Handling Duty/Obligation as the "estranger" ;

Smileless2012

Yes that's right about public forums DiamondLily and I think it was recently suggested on the support thread about a private chat room being set up. That's not what's we want because we want the support and what is shared there to be accessible to everyone.

It might be something you'd like to consider though Mia as you feel this thread is being taken over.

Yes, I agree with those two basic statements riete.

The problem with chat rooms is that they are held in "real time" and it's difficult to get everybody on at the same time.

Most have fairly busy real lives, and the chat rooms often fade away with lack of people.

Closed forums can be very insular with the same small group repeating themselves and going around in repetitive circles. (I know from some of the disability ones.)

Open forums are best, if everyone remains courteous. Debate and conversation is ok, hectoring and personal attacks are not.?

Yes that's right about public forums DiamondLily and I think it was recently suggested on the support thread about a private chat room being set up. That's not what's we want because we want the support and what is shared there to be accessible to everyone.

It might be something you'd like to consider though Mia as you feel this thread is being taken over.

Yes, I agree with those two basic statements riete.

MissAdventure

No, you post wherever and whatever you want.
Hope that helps you.

Yep, public forums are there for anyone to post on, on whatever thread, providing the site rules are adhered to, with no abuse etc.,

Closed groups are different, as the admin can decide who they want on them.

For what it's worth, since I've been lurking and posting, this place works pretty well. Differences of opinion are normal, but no harm done really, unless one group start accusing another group of with lying or denying the truth.

Every estrangement is different. The only people that understand their own scenario, fully, are those involved in it. ?

i've just read through thursday's posts, and there's a lot of stuff. not all of it valuable, but some of it very valuable. so, many thanks to those with a positive attitude.

but my bottom line for today is, is there any point in us looking for the very simplest starting point that we might all be able to agree?

i think we could start with two basic statements:

there are those who estrange, and those who are estranged; and each "camp" has multitudinous scenarios and viewpoints.

those who estrange do it (by and large) because they think/hope they will feel better/happier by so doing. and those who are estranged (by and large) are not happy about it.

i'd be very pleased to know if anyone agrees with those two, and if they don't maybe what they disagree with.

I will never understand why there can not be 2 support threads.

I am out though! No sense in having the same conversation again TBH. We all know where we stand and nothing is accomplished by rehashing.

I hope you all are getting some relief from the heat over there!

No, you post wherever and whatever you want.
Hope that helps you.

MissAdventure

Like you did on the support for estrangement thread, you mean?

Are you saying I'm not welcome on the support thread? People keep saying it's for everyone, its in the title, etc and yet people don't seem to be very supportive.

I'm back on the support thread because I need support due to this thread being taken over. If this thread can ever get back to its purpose, I won't need support.

I hope that helps

Anyway, I really am out now.
Promise.

Like you did on the support for estrangement thread, you mean?

MissAdventure

There is no conversation to be had, if parents are expected to just sit back and agree that they were useless, though, which is what is happening.
No toxicity, just people defending themselves by pointing out that each situation is different.

If that puts people off posting, I'm surprised, because it is nothing personal towards them.

How could it be, since nobody knows anyone else, or their family dynamics personally.

No toxicity, just people defending themselves by pointing out that each situation is different.

Defending themselves = Coming into a thread that wasn't meant for them to tell everyone how great they are as parents and how much they dont deserve what their terrible kid did. Attacking credible sources that don't agree with their own opinions...I could go on.

If that puts people off posting, I'm surprised, because it is nothing personal towards them

Uh, it's not about it being personal. People give up on posting because they see that the usual suspects will inevitably come and turn it into a variation of "youre wrong and im right bc im the mom lalalala". It's beating your head against a brick wall and most people prefer not to do that.

Seriously, why must people keep coming in and giving the same opinion over and over on threads not meant for them...then get upset when someone posts on their friend thread?

Let people have the space to share their feelings without being invalidated.

EAC hear:

"My parent was awful but I would never estrange"

"You will regret it one day"

"How will you feel when they die"

"Emotional abuse isn't as bad as physical or sexual abuse"

" You only have one mother"

EP hear:

"There is no smoke without fire"

"You must have done something wrong"

Obviously off the top of my head it's easier to give examples of what have been said to me and I'm afraid, much more here in this place than anywhere else. I work with an EP and she has never said anything negative and mothers me a bit.

It's not very nice, it's not.

I think it's probably easy for people to look at me at the times when I have been unwell or emotional and I have been reactive to triggers... then think "well she is obviously the problem" forgetting that my mother installed those trigger buttons and healing is how l move past them.

But as much as I've given advice from an AC perspective or taked about abusive parents I can genuinely say, I don't think I've ever said to any EP any variation of those two examples...

I may have tried to tell them they were triggering me in the past.

We could all move past this. People could read this forum and come to join the discussion instead of coming in hot and triggered.

If any of that makes sense, work is hectic, I'm exhausted and hurting and I need sleep that is being elusive.

Oops, that should have said 'that if they say' not that if they they.

I agree imaround that is the issue here and TBH I don't think we'll ever know why estrangement happens.

We can talk about our own experiences. An EAC can talk about the things that led to them estranging their parent(s), the things their parent(s) did, but will they ever really know why, or understand why they did those things?

It's the same for EP's. I can and do talk about the things that resulted in our son estranging us, but I'll never understand why the love that I know we once shared wasn't enough to prevent it from happening. Why the influence of a third party was strong enough to destroy something that I thought could never be destroyed.

I agree that saying over and over again that some EAC were abused and not all EP's are abusive can be counter productive, but this is what happens when people feel, as MissA's posted that they have to defend themselves.

Does it really matter to an EAC who estranged because of abuse if it's believed that's why most AC estrange? I can't answer that because although I experienced abuse it wasn't at the hands of my parents and I was never in a position to estrange my abuser.

That said, if I were to be asked if it really matters to an EP if it's believed that abuse is the reason most AC estrange, my answer would be yes. It matters because it can make an EP feel that if they they never abused their EAC, they wont be believed.

Possible answers

Some AC are in abusive relationships with spouces distancing them from family.

Some AC are making up abuse

Some EP are making up innocence

All abusive people are lying about their behaviour

How likely each of those are I can't quantify for certain...

The OP asks about handling feeling of duty and obligation.

It seems the estrangement threads on gransnet move inexorably towards polarised posts from EAC and EPs, generally seeking to put most of ‘the blame’ onto the EAC or EP.
Is it impossible to acknowledge that estrangement is a dreadful experience for everyone in touches.
I’m clear that in some situations adult children and/or, parents reach the point where estrangement becomes the only healthy response.

Not all people are kind, honest or honourable. Some adults abuse or neglect their children. Some people have distorted views of their family life. No winners here.

Anyway, the thread does ask for estrangers' perspectives, so I'll mind my own business now. as I should have done in the first place

I'm not going to trawl back and give all the examples, but that is the whole tone of the thread, I would say.

When did anyone say that parents were expected to sit back and say they were useless?

Asking why there is a difference in what is being reported is not expecting anyone to admit they are wrong.

There is no conversation to be had, if parents are expected to just sit back and agree that they were useless, though, which is what is happening.
No toxicity, just people defending themselves by pointing out that each situation is different.

If that puts people off posting, I'm surprised, because it is nothing personal towards them.

How could it be, since nobody knows anyone else, or their family dynamics personally.

Smileless, that is actually the issue here. This isn't about how many responded. The real problem is, why are the results from each side so different?

It doesn't matter if it is one respondant or a million, the mere fact that what they are saying is the problem.

We all know that some EAC were abused. We know not all EP are abusive. Saying it over and over and over again on every single post is counter-productive and does nothing to further the conversation and advance the knowledge of WHY estrangement happens and how to prevent it in the future.

I totally agree with the first paragraph of your post @ 20.02 VS. What matters is what we have experienced as EP's and as EAC.

I also agree with you imaround "how much data would be enough?". It can provide an insight as to why estrangement happens, it can be a useful tool in prevention from both sides but we are talking about people, emotions and feelings. For me, no amount of data will explain the discrepancy between what EAC and EP's say.

I think if a million EAC were surveyed and the results for each were the same than yes, that would be a solid foundation to work with. But would happen if a million EP's were also surveyed, and their results were all the same but those results were totally opposite to those from the million EAC?

True

Parenting has changed since I had my kids and mine are teens and young adults.

I still do not believe that past parenting practices necessarily make someone an abusive person though.

imaround

100% VS

What our parents and parents parents et al did in the past was not wrong at the time.

No it wasn't, but we have to understand that it was damaging.

We all have to work with the information given.

I've parented over quite a large span and I have felt how hard it is to know xyz is actually researched and proven as wrong.

So I've adapted and will apologise if I ever need too for any future changes

At a basic level, my mother was punish the behaviour and I was always understand the cause