Looking for the right answer to criticisms.

Eugenia, you talk about forgiveness of your former SIL. You have nothing to forgive, that would be down to your daughter and despite what you are saying there seem no signs that any reconciliation will happen.

Your angry daughter, as you describe her, who is still your child, is what you have now. I honestly suggest that you let her come to you and as and when she does, you ask her what she needs and provide it without the huge degree of emotional enmeshment you have shown so far (from your own words) This is the best way forward to preserve a relationship with her and her (her) family.

This is the best I can say. Frankly, I have little time for parents who seem to dismiss the children they bought into the world because the nice, unthreatening little grandchildren are so much easier than navigating the relationships with adults

I don't think any of those what ifs really matter Eugenia, what matters now is rebuilding the relationship with your daughter. All the time you are focused on all this other stuff... Its not going to get better

There are some misconceptions that I was always around my daughter and her family most of the time.

I watched my grandson 1 day a week; they asked me to, so they could save money on daycare. The other two days of daycare, she had him in there for socialization; the rest of the week they had off work.

So I was alone at my house with grandson once a week; then usually on a weekend day, we would all (husband, son would come along) go out to eat or do something...or simply visit over their place or ours for a movie.

I didn't mean to leave the impression I was at their house many times a week. I was not.

As much as I adored to do things with them and my grandson, I actually spaced out the time I spent with them on purpose because yes, I was young once with kids and I know how important private family time is!

I did turn down invites at times and said it was because they needed family time! I would always say I would join them the next time they went....zoo, park, etc.

Now I worry, maybe I didn't do enough. I remember never bothering my son in law to be with his son on his 2 days off when my daughter was at work.

Towards the end he actually messaged me one day when he was off and wanted to see if I wanted to go do something. I was surprised but accepted and it was a fun afternoon of shopping and lunch with he and my grandson at Downtown Disney. We live in close by Disneyland.

Does that sound like a son in law who's had too much of a mother in law hanging around?

Right before the breakup, he even mentioned after our outing he would like to come around with my grandson on his days off and hang out more with me and my son. Maybe go back to Downtown Disney.

I told him anytime, just let me know. And I did wait for him to let me know, I don't push. But just a few weeks later, he mentioned that he went back with his son again.

Thought it was odd because of what he had said before. We found out later he had went with the girl he'd just met.

When my daughter and son in law broke up, I did regularly go to her house but usually only once a week to visit and she would always ask if I could just play with the kids so she could have extra time to grade.

She would also come over, again maybe once a week, to enjoy me feeding her and taking care of the kids so she could either grade or go to the gym with her brother.

Also, wanted to clear up that I don't expect an actual apology to myself if my SIL were to one day decide he wanted his family back. I meant the "forgiveness" on my part as I would forgive....aka not hold a grudge over what he had done. Everyone makes mistakes.

I am sure if my daughter took him back (and she would, I guarantee it) that she also would not want me to hold a grudge aka unforgiveness towards him. I would think if he's good enough for her, I should have no issue with him.

I mean, how would that be supportive of her, if she forgave/took him back and I was the one hating on him?

But yeah, right now he can go straight to......

I meant to say, also ...why not try to rebuild your own marriage? When your chicks have flown the nest, that's the time to rediscover what made you fall in love in the first place. You rarely mention your DH - a shadowy figure in the background. What sort of a life has he had? What does he want out of the marriage and family? The fact that you are still married is a positive. HRT is amazing in that it does wonders for your libido! You should be enjoying each other at this stage of life, getting out and about, travelling, going out, or staying in, for romantic dinners. Good luck! x

Eugenia - what I see over and over again is a culture of blame. Your daughter, your SIL, your husband, the young woman involved, your DD's friend. Blame, condemnation, and repentance. A very toxic mix. Do you ever blame yourself...for as we know "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". You do say, by way of self-blame, that you married young and put everything into your children and GC. But that is said in a manner that suggests that you see that as an entirely positive thing. If you really, really analyse your role in all this, can you see anything that you did or said that was hurtful, even if unconsciously? Were you around your family too much? Did you offer unsolicited advice, however helpful you believed it to be? Is there any possibility that your presence was too much for your SIL to handle? Your DD is, I assume, a teacher, and as such, needs quiet time in abundance to mark and prepare school work. An extra person in the home, specially one whose only joy in life is found with her family, can be very taxing. If their marriage was idyllic, then something caused tensions. Why should your SIL apologise to YOU before YOU can forgive him? It's nothing to do with you - they need to sort it themselves.
I find it interesting that your son is the golden child, frequently offering wisdom which impresses you. You say nothing about him apart from that. His marriage foundered because of personality differences. Fair enough. I wonder what his ex-wife would say, though? If you don't see her or her family, after being so close, there must have been animosity. It's not like the marriage failed because of adultery or domestic violence. Has your DS moved away from you? If so, does he visit regularly? Has he talked with his sister about the situation? They must have been, and hopefully, still are close after their idyllic childhood. What does he say about his father's behaviour, since that seems to be your DD's major gripe...that you married the wrong man? Will he marry again, do you think, and will you be as enmeshed with his children as with your DD’s?
Rather than telling us so much peripheral material, about what surveys say men like about young women, the symptoms of your menopause and the behaviour of your DD’s friend’s mother, why don’t you really give the whole situation some deep thought? Everything is unravelling, it seems, and one of the major factors is you. You can’t be very old, if you have only just undergone the menopause. You have so much life left. So much time to really live and discover yourself. Happiness is not found in other people’s lives. You make it yourself. Why not start by joining a craft group, or a choir, or playing a sport? Meet a friend for coffee and a brisk walk? Getting out into the world, fresh air and exercise is so therapeutic. See your doctor if you believe that you are depressed. Have you tried HRT? It is amazing stuff!
All the best, Eugenia. Remember that no-one on here is blaming or criticising. We are offering support and a listening ear, and some thoughts from our own life experiences. Keep well x.

So I do place a lot of blame on the girl who could have just not gotten in the middle of a marriage that was in a struggle period.

Then your blame is misplaced. Assuming that your son in law wasn't kidnapped, bound, gagged and dragged away kicking and screaming, he could have "just not gotten" involved with the girl, knowing that he had a wife and children at home, his marriage was already in difficulty and that starting an affair with her would be the death knell to it. Wake up Eugenia please; for your own sanity and future.

Eugenia you are trying to live in a cloud cuckoo land where everything is mother love and apple pie. You were lucky that your childhood and marriage was so idyllic, although like most idylls, it meant ignoring uncomfortable facts and often causing lifelong injury and oppression to some family members.

Now you are in the real world that has always been there, whether you like it or not and has always included those with religious beliefs and those without. Although how you reconcile your religious beliefs with not forgiving people unless they say sorry first and presumably remedy the matter.

As I understand that, you means you want your SiL to leave his new partner, come back to his wife and resume life as if the separation had never occurred. Then you will forgive him? Have you considered what your daughter's reaction would be to something like this?

Your daughter's marriage has broken down. It actually doesn't matter what the reason is. You just need to deal with the fact that the rift has occurred and she is trying to build a new future for herself and the children.

Your constant need to go back to a past that I doubt actually existed and make the present conform to the past, is doing huge damage to you, your daughter and most of all your grandchildren. When the time comes, how are you going to be able to gt them to forgive you.

You have got to accept what your daughter says and wants and either support her wholeheartedly or move away.

The same with your grandchildren. You must stop depending emotionally on a 4 year old, and ruining his whole life for him by this abnormal relationship.

You need councilling to sort this emotional mess out and then open your life to other interests, other people. This will enable your DD and her children to do the same.

Very good messages here. Maybe it was my upbringing and young life that effects all this. My parents were great, very family oriented. I married quite young, 19. Both our families were family oriented and my kids had 2 sets of grandparents who lived near by. We were together often.. Both my mom and my MIL would always say family is most important.

Everything wasn't perfect; my marriage, finances, etc. but we were a united happy family. Overall our days were filled with movies, playing, going out places. We had fun and enjoyed family life.

And it just got better with grandkid we thought we'd never have. We made plans for family trips since finally after years of struggle, finances got much better.

But it just changed drastically overnight. And while yes, my son in law is the main blame here, I've come to realize in life that when you dangle a cream filled carrot in someone's face, usually they grab it.

There was a study, I think, that near 70% of men, of all ages, if they could absolutely choose the age of their partners, they would choose women in their 20's. Interestingly, it was my son who just brought it up one day out of the blue.

So I do place a lot of blame on the girl who could have just not gotten in the middle of a marriage that was in a struggle period.

Only reason I bring up the girl is because so many of you think blame is solely on son in law. It is not. But that doesn't mean I don't resent him and think he's a piece of sh** because I do. Yet again, my thing is forgiveness and even for him, if he decided he goofed and wanted to come back.

It might be my beliefs....repentance=forgiveness. Unfortunately I also believe no repentance=no forgiveness, which isn't popular among my fellow Christians but the bible refers to repentance to be part of the equation....repentance and rejection/stopping of evil ways.

Sorry to bring religion into it. I know many do not believe and frankly lately, I get that. I have questions too. But again, I mention this because some here think I favor my son in law over my daughter....that's a big no way! Right now, if he literally died, I'd only feel sad for my grandkids. Right now, he is nothing but a big thorn in life ruining the roses in the garden.

BoadiceaJones, to answer your question, my son had a brief marriage to a wonderful girl. Family oriented and we just loved her; her parents and my husband and I really hit it off.

Luckily the marriage was so short, we begrudgingly but naturally, of course, didn't see them after. I say luckily because it was a bit easier, not being involved long term with good people like they were. My son and his wife just started with severe personality differences right away. No kids.

Out of interest, Eugenia, and in case I missed it, is your son married, with children?

Eugenia there are lot of people here giving you hard messages and constructive criticism in a respectful honest way. I think if you want to change your situation you really really need to listen, be honest with yourself and then look for ways forward that address the issues from everyone's perspective, not just your own. I hope that all the issues can be sorted out for your family.

If daughter thinks you are repeating past problems with your grandchildren then, the clues are there aren't they?

Son happy with his childhood, daughter not.

Grandson favoured over granddaughter.

Son in law favoured over daughters feelings.

You have to fix this

Eugenia, I noticed the comment that your grandson is your favourite. Even if you think you've not overtly favoured him, your daughter will have noticed. I'm not saying it is the cause of all the issues between you but it could well be a contributory factor.

It does read that you are very enmeshed emotionally with
your daughters life and that doesn't seem to be working for her anymore; some of what you describe comes over as irritation on her part. As PP have suggested, taking several big steps back and concentrating on building up a more independent life for yourself may actually create a more healthy dynamic with her.

Eugenia.
You seem to have very intense relationships. There comes a time when our children become adults and we need to step back and let them live their own lives.
Perhaps if you found interests/ occupations outside the family they would see you as an
individual person in your own right. Your daughter certainly seems to have little respect for you. And certainly does not seem to treat you as an equal.
You talk here of your anxiety that she will cut you off from your grandchildren; if you are showing that anxiety as clearly to her it gives her a stick to beat you with whenever she wants. That is not an adult respectful relationship.
Your desperation screams in everything you have written here.
With regard to your former son in law, he is the one who betrayed your daughter, is it irrelevant who with.. he is the one who made the vows, he is the one who broke them. To show respect for your daughter you should not be in touch with him without her permission.
I really feel you need to step away from the intensity, find other things to occupy your mind and your time. Have something different to talk about when you do see your daughter, something that is just yours. Some news to discuss that is about your life that none of the family are involved in.
And when your daughter says something rude or insulting to you - do not be afraid to put her in her place and remind her that your are her Mother and will not be spoken to in that manner.
Please remember ... if you lie down - someone will walk over you.

Absolutely, in agreement with BoadiceaJones and Allsorts. It is the absolute dependence of grandparents, especially grandmothers, on their grandchildren for their purpose in life that lies behind quite a number of estrangements.

Yet our generation of women have had far fuller lives than the generation before us. All but a few will have worked outside the home, many had enjoyable careers, travelled abroad and had other opportunities to widen thir horizons, why when we become grandparents, now so much later in life, do so many suddenly put blinkers on and reduce their lives to total dependence of grandchildren for our reason for living and only occupation.?

BodiceaJones I really wish I could think like you, I'd be better off. I just can't. It's been my kids all my life; now grandkids. I am way too attached, I know. I got married too young, kids stayed home long after high school. But I'm trying lately to focus on me and hopefully that helps me for those trying times with this situation. I appreciate all your and the others here advices and encouragements.

BodaceaJones, Your observations are right I feel, I do think a lot of adults have unrealistic expectations of their relationship with ac and need to know they are not theirs ac best friend or responsible for their parents happiness and need to look at themselves. I know I didn’t.,

But, Eugenia, don't you see that you can have joy from all sorts of places. It doesn't have to be your family, and they should not have the responsibility of being everything to you - the source of the only love and joy in your life. You need to unclip yourself from them, and look for other things to make you happy. My family are scattered 900-3000 km from me. I haven't been able actually to see them much in the last 2 years, but that very distance is what allows you some flexibility in the relationship. It would have been easy, after working for 47 years, to have gone to live in the same town as the nearest DC, but I needed time for me after all that work. So it's visits several times a year, going to playgrounds and the pool, teaching them knitting and crafts, sending little care packages, holiday spends, boxes of baking and home-grown fruit, going on holiday together - for a short time, because as we know, fish and guests go off after 3 days. I have found such pleasure in developing new skills - painting, gardening, family research, charity work, teaching small classes and making lots of new friends. Families need to know that their older parents are happy, without having to be the source of that happiness, a burden on top of the commitments of family life with young children. They have to create their own domestic bliss, from the sharing and discarding of their own past experiences, a new entity, without either parental family becoming too intrusive. You cannot mourn your SIL as losing a son - he's a rat who betrayed your daughter.
I'm so sorry to say this, but "maybe even have some joy before I die" sounds quite disturbing.

BoadiceaJones...well you are right on some counts and wrong on others but I get it, it's hard to really know without being part of or observing what happens in a situation.

I am impressed with what you said about her treating me like the child. It's so true. She gets that from her dad; he has always done that with me and his dad did that to his mom.

I figured because I got married so young and was a stay at home mom, didn't get out in the world, that might be it, but my MIL was a professor at a university yet her husband treated her like a second class citizen. So not sure that if I was a career person, I would have been treated any differently.

Now, I'm not at all competitive with my daughter with that statement. I was making a point: people cannot judge a situation, like the meno hell I went through, unless they also go through it.

I'm telling you, if I had not experienced it myself, I never would have believed it was even possible to have that sort of reaction to a normal biological change.

For quite awhile I actually thought it was something else wrong, had tons of tests.

I couldn't fathom it could be that bad; my mom had some issues but nothing like that. It is indescribable..... except imagine day and into the night being wired up but exhausted at the same time whilst sweating and freezing simultaneously with your heart racing all night and day, with maybe a few hours break now and then falling into a dream filled short sleep. So yeah, can't really watch after a toddler with all that going on.

Right after my meno, the breakup happened. So for me the last 3 years, starting with menopause and through this event has been non stop hell.

Right before it all, we were a happy, united family and thrilled beyond words. Every day I thanked God for the joy.

My daughter lost the love of her life. I lost a second son; my son lost a brother. My grandson lost a dedicated father who used put him first, not a teenage girl. I lost my daughter.....the one I have now is not the same.

So yes, I am guilty of feeling all I have left is my grandkids and my son.

My husband is not always there for me and because I had my kids young, I never endeavored into a job and making new friends. All my high school friends moved away.

My grandson is definitely my favorite; he has been after me since he was a baby. He sort of won me over rather than me win him over. I just hope I'm allowed to enjoy that while it lasts.

I am definitely not overbearing, I usually go with the flow and hide my hurts/disappointments in private. I never cry in front of anyone. I vent to others outside the situation; sometimes I get pointers on how to handle things. I've gotten a few here, so that I am thankful for.

So at least I can try to handle the hurt and maybe even have some joy before I die.

Didn't mean to sound judgmental, but literally I was quoting what my son in law had said about it, when it happened. Guess that was in my mind when I wrote.

She was very much into guys and it was sudden, so maybe that is what he meant by "deciding". She had just broken up with a guy she thought was the "one" but realized he was not going to commit. She was very broken up about it.

Overall, this girl was a bad influence and not a good person. I didn't realize this at first, as I tend to give people benefit of doubt even in the face of some things. But when truth is revealed, I'm not one to deny it either.

My son had made some critical observations of her from day one and he knew then what I have come to realize now. He was right.

One time years ago too, my son made an observation about my son in law too, that he thought was not the type to stick around in a marriage...a yes man to his wife without a conflict but definitely an opportunist in nature and had no real sense of family or loyalty.

I thought my son was insane to think that!!! How could he know or say that? At the time I thought my daughter and son in law had something very special. I didn't realize was one sided. So again, seems my son's judgements were simple truths and wise observations that completely escaped me. Wish I could read people like that.

She is a mean spirited judgmental witch (that is also literal; she claims to be a wiccan witch, casts spells, etc). Again, she has cut off her mom for no real reason except her own judgement. I know her mom; she was not the fully dedicated to kids type like me, but she certainly loved and tried to bring them up well.

I figure in high school, some of that anti mom stuff must have rubbed off on my daughter.....acceptance and fitting in with peers is very much a teenage thing.

Around that time, my daughter would try to pick a fight with me over nothing. I wondered why. But again, luckily at that time, my daughters life was good and we were close, so no mom hating attitude really stuck.

So my daughter and I remained close for a very long time. All the way up until her breakup.

You know, as upset as I am with her and all she has done to put me down and hurt me, if she would just say I'm sorry one day in the future, all is forgiven.

I have apologized to her for things in the past, unintended but nevertheless I apologize. I have love and can forgive. But some people don't want or care about that.

I'm not a therapist, psychologist, nor any kind of expert, Eugenia, just an old lady who has been through the mill of life. So I may be talking through a hole in my head. But these are my impressions:

You have a very ambivalent relationship with your daughter. You're the mother, yet she treats you like a child. You lack closeness and intimacy in your marriage, which you have been trying to gain from being your DD's best friend through school. You seem to be competitive with her in many ways, ("I'd like to see her reaction to sleeping...) and your relationship with the GC bears this out. You are needy, and you seem to regard yourself as a victim. You're trying to corner the 4 yr old's affection for yourself, putting an unfair burden on him. Your only joy is your GC. Really? Do you have a life outside the family? You give me the impression of being somewhat overbearing, and rather exhausting to be around. You focus on your own reactions a great deal. Did we really need to know about the 21-year old OW to understand YOUR situation? How did your daughter cope with the tensions in the home in her childhood? Did you really listen to her as a child, and keep communications open at all times? You've had a rough time with your marriage, but you can't carry her unhappiness, and project your own experiences.

Now, of course, I'm only going on the signals as I see them, and on a fleeting read. My opinion only, but I think that you need to back off completely. Find a life, and joy, somewhere else, for now. My lovely, wise MiL used to say "They'll need you before you need them." It worked for me.

Please note, my dear, that it's not my intention to upset or offend you. But self-analysis is so important to get things into perspective, and to prevent us being overwhelmed by our own emotions. By all means, call me a bee-atch and ignore my post if you think I'm being unfair or ignorant. I really wish you peace, and love, and all the best.

I'm not really sure what the son in laws sister has to do with this but you don't just 'decide' to be gay, you either are or you aren't. You're sounding quite judgemental yourself there tbh.

I wouldn't have left my children with someone who was getting so little sleep to be honest, it doesn't sound safe, regardless of the reason or intent. Glad you saw sense to end the arrangement.

Thanks Gran1111. Sometimes it's hard to pick up intent off the internet posts isn't it?

VioletSky. I have tried to talk to her like that and got blasted for it, so no more in depth talking. All I ended up doing is giving her more chance at criticisms and she got mad at me and didn't talk to me for 6 weeks.

Actually, we were super close up until high school. She did show signs then, but nothing really bad. Everyone said how lucky I was to have a daughter that liked to hang out with me.

Looking back, in high school she did once or twice act like she didn't like me, with no real cause, but I suspect that's when she made friends with, get this, the sister of my son in law.

This girlfriend is hard to describe but here's a clue....she is estranged from her mother by her own choice; she was raised catholic but is now a Wicken; she enjoys the occult , is morbidly obese, is in constant therapy, hates her mom and herself. She up and decided one day to become lesbian and got married to a woman which ended in divorce.

She talks about humanity coming together but displays hatred towards anyone who doesn't agree with her ideas about that. She is full on left wing let's cheer Antifa for burning down buildings, no joke, and all conservatives deserve to die.

Yes, this is my daughters best friend. To tell truth, I must have done something right in raising her because thank God she doesn't have quite the same intense hate in her heart. She has her political views but is more understanding of both sides and doesn't think people should be forced into believing everything on the media. So at least that.

Part of the reason her girlfriend (son in law's sister) is estranged from her mom is because her mom would not join her crusade in claiming gay people have it as bad in society as black slaves did!

I'm serious; she posted that on Facebook one time. Her mom, although it was against her religion, did not reject her daughters choice but it still didn't matter; her daughter expected a cheerleader for the gay community which her mom just could not do.

My daughter went through therapy, not sure if she still is but tell the truth I don't think it helped.

It's main purpose was to help her get over her husband, which I can tell (I know her), has not really happened but she hyper concentrates on her kids; I guess that might distract her, which is good, however puts enormous pressure on me and even my husband who tries to stay neutral and support her wishes with the kids, but she's also said some choice things about him too. We can do no right most days, unless we just simply get lucky.

Herefornow..... the answer to that is if she does, she must be a mind reader because I continually act like we are ok. I never pout say anything negative to her. I always tell her son he needs to listen to his mom; I offer to help her with things, act concerned if she needs anything, like I always have but lately my heart isn't really in it.

I am aware sometimes feelings can come out in facial expressions so I always concentrate on keeping mine very calm and smile a lot. But to tell the truth when I am around the grandkids, it's not really a fake thing. They are my only joy these days.

As far as menopause, she decided because I was so incapacitated (I would like to see her reaction to sleeping a total of 3 hours in 4 days on a regular basis) that I must actually be mentally ill, like bi-polar or something. Even when I finally saw an end to symptoms, she still believed that. I don't know what she thinks now and don't care as far as that nonsense goes. I love her but I am completely over her judgements......all of them......

I think she's probably picking up that you're biding your time until the grandkids are old enough to have an independent relationship with you?

Is it possible that you did forget some things while looking after the children when the menopause first started, ie before you stopped providing the childcare at that time. Perhaps your daughter doesn't know much about the menopause process or what it entails and you could reassure her that any impact on your memory (if there was such) was temporary (if it has been)?

Have you had a sit down and talked through with your daughter why she feels that way Eugenia?

That may help you in moving oast your current problems together.

Your son and daughter are different people, they may have needed different parenting. Maybe if you can understand her issues and hear how they affected her it might make things better for the future

Thank you for further clarifying, Eugenia. I think I better understand what you’re saying.