Handling Duty/Obligation as the "estranger" ;

How messy it all is. Indeed.

Call me an old hippy but I truly believe the best way out of the mess is love and kindness. If you can't manage that, then settle for compassion and understanding,

I have said all I have to say on the subject. The real world is calling and I have a ton of stuff to get through. I have told you my story, explained what worked for me. If it helps someone then great, if not and you feel my experience is irrelevant to your circumstances well that's ok too.

It's cost me nothing but a few hours of my time when it was too hot to do anything else but stay indoors and hang around the internet. Now it's time for me to crack on.

Tempus Fugit and all that.

BTW. I meant to say Mia, thanks for the links. I am familiar with most of them. My own take is that whilst statistics are very useful in explaining how many etc. they sometimes fall short of explaining the whys and wherefores.

I appreciate that as an astrophysist your brain will lean towards science for explanations. Mine works differently, I always look to the liberal arts. History, anthropology, philosophy, literature.

Neither approach is either right or wrong. They just come at the same problems from different angles. Both disciplines have attracted some of the greatest minds through history. Surprisingly they often come together with the same results and conclusions.

You will notice I am a great one for quoting literature. I find a lot of my answers in the works of the great literary giants who understood the human condition and who were able to translate their wisdom into an easily accessible form, books, stories, plays, poems.

I am actually an aetheist but even so I can still appreciate the value of some religious teachings.

The great Ghandi who taught us how to use passive resistance with devastating effect. Martin Luther King who taught us how to stand up to oppression with quiet dignity and courage. John Lennon who asked us to just simply "Imagine".

And probably the greatest literary giant of all, Shakespeare who seems light ahead of his time but who seemed to understand what makes humans tick. Good and bad. Yes I know not all his thoughts were original, he borrowed freely. But isn't that what the best minds do, they remain open and are prepared to explore all possibilities. They cherry pick from the best, building on the knowledge of centuries.

How does all this equate to estrangement ....well I think it helps us look for creative solutions to what are often very difficult and sometimes seemingly intractable problems.

However, I genuinely believe that nothing is impossible. Ok we can't cheat death forever, the grim reaper gets us all in the end, but even in the most hopeless situation there is often a way forward, As Audrey Hepburn (herself a victim Of WW2, she almost starved) is quoted as saying the word impossible can be broken down to mean "l'm possible".

Before I leave you all heres my recipe for a happy, successful and productive life.

Resolve to be happy.
It's never too late to make a fresh start in life, it ain't over till it's over.
The world owes you nothing.
You can change your stars.
Your future is yours to make.
Your life is yours to mould and shape.
If you are lying in the gutter you can still look up at the stars.
No one can take your dreams .
Never look back in anger, always look forward with hope and optimism.
Don't think small, dream big.

And finally - if your dreams don't scare you, they aren't big enough.

Farewell and good luck to you all.

The definition of abuse for me comes down to intent. If the behaviour, physical, verbal or otherwise is deliberate and intended to cause harm/hurt to the other then I label it abuse. Only the parties involved know whether that intention was there, so anyone outside of the situation is not qualified to label it as abusive or not.

DerbyshireLass I agree 100% with your excellent post @ 09.05, particularly no longer shackled to a miserable past. Therein lies the key.

Indeed Madgran both EP's and EAC's are capable of listening or dismissing.

I'm not sure what you mean why you say "no one seems to be listening" imaround. I agree, and would say that in every case the "the only person whose opinion of toxicity that matters is the one estranging".

Which is why IMO generalisations like 'in most cases' for example, disrupt the conversation.

Mandrake

I'm sure that every child who estranges (or every parent who estranges their child) feels they have very valid reasons.

imaround - I am not an EP and get on very well with my CIL so far. The subjectivity I'm referring to is reflecting on my MIL's perceptions of my toxic behaviour (in her opinion). As far as I'm concerned, her behaviour was out of line, she thinks I'm out of line. So, subjective on both sides there! Big difference is that I'm willing to dialogue and listen, she is not.

And with this post I suppose I am invalidating my MIL's reasons. I'll acknowledge her feelings and viewpoint but it won't change the way I live. Truth be told though, I'm sure we could have worked out a nice relationship if she hadn't been invalidating of me. Maybe each party invalidates each other and feels justified doing so? How messy it all is.

In this case, the only person whose opinion of toxicity matters is the one estranging. Those parents can listen and respect that OR they can call it all subjective and dismiss the reasons

It is true that the person who has been estranged can listen or dismiss ..whether they are an EAC or EP.

I'm sure that every child who estranges (or every parent who estranges their child) feels they have very valid reasons.

imaround - I am not an EP and get on very well with my CIL so far. The subjectivity I'm referring to is reflecting on my MIL's perceptions of my toxic behaviour (in her opinion). As far as I'm concerned, her behaviour was out of line, she thinks I'm out of line. So, subjective on both sides there! Big difference is that I'm willing to dialogue and listen, she is not.

In this case, the only person whose opinion of toxicity matters is the one estranging. Those parents can listen and respect that OR they can call it all subjective and dismiss the reasons.

The respondants in that peer reviewed valid scientific study cited the reasons they estranged. No one seems to be listening.

I agree imaround and have seen the reasons why some EAC estrange that you've listed numerous times both here and on other sites.

There are numerous reasons why AC estrange, physical/emotional abuse or a combination is one, but IMO there is insufficient evidence to support a claim that is the reason in most cases.

I do not agree with your revised statement Mia that "Most estranged children are victims of parental toxicity and abuse" IMO there just isn't sufficient evidence to support this.

This for me is the problem when this issue is discussed on an open forum. As you've posted Mandrake "Toxic behaviour can be subjective" what is deemed as toxic by one, may not be regarded as toxic by another.

It's the same for overstepping boundaries, lack of respect, not listening, not liking a partner, not agreeing with the way children are raised, being scapegoated, not being or being the golden child, not being accepted; the list goes on.

These are things that are experienced on an individual and personal level. My brother was mum's golden child, she didn't always listen to me and there were times when I felt scapegoated but I didn't estrange her.

Despite those issues, we loved one another and in may ways had a good relationship. For some, those reasons would underpin the decision to estrange which is fair enough. For some those behaviours maybe considered as toxic and even emotionally abusive, that's fair enough too.

If that is how someone has experienced their childhood, whose to say they are wrong? Likewise, when an EP says they weren't abusive, don't know why they've been estranged or the estrangement happened due to the coercive, controlling and manipulative behaviour of their AC's partner, whose to say that isn't the case?

Surveys have their place in these discussions of course but they are not infallible, and with such an understandably small sample, are not wholly representative of why most EAC estrange.

MiaZadora81

" It doesn't say that they were happy as kids and the emotional abuse started in adulthood"
I would think that if childhood abuse was the cause for the estrangement they would have cited that as a reason?
Data is all well and good but we have to be careful of interpretation bias though

Mandrake

Toxic behaviour can be subjective though. Was it toxic of us to move to another city, within easy driving distance, for a more affordable family life? Was it toxic of us to not want MIL treating our home as her own and having limits on how often visiting worked for us? I don't think so but it was enough for MIL to turn her back on us. She'd probably tell you we were the estrangers but she was the one who said she was walking away. She is the estranger.

There is no longer any coming back from that and I feel no duty towards her. Even as a very loyal person. She made her bed.

I would help her a little if she needed it but with firm limitations. She has chosen not to have a place in my life.

Mandrake I think that is very true that perception and interpretation play a big part in estrangement, that "toxic" can be subjective etc. Not all estrangements ofcourse but it is something that I can see in many estrangements discussed on here, both by EPs and EACs.

I think those of us who had parents who had lived through WW2 often had less than idyllic childhoods. They lived through horrors that left them deeply traumatised and damaged and unable to parent effectively.

This does not condone their abuse but it does help us understand, well it did help me to understand. And, as I grew up, this understanding helped me handle my father and manage my situation.

Whatever the rights and wrongs he was my father and I always felt he deserved kindness and compassion. He served his country for 9 years. For his funeral we arranged for members of his old regiment to help carry his coffin and deliver a eulogy. He deserved no less. He didn't deserve to be estranged, and I would never have abandoned him.

As for the hypothetical kidneys........well thankfully I wasn't put to the test. When he contracted leukaemia I did ask his doctor if he would benefit from a bone marrow transplant but apparently not.

Would I have given some bone marrow. Yes.

No doubt some will think that I too am damaged and see me as a victim.. I don't feel this at all. Yes my life got off to a shaky start and it could have been easier, but that's all water under the bridge. I have had a fantastic life and hopefully I've still got even more ahead of me. I made it my business to have a happy and successful life.

I had the good sense and the ability to, as Diamond Lil says, "put my childhood to bed". I would urge anyone who has suffered childhood trauma to do the same. Get counselling if you need it. Do what it takes. For some that well mean estrangement but some might not need such a drastic solution. You might be able to manage by simply stepping back with reduced contact.

Estrangement should be the final resort when all else has failed. It is not a quick fix, nor is it the solution to all your problems. You cannot shrug off your problems by running away from them. I tried it, it doesn't work. ?. As I teenager I ran away from home several times but I couldn't run away from my problems.

"Wherever you go, there you are".

You can't outrun your life, you have to take a stand and change it.

And no I'm not telling anyone to turn the other cheek, I certainly didn't. I fought back. You don't have to forgive and certainly you must never forget. Instead learn from the experience so that you can grow and become a bigger better person than your tormentor.

Don't let hurt, anger and bitterness hold you back from living a full and joyous life. Theres an old saying that revenge is a dish best served cold, I say the best revenge is to live your best life and be happy. Confound those who would hurt you.

Bearing a grudge serves no purpose, it will only corrupt your soul and destroy your chance of happiness.

Above all show a little kindness and compassion, first to yourself and then to everyone else. Fill your life with love. Love is like a boomerang, you send it out into the world and it comes back to you.

If you can't love then at least show mercy. As the Bard said.

"The quality of mercy is not strained, it droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed - it blesseth him that gives, and him that takes".

Wise words.

Love and mercy are healing balm. Practice them and you will be set free, no longer shackled to a miserable past.

Speaking of rain......it's raining here ....... at last. ? ?.

DerbyshireLass

Only one of the reasons Mia. And not the principal reason, not by a long shot.

The principal reason was for me, for my sake. My well being. I wanted to rest easy with a clear conscience. I wanted to look in the mirror and like what I saw. I wanted to fulfil my duties and obligations, I wanted to be a good daughter. I wanted to be the bigger, better person. I wanted to be kind to a man who couldn't help what he was.

My choices. Obviously my solution to my problem won't suit everyone but it worked and still works for me. No regrets.

Because of my choice my children had grandparents in their lives. If I had estranged my father then they wouldn't have had them. They would have missed out.

Yes, I did the same.

I put my childhood "to bed" and got on with adult life. It worked for me too. I let go of the past years ago.

As for hypothetical kidneys, then, yes, if suitable I would have donated one to the mother.

I know, categorically, whatever our relationship, that she would have done the same for me.

Thankfully, the situation didn't arise. ?

Chewbacca

I think that, for our parents generation, that was probably a common occurrence Iam64. Our parents rarely, if ever, spoke of what they'd experienced during the war years and the psychological trauma that ensued. No therapy or counselling available and so a whole generation had to grow up dealing with the aftermath. Tragic for everyone.

I certainly think the war affected my mother. They lived in London's East end throughout the war, lost 3 houses to bombs, and when the last bomb hit, my mother, age 14, helped to dig out her father - he was dead when they pulled him out. ?

So, I think it affected her whole life. It's difficult for anyone born after the last war to really understand the horrors that some went through. It's not an excuse for anything, but I do think it affected many lives.

My stepson has bounced us in and out of estrangement for 18 years.

He wasn't abused - he freely admits my DH was a great Dad.?

He just wants money, and is having a massive tantrum because we won't comply.

He can thrash about all he likes - we don't do threats, and we don't subsidise alcohol abuse or gambling.?

When my DH was very ill last year, he even asked him how much he'd be left in DH's Will - well, he's in for a shock now, as he's been cut out completely...?

Toxic behaviour can be subjective though. Was it toxic of us to move to another city, within easy driving distance, for a more affordable family life? Was it toxic of us to not want MIL treating our home as her own and having limits on how often visiting worked for us? I don't think so but it was enough for MIL to turn her back on us. She'd probably tell you we were the estrangers but she was the one who said she was walking away. She is the estranger.

There is no longer any coming back from that and I feel no duty towards her. Even as a very loyal person. She made her bed.

I would help her a little if she needed it but with firm limitations. She has chosen not to have a place in my life.

I am happy to see this discussion start to provide good stats. Those reports mirror what I have heard when talking to other EAC online. One of the reasons I started lurking and then joined GN was because I wanted to see the other side of estrangement and try to learn more.

I do have to say though, that I barely posted on this thread. Since I became a member over (?) 2 years ago, the conversation has not changed. The same people are arguing over the same discussion day after day and it is getting tiresome TBH. I do not see why each group can not have a safe space without interference and come together in other threads? We both exist here, that is not going to change. We can both support each other and disagree at the same time while giving each other the space we need in different threads. GN is literally the only forum I have been on where some of its members are so adamant about being able to post on threads that simply may not pertain to them. Yes, you can. But should you? And why? That was rhetorical, I don't really want to argue over the answers.

Anyhow, I wanted to post about this:

*Parental disapproval of their spouse or partner
Interfering in their life choices, careers, parenting styles etc
Religious differences
Ignored boundaries
Overbearing and undermining grandparenting
Parents having perceived favourites among siblings.*

I have seen these reasons online as well, though I do not remember if it was an official study or not. While some of these behaviors may not be abusive, they are toxic. In my life, if a toxic behavior is addressed and the person chooses to continue the toxic behavior, that continued behavior then becomes abusive. So while not being abusers in the traditional sense, they can choose to continue abusive behaviors.

I have never disagreed with anyone who has said that not all EP were abusive. Because not all EP are abusive. But none of us can have a true discussion about estrangement without acknowledging that MANY (not all) EAC are reporting estrangement choices are due to toxic behavior and abuse AND the fact that MANY EP are reporting reasons that are directly opposite of that.

I applaud the OP for trying to open this discussion up again. Sadly, I am not optimistic that the discussion will continue.

Normandygirl

MiaZadora 81

" Most estranged children were abused/neglected in some way"

That statement suggests that the EAC's were abused or neglected during their upbringing. That is true for some but as I have already said most AEC's have perfectly fine childhoods but find their adult relationships with their parents difficult for lots of reasons. The use of the word abuse is massively overused.

Please provide the source for this statement: "That is true for some but as I have already said most AEC's have perfectly fine childhoods but find their adult relationships with their parents difficult for lots of reasons. The use of the word abuse is massively overused."

Because your source, the hidden voices report, says "For mothers and fathers, the most commonly cited factors are similar, with the most commonly cited factor being identified as emotional abuse."

Page 11, top right corner.

It doesn't say that they were happy as kids and the emotional abuse started in adulthood, but I'm looking forward to reading about that because that's super interesting. I love data.

MiaZadora 81

" Most estranged children were abused/neglected in some way"

That statement suggests that the EAC's were abused or neglected during their upbringing. That is true for some but as I have already said most AEC's have perfectly fine childhoods but find their adult relationships with their parents difficult for lots of reasons. The use of the word abuse is massively overused.

Normandygirl I linked that as a resource and have attached an image.

Go to page 11.

"A great range and diversity of factors were identified as contributing to the breakdown of relationships. *The five factors that were most commonly cited as being ‘very relevant’ to relationship breakdown with mothers and fathers separately are listed below. *"

Now, look at the table. It lists the 5 most common reasons given by children estranged from parents. 77% of people estranged from mothers cite emotional abuse, while 59% of people estranged from fathers cite emotional abuse.

Again, I didn't say abuse is the only reason. And now that smileless2012 pointed it out, i was wrong and really should say : "Most estranged adult children estrange due to parental toxicity and abuse".

And at 77% and 59% reporting emotional abuse, yeah that's most.

Madgran 77

It was a study done by Cambridge University called "Hidden Voices" Estrangement in Adulthood.
I have it in paper format but a google should find it for you.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-747325-estrqangement.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-746514-abusetoxicity.jpg

Smileless2012, let's practice reading data together.

Let's have a look at page 10 of the stand alone voices pdf, ive attached an image. What's the top reason children gave for estranging their parents? EMOTIONAL ABUSE

Second site: you ignored the words until you found the ones you thought proved your point. Here are the key words you skipped: "Participants reported three core reasons for estrangement: (i) abuse, (ii) poor parenting, and (iii) betrayal.

Third article: This is where you have your strongest argument as the #1 reason isn't abuse, it's parental toxicity.

"Parents reported that their primary reason for becoming estranged stemmed from their children’s objectionable relationships or sense of entitlement, whereas
adult children most frequently attributed their estrangement to their parents’ toxic behavior or feeling unsupported and unaccepted".

Now let's examine the data on page 4, snip attached. The data is broken down by type of conflict: intrafamily, intrapersonal, interpersonal, etc.

They listed the data in order of frequency, so the most popular reasons come first. Notice intrafamily issues are cited as the reason for estrangement by 46% of parents and 59% of children.

Then the authors broke the data down further, as in, what do "intrafamily issues" represent. And you know what the adult children say? Parental Toxicity at 22% of individuals and then abuse is second at 14% of individuals.

Parental toxicity as defined by the authors is "continuous situations of hurtfulness, anger, cruelty and perpetual disrespect"...which a lot of people would call emotional abuse, but let's stick with parental toxicity since that's what the data says.

So, let's amend my statement to "Most estranged children are victims of parental toxicity and abuse".

I know you wish you could write me off as some bitter unhinged idiot, but I'm really not. Denial is not a river in Egypt folks and wisdom isn't always a function of time.

One of the reasons I can be argumentative and confrontational is because I respect facts, data, and logic over people's opinions and feelings.

When the data says I'm wrong, I change my conclusion. When people say I'm wrong, I go look for credible data to support what I've said and if I find that I'm wrong, I change my statement.

Going forward I will say "Most estranged adult children estrange due to parental toxicity and abuse"...because that's what the data says. Thanks for helping me be more accurate.

The Hidden Voices survey personally invited 1,629 to participate and 807 took part. Common contributing factors "included emotional abuse, clashes of personality and values and mismatched expectations".

The second link refers to a qualitative survey with 26 participants and the 3 core reasons for estrangement were abuse, poor parenting and betrayal.

"Estrangement was generally triggered by a relatively minor incident or a more serious act of betrayal considered to have been enacted by the parent".

The third link states "adult children most frequently attributed their estrangement to their parents toxic behaviour or feeling unsupported and unaccepted".

Abuse is of course one reason for estrangement emotional, physical or a combination of the two but does not appear to be, from the links provided, the most common reason.

Personalty clashes, clashes of values and mismatched expectations can occur without abuse being a factor. Poor parenting may be due to the parenting being poor or perceived as being poor by the AC.

Feeling unsupported and unaccepted may have been due to parenting but could also be the AC's perception of their upbringing.

Madgran77, thank you for acknowledging that I provided credible sources for my statements as I expected that people would just ignore it and keep calling me wrong.

I appreciate being proven wrong in this instance and I agree that the hidden voices pdf is really well done and does a great job of breaking down types of estrangements and reasons people give.

Thankyou Mia Yes I have seen and read all of those resources previously. The Hidden Voices is a particularly interesting and accessible document.

I am interested to know the source of the information that Normandygirl provided as I think that would also be an interesting resource.

Note, I didn't say abuse was the ONLY reason, I said it's the MOST common reason cited

I have provided multiple sources, from experts in the field who have done research for years, so I'd also love sources.