Handling Duty/Obligation as the "estranger" ;

100% VS

What our parents and parents parents et al did in the past was not wrong at the time.

imaround I think some of that discrepancy comes from actual changes in parenting/parenting advice/parenting guidelines and differences of opinion over discipline, how children should behave and how we relate to children and understand their mental health individual needs and just how intelligent and deserving of respect they are

I'm saying that I agree wholeheartedly with DerbyshireLass's @ post 11.44 imaround.

How much data would be enough? I ask that seriously. And, since the repondants this these studies answered honestly, what makes you think that a larger field of participants would change the findings?

Hypothetically, if there were a million EAC who responded and the results were the same, would you still think the same way?

This conversation will not go forward until everyone looks at the data, however limited it is, and says why is there such a discrepancy in what EAC and EP report?

* Smileless* I don't think it matters what "most" people in a survey say unless what actually matters is how we think that reflects on us..

If 80% or most of the respondants said they estranged because they couldnt be bothered with their parents I would be saying the exact same thing.

I've tried to be fair in the past and say that we could call it 50/50 and when it comes to whether a relationship breaking down was due to the parent or adult child and that wasn't accepted either...

But it still doesn't matter. If most AC did genuinely estrange due to abuse, it doesn't impact anyone's individual situation or make it less valid.

Individual situations are still dictated by the behaviour that caused them and that matters and I would tell anyone that statistics may give information but help and support must be available to everyone who needs it. Even if it was just 1% that help and support is needed and we should not make assumptions.

Especially as Stand Alone is a wonderful resource for anyone dealing with estrangement or concerned with preventing it.

It seems right that they would look into it from all angles and ask these questions.

I am not really interested in resolving my estrangement situation but I am interested in how and why it happened and how to prevent it in future.

Think of it like surviving cancer and continuing to donate for a cure.

I realise that your last question was for Chewbacca imaround but as an EP I would say that yes, estrangement does need to be viewed with acceptance because there's nothing you can do to change it.

I don't think it's ever truly possible to look at it with optimism and positivity though, when you have lost the child you love.

No not at all imaround. What I'm saying is that for me, there is insufficient data to support a claim that most EAC estrange because of abuse. There's no bias either way.

Are you saying that EP should look at their estrangement with acceptance. Optimism and positivity as well Chewbacca?

Are you saying that Cambridge University is biased towards EAC Smileless?

DerbyshireLass has indeed a very healthy and forward looking approach to estrangement; acceptance that this is the way it is, optimism and positivity looking forward, don't waste a moment looking back at what might have been.

I pointed out the sample sizes Mia because when they are relatively small for me, that makes it unreasonable to suggest that they demonstrate that most EAC estrange because of abuse.

Sample size is usually taken into account when considering the
outcome and conclusions of sociological surveys. Is it a quantitative or qualitative survey for example.

Yes, rejecting data that doesn't conform to one's beliefs is confirmation bias, but questioning data that has been presented to support a particular argument or point of view that someone, in this case me, found wanting is entering into discussion/debate.

They genuinely don't make me feel weak, but it isn't nice to think others view you that way.

I have genuinely surprised myself at how strong I actually am after estranging.

A lifetime of being told I was difficult, worthless, would never amount to anything, unlikely unlovable and nit good enough.

If only I had known sooner that I didn't have to tolerat that or let it dictate my self worth.

I'm not a perfect human some days are hard, some days are emotional some days are stressful etc

I'm almost..... normal lol

Oh and violetsky, never let anyone who chose differently make you feel weak. It takes strength to establish and maintain boundaries, especially with parents and other family members.

violetsky

I grieve the relationship I might have had with my bio mom had she not died, but I also ask myself "would she have liked me?". I don't think she would've as most of what I know about her indicates she was caught up in the toxic family dynamic as well.

Maybe I'd be a different person if she'd lived but I have no idea. It's more comforting to think that she would have liked and loved me as the person I am today, and I find myself grieving that most of all. It feels silly though bc I'm grieving my imagination so to speak.

The grief for my aunt is more complicated as she's still around and I know she doesn't like me.

She says she loves me but I think what she really means is she's attached to being an authority figure over me. If she can't have that then she wants nothing.

I used to try to mend the relationship at times, talk through the problems, etc but she really doesn't want to solve anything, she just wants to be right.

I don't grieve my father at all as I have no love lost for someone who could abandon their 3 yr old child whose mother died. I know without a doubt that I'm better off without him in my life, and I don't care what anyone says, I OWE HIM NOTHING.

You aren't alone in your feelings of guilt,grief, etc. and I hope that brings some measure of comfort

imaround

In this case, the only person whose opinion of toxicity matters is the one estranging. Those parents can listen and respect that OR they can call it all subjective and dismiss the reasons.

The respondants in that peer reviewed valid scientific study cited the reasons they estranged. No one seems to be listening.

Those of you who are citing problems with sample size, interpretation bias, methodology, etc. about research data from Cambridge University, please contact them with your concerns and let me know that they say. I'm genuinely curious!

Rejecting data that doesn't conform to your beliefs is called confirmation bias and it affects everyone.

There's a Canadian author by the name of Louise Penny and she writes a fiction series that follows Chief Inspector Armand Gamauche.

Gamauche tells new police officers that there are 4 phrases that lead to wisdom:
1. I'm sorry
2. I was wrong
3. I don't know
4. I need help

Such simple phrases but such an important message. It's okay to be wrong or not to know something, but we grow by admitting we need help sometimes and apologizing when we were wrong.

Again thank you so much imaround.

I mentioned guilt for me.

But there was also the grief.

It's harder to talk about the grief because I don't know if people will always understand.

I grieved everything I wanted the relationship to be. I grieved the mother I needed. I grieved the it like a death.

And I didn't stop hoping that she could love me enough to fix herself for a long time so it was ongoing...

I don't know exactly when that hope died, it just fizzled out but I still occasionally find myself thinking "I want my mum" but it's not the mum I have.

I think not having a loving parent is one of the most devastating things a child can face. We are programmed to want and need our mothers. So much depends on having formed a good attachment to a mother.

Maybe those who didn't estrange simply had a different experience to me, or maybe they see me as weak.

I don't see myself as weak, I'm strong, in a different way

I commend you for trying Mia. I think being able to discuss the feeling associated with the choice to estrange is helpful for those who feel it.

I hope that those who are lurking and saying they do not feel safe discussing it here are able to find somewhere they do feel safe discussing it.

Iam64

Thanks Derbyshire lass. The focus on love and thinking positively is what’s helped me most during my adult life.

And me. Life is too short for permanent angst and dwelling on the past.

Onwards and upwards, looking to the future.??

Thanks Derbyshire lass. The focus on love and thinking positively is what’s helped me most during my adult life.

Oh dear that is a shame. A couple of EP's are taking a break from the estrangement forum for very similar reasons, and I'm also sorry that people are being affected in this way.

Hopefully things will settle down.

Good morning everyone!

In the wise words of VioletSky, I'm going to let people's words stand for themselves .

As an astronomy nerd, this is the emotional equivalent of talking to flat-earthers.

How about we try to get this back on track, meaning my OP?

"Estrangers", I know you're out there from the private messages I've received trying to help me.

One person said that she's too afraid to post here because of the toxicity and suggested a friendlier space, while another person said that she had to step away from the forum because the dynamic is the exact one she has with her mother and she had a panic attack.

I'm so sorry that people are being affected this way. Please don't risk your mental health for strangers on the internet, it's never ever worth it.

I think we can provide support for each other, it'll just require us to handle things differently. In my case, I'm just going to stop reading/responding to posts from certain OP's who have shared enough and focus on the people who are trying to respect the spirit of the thread.

Thanks yall, (yeah I lived in texas, but am not a texan )

How messy it all is

Indeed it is Mandrake

Normandygirl

The definition of abuse for me comes down to intent. If the behaviour, physical, verbal or otherwise is deliberate and intended to cause harm/hurt to the other then I label it abuse. Only the parties involved know whether that intention was there, so anyone outside of the situation is not qualified to label it as abusive or not.

Yes, I agree with you - some things are examples of poor parenting, but not everything is abuse.

Life and circumstances can cause people to behave badly, at times. We've all done it, because humans aren't perfect.

In most cases, families forgive and forget - and get in with life, and each other, although well aware of each other's shortcomings.

Obviously, where intentional abuse has occurred, whatever it's type, there can't be too much forgiveness.

sorry Mandrake I missed the 'n' out of your name.

I totally agree with that Madrake for me too "If the behaviour, physical, verbal or otherwise is deliberate and intended to cause harm/hurt to the other then I label it abuse".

Very well put.

What a fabulous post DSL .