Pregnant and abusive daughter

If you are still around OP, these are my thoughts. I don't know if anyone else will find them relevant.

I'm getting the impression that there are underlying stresses between you and your daughter that she doesn't feel able to deal with right now. I do believe that talking things through openly is almost always the best policy but you can't make her do so till she's ready.

You say she went to your SILs family for a party. That does seem unusual when she's just received such bad news. Are you sure it was for a party? Did you feel she was pushed into going? Is this why you felt the need to ring or was it to ease your own anxiety? And I'm not blaming you for that, you are only human; we worry about our loved ones. But when you mention 4 days with no replies, I wonder how often you texted or rang? You also mention your husband talking to your FiL and it seems between them they made things worse. I'm guessing lots of people are thinking they know what's best and I get the impression that there's some tension between the two families. Is that right?

The thing that purportedly happened 22 years ago. Is this the first you have heard of it? Is it possible that it is due to different perspectives or do you feel it is factually false?

I have experienced first-hand untrue accusations made that the person making is convinced are true even when other people were present at the time in question and swear blind those accusations are false.

Either way, both our memories and our perceptions are subjective.

Scientists and the law courts are well aware that we all rewrite memories to fit our views, and as our views change over the years our memories can change dramatically. It has been shown that given new information we will rewrite memories to incorporate it. I had a friend who had this happen during a court case regarding a traffic accident. The other party swore blind certain things happened and it appeared he really believed those things. Fortunately for our friend, CCTV proved otherwise.
This is something that few of us take into account when we are at odds with others.

None of us can know what did or didn't happen 22 years ago, and it may well be that without corroborative evidence, neither of you can be as sure as you both believe. Perhaps if you could both take on board that memories and perceptions are subjective and find a way to agree to differ you might be able to bridge the gap.

The fact that they were happy to take your help for some time may reflect that her perceptions have recently changed.
Some might think your daughter had repressed certain memories. Others might suggest she has unknowingly moulded them to fit her current state of mind. We cannot know.

Things are usually a lot less black and white than people paint them. If we accept our own imperfections and those of others we have more of a chance of hearing one another.

If you need to talk over the events of 22 years ago I would say that you remember things differently, but are aware that memories are fallable. Saying that you are sorry if you caused any pain can be an honest way of delivering an apology - since we all will have at some point - usually unintentionally. But you don't have to agree to having done something you don't think you have.

As your daughter seems to be running from discussion some of the time, I would try and let her come to you and take good care of yourself and focus on things that make you happy while you wait.

It's not a discussion

Re. your post @ 17.49 Madgran I didn't think I was alone in my interpretation of what I feel the OP has been clear about, but it's good to have it confirmed by someone else.

I completely agree with you that "paraphrasing into one's own particular view point is less than helpful" to the OP or to the discussion.

I've asked that question too MissA 'what does "everything" mean and yes, it would be a good idea for the OP's D to tell her mum exactly what the issues are. Like you, I haven't seen anything to suggest that the D had communicated at all with her mum.

As has been said several times during this discussion, a simple response would have prevented any miss understanding and would have put her mum's mind at rest.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you don't, you don't care and if you do, you're interfering.

MissAdventure

Sorry, yes I was meaning you, violet.
I didn't read it that the daughter had communicated at all with her mum.
You know what, though, my arms and fingers really ache, and I can't summon the energy any more.

Hope you have a nice Sunday evening rest MissA

Oldladynewlife glad to read that was a mistake, I was thinking "what have I done now?" lol

I’m quite confident that my paraphrases are quite accurate even if it makes you uncomfortable to have the implications of some statements drawn out or made explicit.

Hmmmm! Not in the least uncomfortable but as I said I will withdraw to stop any further derailing

Sorry that quoted the wrong commenter. I’m still learning the formatting.

VioletSky

MissAdventure

So you think it might be an idea for her to tell her mum, then?

I don't know if you mean me but, you know I had to explain or at least try... I don't think that's appropriate in all cases...

But it does look like OPs daughter did try to tell her something and it didn't go well

I joined gransnet because I’m fascinated by English passive aggressive speech and psychological and social analysis, which here is always brought to a high art! I have been reading and watching the way this group supports some viewpoints and attacks others for quite a while. We will have to disagree about what is a fair reading of the implication of other’s comments. I’m quite confident that my paraphrases are quite accurate even if it makes you uncomfortable to have the implications of some statements drawn out or made explicit.

Sorry, yes I was meaning you, violet.
I didn't read it that the daughter had communicated at all with her mum.
You know what, though, my arms and fingers really ache, and I can't summon the energy any more.

...and to avoid derailing I will move on from this particular aspect of the discussion

Violet I agree reset can be a useful word in relationships, on a number of levels

MissAdventure

So you think it might be an idea for her to tell her mum, then?

But she did tell her mom—OP told us that her daughter told her what was wrong. OP doesn’t agree with what her daughter told her but the daughter has told her what she thinks happened, what matters to her, and how she thinks the relationship can be mended. OP told us that herself. She doesn’t agree/won’t or can’t comply with the daughter’s request and in your opinion, perhaps, it’s too global (“everything” being too big or too vague for you) but the daughter has told her mother the problem as she sees it.

MissAdventure

So you think it might be an idea for her to tell her mum, then?

I don't know if you mean me but, you know I had to explain or at least try... I don't think that's appropriate in all cases...

But it does look like OPs daughter did try to tell her something and it didn't go well

whatever activities or monies that have changed hands previously are not some kind of lawful down payment or moral mortgage that permits the OP or anyone else to demand reciprocity or permanent contact

Again, that is not being suggested by anyone. People are saying that as those things were accepted despite other difficulties, then they are inevitably going to be factored into the OPs thinking, ....and different people, including yourself are presenting different perspectives on that.

I'm not going to bother detailing to my professional experience to validate my comments or otherwise. What I will say is that if referring to others expressed views then paraphrasing into one's own particular viewpoint is less than helpful.

It would be ridiculous to lay all of the blame on either party, as outsiders.

MissAdventure

It depends if they have actually done anything, as far as I'm concerned.
What does "everything" even mean?

That’s a fair point. I don’t think we have an accurate enough read on what was actually said to know what was meant or understood by the word “everything”—but presumably OP does since she knows what the daughter meant by 22 years ago even if she denies, to us, that it has a real world referent.

Look: where we all stand on this depends absolutely on where we sit—as mothers, daughters, in laws, grandparents. I’ve known plenty of borderline/erratic/delusional people—not all of them clients!—whose word is not to be taken as literal fact. But OP does not assert that her daughter is one of them. I’ve also known a lot of people who can’t admit fault at all and who “forget” or never register some pretty horrific behavior on their own part or on the part of others .

It’s practically a cliche of dysfunctional families for parents to deny knowing what their partners or relatives did to the young children in their control. So OP may legitimately “not know” of an incident between her daughter and her husband, sibling, partner that the daughter remembers as quite serious.

That isn’t the same as s the statement the incident never happened. And I’m leery of assigning all the blame for the 22 years ago discussion to the daughter.

So you think it might be an idea for her to tell her mum, then?

MissA it probably doesn't make sense to us reading that sentence, it might not make sense to OP either...

To daughter it might be loaded when she said it... It might mean she has explained what everything is previously so that's a quick way to encompass it. Or it might mean OPs daughter just thinks her mum should or does know what everything is...

I don't think it means everything in a be very literal sense, just the things she is hurt about

It depends if they have actually done anything, as far as I'm concerned.
What does "everything" even mean?

All my autocorrects are ridiculous lately

I actually like that term "reset"

I think that some see apologising for things as some sort of admission of guilt that will mean forever being the guilty one, that admitting to faults means being faulty forever... That that makes them less to the other person forever.

I do see apologising as a reset, I don't think people are guilty forever, the only way they continue to be guilty forever is to carry on those same behaviours.

People who apologise and are accountable aren't less, they are strong. It takes more to be the bugger person because that's growth.

No one, not Smileless or anyone else, can state a priori that whatever happened 22 years ago was not important to the OP’s daughter or that the vaunted money or support wasn’t well understood in the family to be just an attempted pay off for the harm. Just because OP shied away from accountability by discreetly avoiding naming the issue

I don't think anyone HAS suggested that!

Also the OP is asking for help—she asked the FIL and she asked the board. It’s not helpful to support her in the fantasy that she is the victim here of cruel/selfish people

I don't think anyone is supporting any "fantasy" either! People ARE pointing out POSSIBLE other perspectives, her daughter's, the FILs, to the information that the OP has given. Exactly as you are doing!

While smileless argues that the OP’s daughter should have realized that a mother’s love trumps a child’s privacy perhaps the daughter, as violetsky proposed, learned from motherhood that her own mothering had been problematic and is now wanting a reset?

Noone is saying that anyone's love trumps privacy! That is just your interpretation of a viewpoint that if things had been dealt with in a different way, the problem would not have arisen re FIL contact anyway!

Like you I agree with Violetsky that the daughter may be wanting a reset, but again that is just another viewpoint/suggested perspective for consideration if the OP wishes to consider it!! We don't know, including you, we can only suggest and let the OP, if she is still reading take what she finds helpful, or not!

Really? You must have led a very sheltered life. I have a practice that handles dissociative disorders, child abuse, depression/anxiety, OCD etc…

No, I didn’t misread the OP, she did say she had done quite a bit of babysitting previously, for the older child, but also that the relationship had become strained two years before this current time. Adults are permitted to change their mind about relationships with parents, or anyone, and whatever activities or monies that have changed hands previously are not some kind of lawful down payment or moral mortgage that permits the OP or anyone else to demand reciprocity or permanent contact.

In addition the OP’s assertion that her daughter’s mental health might be adversely affected by staying with her in laws sorts oddly with calling the FIL as an ally.

Again, I don’t see that the OP is helped by the commenters here all supporting her in her fantasy that she was right to contact FIL, to ask for secrecy, and then to be shocked that her daughter/son in law are not happy with her. She should know them well by now and have been able to anticipate their reaction to her intrusion. In fact she DID expect that her call would be poorly received. So what is the point of encouraging her to persist in reoffending (which is what these continued “attagirl!” Like comments are. They support OP in feeling hard done by when it’s nothing of the sort.

I see we have crossed posts Oldladynewlife. Neither I or anyone else has suggested that what might have happened 22 years ago is not important to the OP's D.

I think don't think it is at all helpful to the OP to suggest that financial and practical support given and received was done so as an attempt "to pay off for the harm". TBH I find that rather shocking.

I have never argued that "that the OP's daughter should have realised that a mother's love trumps a child's privacy" and find that accusation outlandish.

We clearly have very different views and interpretations on not just what is contained in the OP, but what has been posted on this thread.

So not to cause any disruption by continuing to disagree, I wont respond to any more of your posts.

Strange kind of therapist is all I can say...

I think you may have mis read some of the OP. Oldladynewlife.

The OP had been providing care for her GC for 3 years so long before the unfortunate worries over her unborn child. I think it is unfair to suggest that she felt the issues raised about events 22 years ago aren't important, knows they're important but refuses to see them as such or knew they happened but wont apologise for them. She clearly states "which I had not done".

I don't agree that she was "fantasising" that there may have been something wrong. Again in the OP she says that she knows "how she feels about some of the family, and was very worried about her mental state". This must have been due to information supplied by her D at some point.

I think it's a shame to suggest that posters who are supporting the OP because they feel it's her D's and f.i.l.'s behaviour that is wrong are coddling her.

Clearly we are not all in agreement here but that doesn't make an opposing point of view which results in different advice, any less valid. It certainly doesn't equate with "slagging off" the D and/or the f.i.l.