Looking for the right answer to criticisms.

This is a horrible situation. Your daughter sounds very unhappy and like she doesn't have many coping skills to deal with that. Not an excuse for shouting at you in front of the grandkids obv.

Its hard to know what to suggest...

Reasons will generally come off as excuses. If there is something you should apologise for, then hold your hands up to it and simply say, `that was wrong, i shouldn't have done it, I'm sorry`. If it's something you shouldn't apologise for, then state clearly, `i know you're angry but stop misdirecting that anger at me, i want to help you but you're not treating me fairly here.' leave the reasons until things are much calmer and make it a two way discussion about how you got to where you did, sums of what was going through your head, and some aknowledgement of how it might have come across - not excuses mind!

It sounds tbh like she's projecting her fears about herself onto you. Perhaps she hates her job and wishes she could be parenting instead, so finds it especially frustrating when you don't handle a situation as she thinks she would. Ive done this in the past with my partner where I've had rose tinted glasses about how i would have handled a situation (whereas in reality i wouldn't have done any better).

When i was younger I had really poor coping skills for negative emotions like anger. I simply wasn't taught these things the way kids are today. I was taught be seen and not heard, everything's fine, what problems could you possibly have etc etc. So, whenever i would feel angry or upset i grew to be ashamed of those emotions. I knew i should be able to squash them down, but rarely could, and they would just sort of burst out of me eventually. Totally misdirected usually. My dad was the same, looking back. Maybe your daughter also has trouble feeling confident about her emotions, so she's squishing them down (until they explode) rather then letting them out constructively? In this case, it might be helpful to say things like 'i understand why you feel that way', and avoid saying (invalidating) things like 'that thing you're worried about won't happen' etc. Not saying you do, just that it's an easy faux pas to make.

I hope that your daughter finds some happiness and, once the haze has cleared, she is able to find a way to show you what you mean to her.

don't try to justify yourself with her.
she sounds mentally disordered. she could probably do with some therapy but will not seek it.
it must be very difficult for you.
just try to lower the emotional temperature as far as possible.
with unreasonable people it is best to never outright contradict them, regardless of the situation.
are you able to take the child out, for a walk round the block, to give her some space, and you some peace and calm.
good luck.

I really appreciate your thoughtful and helpful view. I really think you are right about her squishing her feelings down. Her son is at an age of the usual manic stuff boys do but later outgrow. I noticed myself, he acts out....cries easily, gets angry and mean sometimes to his little sister. His behavior, even at 2 1/2 when the split happened, changed quite a bit. I think he is just one of those kids who feel effects of life more. He has been getting better lately.

So somehow I have to find the line between explanation and excuse; have to say sorry when wrong (that's not hard) but the hard part is figuring out how to deal with when she's just pissed. I wonder if a gentle reminder when she yells at please lets discuss not in front of the kids would just piss her off more? I have been reading about narcissists and am suspicious my husband is one, along with my daughter.

My husband has "rules" and character judgements, but he himself doesn't always follow them. He criticizes me when I don't. When I catch him in hypocrisy, he gets completely furious and I have read that narcissists hate being caught in hypocrisy or being called out; they do not handle criticism well. So if I do anything close to saying it's just her anger, I imagine I will never see the grands again.

Narcissists think they are perfect and also have a cold spot in their heart, just for anyone who exposes their imperfections.

My daughter has boasted many times how she is perfect at parenting, better than I was. She actually many times talked about my poor choice of a husband, her father (he's a difficult person) and it didn't even at that moment occur to her on her choice of husband, which arguably was much worse (my husband for all his faults didn't dump me). I simply answered, well what can I say, you think a person is one way at the beginning then you find out later they are not...... like you found that out too.

It's funny, in that moment I think she had no excuse to be angry....what I said was so true and said in an honest, direct way. No emotion, no I got you, just honest. For a brief moment, I was, in a roundabout way, able to make her see her hypocrisy in criticizing me when she did exactly no better than I.

It was a great moment and I never heard a word about my husband, again from her.

If only I could replicate such things, maybe there would be peace. Luckily I have written her a message about the latest anger she had at me and I thought it was very good at explaining, trying to reach out.

I asked my husbands opinion and he said it read like it was "all about me" yet told me nothing of how he came to that conclusion. I think narcissist's don't like anything not to be about them so they constantly accuse others of being selfish.

But I'm in luck. Now I can read it word for word to the therapist, since I will have another session this week. Perhaps she can enlighten me on why such a heartfelt note to my daughter reads like I am making it all about me, according to my husband and now I fear my daughter too. So if the therapist finds nothing wrong, I have that. If she does, then I can correct that language/tendency and maybe be better at communicating.

My daughter tends to not answer some messages, so I'm hoping I have washed this last incident that happened. I said something she didn't like and that set her off again.

I will know soon. I live in constant fear of losing access to my grandkids. Things go great for awhile then I do something she doesn't like and bammm I'm trying to fix it again.

One thing for sure. I have to learn to stop expressing anything around her and be careful what I say to grandkids too. Anything sets her off. It's a terrible way to live but my grandkids are worth it, especially my grandson who always tries to defend me. But a 4 year old cannot override his mom. Maybe later when he's older things will change.

All I know is my feelings for my daughter have been dampened. I still love her dearly but I really don't like her and don't see myself ever wanting to spend time with her if she remains like this.

I loved your sentiment at the end, I hope you are right but if that expression never comes from her I don't see myself being around her much and still putting up with abuse. I won't do that. Thank you again I will take your suggestions to heart.

Hello Welbeck. The last message was response to Herefornow. But I read yours and this part...."with unreasonable people it is best to never outright contradict them, regardless of the situation."

Bingo. You are right. My only fear is that it would make me appear guilty of all sorts of behaviors and intents that are not true. But I will pick my battles from now on and I think doing what you said will be the best course. I hope it works. We had another issue recently and I'm scared. I love my grandson so much I couldn't stand not to see him. He is only 4 and he treats me better than anyone else in my family. It's a sad but true statement.

It sounds like she's grown up watching you be demeaned and belittled by your husband and now she's grown she's taken to doing that herself.

I'd be wary of diagnosing her with a specific illness or disorder. It sounds like joint therapy might be useful, if you could get her to go with you.
That cold spot could well just be a defence mechanism slotting in to place. She's been hurt by how her marriage went so she's pushing you away in case you leave too. Also, she thought she had everything sorted out so that she and her kids would have a happy home, without someone like your husband in it, and then it's all fallen apart and she's terrified that the only choices are someone like your husband, or someone like her (ex) husband. Somehow, she's grown to resent you for not showing her what a healthy relationship is? I'm not saying that's right. But, yeah, those 3 things: her resenting you, and her being afraid of you/anyone else leaving her, her being unable to express her feelings confidently, all kind of mashes into this?

I think in the heat of the moment don't try any form of explanation (because anything will sound like an excuse), but yes, after the dust has settled, a conversation about the feelings and motivations on both sides could be helpful. And a reminder that you love her, and want to be there for her. Definitely don't tell her that you don't like her right now (even if it rings true), and don't try to keep your gs favour at the expense of her, this will be sure to drive a wedge.

I really fear that if your daughter has grown up learning its acceptable to treat you this way your gs will too. That will break your heart. You perhaps need to distance yourself a tiny bit from the kids, if only to protect yourself in that eventuality. Sorry you're going through this.

I think too that it is very possible your daughter has some learned behaviour from childhood.

I think it would be best for you to visit less often and be less involved in her life and issues. It's painful for you to see her marriage break down it that is where she needs you to be strong, not hurting too.

I think that yes, apologise when you have overstepped but when you haven't, you should just leave the situation. Do not be available for her to use you as an emotional punchbag.

Have you tried offering joint therapy? I think it could really help both of you

Very difficult situation for you. You should never take abuse though. It sounds as if your d has mental health issues. You don’t know what the marriage was like or why her husband left.
I know what you mean about saying the wrong thing and walking on eggshells it seems she has learnt behaviour from her father, you must be in hell getting it both sides. I do not believe anyone can ever find happiness when brow beaten, I would think of yourself for a while and why you are allowing this to happen, you are not worthless, your feelings matter as does your life. Take control of the situation and distance yourself for a while. It’s got to happen sometime because obviously no one’s happy.

Just a thought- I think it’s unfortunate that your grandchild is “defending you.” Your statement “Maybe later when he’s older things will change” makes me concerned that you might unintentionally signaling to him or others that you like when he does so. I think as adults we have to be careful that we do not give children the impression they must defend us as that’s a heavy burden to bear and unfair to them.

The things which are highlighted here for me, are how cowed, how bullied you are, frankly, it is your daughter who needs help to stop screaming and shouting at you, not you who needs help in how to take it. My heart goes out to your grandchildren who are witnessing this bullying and aggression, nobody is entitled to treat another person the way your daughter treats you, however badly her marriage ended. Could you maybe offer to look after the children at your home? This would give your grandchildren a bit of peace and less aggression, you too, and would enable your daughter to get some work done? Whatever happens, this cannot be allowed to continue, this is abuse, both of you and of your grandchildren.

I'm so sorry you are going through this Eugenia and agree with what Gill has said. You are being abused by your D and it is wrong that this is being witnessed by your GS who is clearly being affected by what he's seeing and hearing.

Of course if you do something to upset your D you should apologise but you are her mother, not her emotional punch bag and she does appear to be projecting her anger over the failure of her marriage onto you.

Would it be possible for you to take a step back, to be less available? This may enable your D to value and appreciate your support.

Your D's lack of respect may well stem from seeing how your H, her father treats you but that is no justification. She may well be afraid that she will lose you. She may be testing you but that said, she's an adult with children of her own and perhaps through counselling, needs to find appropriate ways to deal with her emotions and to see the potential harm her treatment of you may well be doing to them .

Some very wise advice here from several posters Eygenia. Maybe take a little time to think through the different perspectives to help you find a way forward for yourself. Throughout your thinking keep in the forefront that:

*you are no-ones emotional punchbag -neither your husbands nor your daughters
*that you can decide what your red line in behaviours is with either of them; what you might make allowance for, what is inexcusable!
*that whatever you decide you must think about yourself and your needs, not just everybody else's
*that your little grandson will be observing and absorbing what he observes ...a big reason for you to find a way through this that shows him a different way of being treated

I feel for you facing all this, so hard

What a sad situation Eugenia, your poor daughter, left whilst pregnant, she must have been so distressed. I'm wondering if she might have PTSD and PND as well. I often think when we are so distressed that we hit out at the people we love the most and feel closest to. She sounds like she is in agony. So difficult for you if she won't consider any outside help, eg counselling. So sad for you all

Thank you Herefornow I think alot of what you said is very true!

Thank you so much Allsorts for your response

Grandpanow.... .OOOhhhh good point on the grandson...will keep that in mind!

Thank you for those words!

Yes, thank you, a lot of that is true

It's really not good for the grandchildren to witness her behaviour towards you - and your lack of response. To them, it may become familiar and 'normal'.

I'd cut right back on the visits, however hard you find that to do. Perhaps you should meet on neutral ground, where she may have some manners. I hope she seeks the help and support she needs - but not from you.

Wow, thanks all for the answers. Very wise observations, some I didn't even think of, so thankyou all. I am going to work at this because my grandson is worth it. Today we had a party for my granddaughter who turned 2. I went well, I did everything right and we were all happy, thank God. Hope it lasts.

It sucks having separate parties, as the dad had one the day before. I can't help myself, for the life of me, I don't know what kind of 21 year old girl enjoys breaking up a family. My son in law of course is at fault but at the same time, I've heard so many men, even in good marriages, when given the opportunity to get a younger woman they usually go for it. That's not an excuse, but it seems to be a pattern.

It's sad. My son quoted a study that something like 70+ percent of men preferred the 20 ish year old range for a women as a partner, over a broad range of ages of men. Most don't get the opportunity. Most 20 something girls like the buff and young guys. I know I did! That's why I wonder what kind of girl would do this.

I do know her dad left her mom just a couple years ago. She should know the pain of a broken family. Guess she doesn't care. She preferred interfering in my daughters marriage than being a decent human. My son in law isn't even that good looking....he's way overweight, goes from job to job. I never understood why my daughter was into him but she was. I became very close to him, like a second son, over the years because I thought he was such a great guy. Guess we never know!

Thanks again everyone, for all the compassionate messages. It has helped me.

It takes two to break up a family. I don’t think the age of the person they go off with matters, the results the same. No one knows what goes on in a marriage, there could be any number of reasons. If you don’t love or want to be with your partner, should you stay? Should you stay with someone abusive, verbally or physically for example.Some do for the rest of their life. It’s very hard on the one that’s left, to bring up children as a lone parent, it’s not what they ever wanted, but in the end you have to deal with it.

Eugenia I am glad you had a good day

I think your son in law has to take responsibility for his behaviour and his choices, not the 21 year old woman he has chosen to be with.

I am so sorry this is such a problem for you but this is not going to be a ‘there there’ post …YOU have to change and when you change peoples will stop treating you so poorly

You are still concentrating on what happened within the marriage and your daughter has asked you not to so the first thing to do is completely stop all the worrying about the past, he has left for someone else it is sad, frustrating and upsetting but it’s happened and your daughter has moved on or wants to …you have to stop thinking about it and analysing it constantly
why shouldn’t he give the children a party? all you should concentrate on is that you had a great time at your daughters party…. but the whole of the last post was about your feelings for him and his new love …perhaps this is what drives her crazy, although I understand you are trying hard not to

When my youngest got divorced she said to me I don’t want to talk about it I told her I was there for her if and when she did, years on and she never has, some people just don’t want to talk maybe she talks it over with friends I don’t know but it’s her choice I don’t think I told my parents all that much myself although we had an excellent relationship

Are you too enmeshed with your daughter does she need more space from you ?
Does she work from home as you talk about the grandson making a mess while she’s doing her paperwork can’t you take the children out Take them to the park, out shopping, out for a walk or a bus ride any adventure except in the house
Presumable the older one will be back at school or nursery after this week
You only talk about the little boy like he s your only friend in the world ( that is not healthy) but what about the other little one
I love my grandson so much I couldn't stand not to see him. He is only 4 and he treats me better than anyone else in my family this is dangerous you are putting too much on this little chaps shoulders a 4 year old should not be defending you You are an adult and need to defend yourself

Why are you at your daughters so much? Is your ever presence driving her mad if she’s trying to get things back to normal
Please use your counselling to build ‘you’ up to find more strength and more interest outside your daughter and grandchildren you are projecting all your fears and weaknesses on this new generation it needs to stop the little guy already sees and feels too much

I know you will hate my post and I m sorry I do feel for you but YOU need to change then others behaviour towards you will also change
Good luck Eugenie

After reading *Bluebelle's post. I scrapped what I was about to say.

She is so right all the way down the whole post.

Me too M0nica