backing right off gave him time to reflect on his bad behaviour and he regrets it. Who knows. He certainly seemed relieved and happy to hear from me. We will see.

I kept the conversation light and focussed on him. I didn't suggest meeting up or issue an invitation. Just going to leave it there. I inadvertently broke the ice, the rest is up to him.

I hate playing mind games, I much prefer to be straight, honest and upfront but I can do it if I have to. I eventually learned how to handle my narc father and play him at his own game. Looks like those early lessons are going to come in handy. It's not really a good way to live but I can do it if it means maintaining some semblance of a relationship with my son.

I just want to keep the channels of communication open, and maybe can occasional meet up. Not exactly an ideal warm relationship but better than nothing.

I think the pandemic has brought it home to a lot of EP's that their AC simply don't care. A worldwide, dangerous virus potentially putting everyone at risk of serious illness or death, and yet still no contact.

We never expected it to make any difference, but it must have been an upsetting reality check for many.

Mr. S. still has a card our ES wrote when he first had tests for prostate cancer. We were so frightened and it's hard to believe that the person who wrote those beautiful and heart felt words to his dad, could change beyond recognition.

My childhood was problematic, Mr. S. always says how lucky he was to have had the childhood he had so between us, I was determined our boys' would be better and he was determined they'd experience what he had.

Despite us all doing our best, our children didn't have perfect childhoods because life isn't perfect is it. Paradise doesn't exist. It didn't when we were children, didn't when our AC were children and wont for our GC.

For our AC, we can only hope our GC are more forgiving, that every aspect of their childhoods isn't put under the microscope, examined in detail and found wanting and if it is, the love they have for their parents our AC, is enough for them to love them in spite of their failings.

After all, that's what true love is isn't it, it's unconditional which is why we do and always will love them.

Did he mention that you'd phoned him DSL and if so, did you say you'd meant to 'phone your sister but called him by mistake?

Yes I did tell him I had rang his number by mistake, right at the start of the conversation. I probably gabbled a bit, ? because I was a bit nervous and I did not want him to think I was hounding him or pushing him so,I made it quite clear that it was unintentional. Whether he believed me or not who can say.

But even I have to admit although my phoning him was done unintentionally obviously he must have been on my mind. As Freud would say, I acted subconsciously, somethjng in my subconscious mind made me take that action, so not such a random act after all. ?.

I agree that the pandemic has had many repercussions that we couldn't possibly have dreamt off when it began. Unlike some people who believed it would all be over in 3 months, I always had a sense that it drag in for at least a couple of years. That's the truth nature of pandemics. We fight them as best we can with the medical tools we have but realistically they have to burn themselves out.

I live not far from the "Plague Village" in Derbyshire so like most people of my age we learned all about it at school. I have visited the village many times. What has always struck me is how stoical they were, how well they coped, how they all pulled together and the enormous sacrifice they made to stop the spread of disease. Sadly that would not be possible today because we really do live in a global village.

I sometimes think that, at least in the West, we have lost some of that stoicism. When I think back to my early years, and the lives of my parents and grandparents it is astonishing to see the rise in living standards and the material comfort we have enjoyed over the last few decades.

Have we, as a rich nation and to a certain extent as a species, become less stoical. Is being a stoic necessarily a good thing or is it just a form of unnecessary martyrdom, such interesting questions,

I am not blaming our ACs for always taking the easy route, its human nature after all. Our brains are programmed to protect us from harm and they will always look for the easiest, least painful option. It's hard sometimes to ignore our brains and the ceaseless inner chatter that tells us to take the easy route but sometimes we have to do exactly that. It's not good for us to remain safe, we have to step out of our comfort zone or we don't grow. We stagnate and regress.

We have to exercise our bodies for physical fitness and we have to exercise our brains for mental fitness. We have to challenge our thinking and not always take the easy route. I think this is what our ACs do. Far too often they take the easy option, they don't think long term, instead they go for the quick fix.

Relationship issues?? - our EACs seem to react by saying "its too hard, I can't take it, I cba, Whatever" so they just end it and walk away. Yes a nice short term simple solution but I'm convinced, that in long term, it will have devastating effects on their ability to build resilience and long term mental health.

You can't go through life avoiding obstacles, no one goes Scot free, we all have to face the odd curved ball. If our kids give up at the slightest hurdle how on earth will they face the big ones.......losing their jobs, illness, death of a loved one.

Mental fitness is vital to our well being and I think the pandemic has shown that an awful lot of people aren't perhaps as mentally or emotionally strong as they should be.

Sadly I think the pandemic has highlighted some shortcomings in the system, that a lot more needs to be done in the area of mental health. Our kids just aren't strong enough. Too many of them eat crap, don't exercise and don't look after their emotional and mental health. Consequently they can't handle stress of modern life, they cave in and try to run away from their problems rather than confront the issues they face.

Abandoning their parents is so counter productive, because we are their best allies. We can offer support and encouragement, we can be extra pair of hands, we can help out in so many practical ways so why freeze us out. Doesn't make sense, It's their loss, they are the ones cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

I have learned that I can live quite happily without my son and DIL and whilst I would love to have a close bond with my GC it wont kill me if that doesn't happen.

Our EAC's loss is far greater than ours. They just haven't the sense to see it.

DerbyshireLass a very well written post. And rings so true to how I feel.
I was brought up to believe you have to work and make sacrifices to get what you want out of life. Nothing is handed to you on a platter. That's how we brought the children up. And glad to say they have worked to get what they have. Neither couple have been frightened of hard work and unless they can afford it they don't have it.

I have never not done things because it's hard . The stubborn streak in me won't let me. I take it as a challenge to conquer what ever it is.

But my son wanting zero contact and the things he accused me of and said about me plus what my daughter in law wrote about me. There was no point in fighting against it. As it would just given them the chance to hurt me all the more and I won't let them do that.

I am his mom not a punching bag. So for my own piece of mind he has want he wanted. Whether it's made his life easier no idea . Has it made him happy I doubt it. His choice and that's something he has to live with.

Yes I miss him and my grandson's all the time will I contact him no hell will freeze over before I would do that.

I have never turned my back on anyone I loved and cared for. I never turned my back on my mother in law and I hated her.

If my son wants me in his life he knows where I live. It's his move . But not holding my breath .

Whiff.....you are formidable. You have overcome so many setbacks, facing your trials with courage and a brave heart.

Your son is either a fool or he's oblivious to what's happened to him. . Your daughter in law is either a total nincompoop or else a raging manipulative narcissist out to get you, using your son as her tool and the grandchildren as weapons. Much the same as my DIL and, by the sound of it, like many of the AC's partners on here.

I thought that having a narc father, learning how to spot a narcissist and learning how to deal with them would protect me from further entanglements with narcissistic people and, to a certain extent, it did. For most of my adult life I have managed to steer well clear. That is, Until my son got ensnared and Madam entered my life,

Thankfully I'm not her primary target, I am only a secondary but that too presents its own difficulties. If you are a primary you can make the decision to go full no contact and walk away.

As a secondary it would of course be even easier to go full no contact, because I wouldn't have to fight for my freedom in the same way that a primary target would have to go through hell to escape the narcs clutches.

However, I have given it a lot of thought and I really don't want to go full no contact, unless it's forced upon me. I don't want to abandon my son if I can help it, He is going to need me one day and I want him to feel that he can ask for help when the time comes.

So, for the time being, I will just rub along, operating what I call my red velvet rope policy and just generally acting as my own gatekeeper to my innermost feelings, much like a computer firewall.

My son asked few questions, as usual the conversation revolved around him. That's fine by me. I am happy not to have to evade questions and am happy to keep my doings, thoughts and feelings to myself.

He has no idea that I am planning to put my house on the market or about my future plans, post move. My youngest son and his partner are in on the secret and they are excited and happy for me.

My eldest sons wife would be scornful and would no doubt try to bring me down or sabotage me. Narcs cannot stand other peoples success and happiness, it threatens them. She is somewhat jealous of me and wildly jealous of my youngest son and his partner. So unnecessary because she is intelligent, capable and has been blessed with great beauty but something is very wrong with her psyche.

All I can say, is none of us know what's round the corner.
I never expected my husband to contract a terminal illness at the age of 49. He was Mr Fitness, at the peak of his career and looking forward to early retirement. And I never thought I would have what it takes to become a carer to a quadriplegic. But I dug deep and got through it.

After that, there is nothing that my DIL could throw at me that would be worse than what I went through. She holds no terrors for me, my fears are for what she could do to my son and grandchildren.

Maybe one day, our ACs will see the light. The scales will fall from their eyes and they will realise the enormity of their mistakes, hopefully whilst they are young enough to rebuild.

Unfortunately realisation can take a very long time My friend was married to a narc for 40 plus years before she wised up. Even her FIL (his dad) kept telling her to get out and save herself. She did eventually. My poor mother never did manage to escape.

Two more chairs done, just two to go. Despite using an electric staple gun, it's rough on my shoulders and neck so I'm just having a little break. Should get the other two done this afternoon so that will be a good job done. Then a quick tidy up, followed by an easy supper and a rest. I can do a proper clean up of all the lint etc tomorrow.

He's bound to be on your mind DSL as things stand, with you not knowing what's going on. Sounds as if the conversation went well and it's a positive that he rang you back.

I think there's something in what you say about our EAC taking the easy option. Why bother trying to work things out, why 'go the extra mile' when you can just walk away? Especially if they're being influenced by their partner. Much easier to push us out then have to stand up to them and potentially cause problems and friction at home.

You are clever, reupholstering those chairs I bet they look fabulous.

He's going to be in for a bit of a shock when he finds out about your plans and no doubt there'll be criticism for not telling him before, so be ready for that. Of course it wont make any sense, you go for weeks on end, not knowing what's going on with his and your GC's lives, but he'll expect to be kept in the loop when it comes to yours.

I do think that stubbornness can be a good thing Whiff. For many of us it's that stubborn refusal to believe that our lives are over, and that we can't find peace and happiness because we've been estranged that enables us to move on and make a life without them.

That's so true whiff - we were taught to work hard and make sacrifices to earn what we needed, and if we failed to try again. I notice some younger people seem to think we owe them everything and if they don't get it then it's us who have failed them.

Yes DSL "I love you, but I love me more". We all need to remember to love ourselves first, so that we can love others. I do wonder if our EC blame us for the lack of self-love they have in a world that is driven so strongly by how popular or successful people are seen to be, and it never seems to be enough. I think there's too much emphasis on competition these days rather than co-operation. It's all, I'm all about me me me, not us. All about I'm alright Jack. I think caring about our families and neighbours wasn't just good for them but good for us too. Living as though you always have to be number one must be so lonely.

Reupholstering chairs is a real skill DSL, I'm uber impressed.