Handling Duty/Obligation as the "estranger" ;

Direct Quote from the bbc article:

"Adult children in the UK, for example, most often mention emotional abuse as the cause of their estrangement from their parents."

More sources that are peer-reviewed researched scholarly articles, not just my opinion. The data is there.

www.standalone.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/HiddenVoices.FinalReport.pdf

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0312407X.2015.1004355

digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1066&context=commstudiespapers

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Some very sad stories of father's so traumatised from their war time experiences that they were unable to parent effectively.

Their long suffering wives who endured not just their abuse but the abuse of their children because they didn't know what to do and there was no one to help them.

Times were different then, never easy to take the children and leave even today but it must have been so much harder then.

So many reasons for estrangement as you say Normandygirl.

"most estranged children were abused children"

Normandy girl - *In fact the majority of estranged AC had perfectly happy loving childhoods and difficulties arise only when they become adults for a variety of reasons. The most common reasons given by AECs are ; Parental disapproval of their spouse or partner
Interfering in their life choices, careers, parenting styles etc
Religious differences
Ignored boundaries
Overbearing and undermining grandparenting
Parents having perceived favourites among siblings.
The list is long and varied so it is inaccurate to say that abuse is the main reason. By maintaining that inaccuracy you are strengthening the general outsiders view that no child would walk away from decent parents. This path is already hard enough to navigate without people falsely confirming their misunderstandings about the subject.*

Normandygirl that is really interesting, what is the source of that information please? I would like to read more about the list of causes etc that you give above.

Allsorts

Mia most estranged children are not abused children. So your thread should have said abused estranged children. However you choose to think that, meaning all of us with estranged children must have been abusers. Is tgst what radical acceptance is?

Allsorts, I can't tell if you're trolling me with this or not, so I'm going to assume you are genuinely confused and explain the difference between most and all.

If someone says, "Most of the towels in my house are Red", they are not saying ,"All of the towels in my house are Red" nor are they saying "All towels are Red".

If we apply that same logic to what I said, you will see that I did not say ALL estranged children were abused. I said MOST estranged children are abused children.

As you might know, there are often major disagreements between EPs and EACs on the cause of the estrangement. The #1 reason cited by EACs for estrangement is abuse while the #1 reason cited by EP's is external factors, like someone turning the child against them.

Here's an example of an article about this: www.bbc.com/future/article/20190328-family-estrangement-causes

There have been many studies carried out in various places on this issue and the results continue to show that there is a disconnect between what parents say cause estrangement and what children say.

However, as most estrangements between parents and children are initiated by the child and the parents are the ones who want to keep the relationship, denying the reasons given by the estranged children only serve to push them further away.

Finally, I think you just want to keep having a go at me, and I've decided I've had enough. None of the people who keep coming after my politeness/tone/attitude/seem to care about how and what you say to me because of that double standard I mentioned above, so I'll take steps to protect myself by no longer responding to the digs, and leaving you with the quote below.

"Healing begins with awareness, understanding, and action.” - Diane Metcalf

Yes, I think acceptance does come with aging. My father did eventually mellow. And he did (sort of) apologise.

We were never close but I know he loved me in his fashion, Insofar as he was capable of love and I know he was immensely proud of me.

I am now 71 and I too have mellowed. I am more tolerant of peoples flaws. I see the futility of harbouring grudges and resentment. Life is just too short.

MiaZadora81

*allsorts*, most estranged children are abused children, so no they aren't totally different things.

Contrary to what you keep saying, most estranged children were abused/neglected in some way and that's why they're estranged. Stop negating the experiences of others because you feel you were wronged by your own children.

It's telling that you are passing judgment about what I would choose to do with my own body over a man who abandoned me.

If you feel so upset about it, go find a person on the donor list that abandoned their child and then give them your kidney. I'll keep my bitter vengeful body parts to myself.

Unbelievable.

" most estranged children were abused children"

You are way off beam with that. In fact the majority of estranged AC had perfectly happy loving childhoods and difficulties arise only when they become adults for a variety of reasons. The most common reasons given by AECs are ; Parental disapproval of their spouse or partner
Interfering in their life choices, careers, parenting styles etc
Religious differences
Ignored boundaries
Overbearing and undermining grandparenting
Parents having perceived favourites among siblings.
The list is long and varied so it is inaccurate to say that abuse is the main reason. By maintaining that inaccuracy you are strengthening the general outsiders view that no child would walk away from decent parents. This path is already hard enough to navigate without people falsely confirming their misunderstandings about the subject.

MerylStreep, apologies for not acknowledging your post when I mentioned my friend’s experience. It was your post that made me think about her.

My parents generation were children in the backdrop of ww1 and grew into young adulthood during ww2. As Chewbacca says, there was no psychological support. The message was to get on with it. Inevitably, many of the men had experienced real horrors and terrors, the women who stayed at home many losses alongside greater independence.

Our generation grew up with that get on with it mantra. It’s not without positives but like any other mantra or coping mechanism can be wearing.
I wonder if ageing helps people to be more accepting, less certain

Iam64

One of my close friends has in recent years recognised that her father’s rages and occasional violent outbursts were the result of his time in the railways in Japanese prisoner of war camp. She feels relief that despite feeling angry with her mum for ‘tolerating’ these outbursts, she now recognised her mother had a greater understanding of the horrors he’d endured.
In her teens and early adult life she distanced but didn’t estrange. Later adult life led to a level of emotional reconciliation. Her children just loved their grandparents

I am 64. How sad. I worked with a man who had been a Japanese POW. He had been forced to work on the Burma railway. He died quite young, early 50s as a result of the Ill treatment he had endured.

So many wrecked lives.....

This is what many of the children of these poor wrecked men had to endure. To totally estrange them and abandon them would have been wrong, so many of us did what your friend did. We tried to be good daughters, so we didnt estrange them we distanced ourselves from them but kept the lines of communication open. We allowed our children to have a relationship with their grandparents.

I know some of you might feel that these men were abusive and deserve to be estranged but I beg to differ. Many of these ex military men were victims too.

I think that, for our parents generation, that was probably a common occurrence Iam64. Our parents rarely, if ever, spoke of what they'd experienced during the war years and the psychological trauma that ensued. No therapy or counselling available and so a whole generation had to grow up dealing with the aftermath. Tragic for everyone.

MerylStreep

DSL
I was in my 30s before I knew/ understood where my fathers violent abusive rages came from.
I learnt that he was 19, a signalman on the Russian convoys. Life expectancy: 4 days.
Unlike you, there was no contact ( bar 2 weddings ) after I left home at 18.
I bear no grudge. He’s just someone I knew.

Meyl. Sorry I didn't respond to your post, I can well guess at how your father might have been.

Like most people of my generation my father also served jn WW2. There is no doubt in mind he suffered from PTSD - he had nightmares for years from which he would wake up screaming,

Add to that he also suffered from Narcissitic Personality Disorder and you have a heady cocktail of mental instability.

The rages were terrifying, they seemed to come from nowhere, one minute he was sweetness and light and then like a flick of a switch he would descend into a violent rage,

Like most narcissists he was grandiose and considered himself to be superior to everyone else. He was also vain and shallow, jealous and resentful of others.

Perhaps if his PTSD had been recognised and treated he might have found some peace but obviously PTSD wasnt really understood back then.

He was a deeply unhappy man, more to be pitied than hated.

Mia most estranged children are not abused children. So your thread should have said abused estranged children. However you choose to think that, meaning all of us with estranged children must have been abusers. Is tgst what radical acceptance is?

VioletSky

I have so much I want to say and so many problems I would point out in discussion where some feel free to say unkind things and bring animosity across threads because their own hurt matters more apparently and their own behaviour somehow justified

But it's just pointless.

*goes away

It is pointless and I'm sorry you're often the voice of reason that gets ignored. I've ignored your advice, as you know, lol so I'm not saying I'm perfect here, but I've seen you try to get people to understand what's going on many times and I respect you so much for continuing to try.

There's a huge double standard here for what kind of behavior is kind and who is being difficult and lots of things get glossed over and justified because of that double standard.

I'm just so grateful and happy for the people in real life who got away. If they ever stumble upon some of these threads, they will pat themselves on the back for getting away from these people, I just hope they don't waste a second feeling guilty over people who don't deserve it.

I'm not trying to get anyone into my life that doesn't want to be there, yet people who are in that situation are telling me how bitter and awful I am and that I need to behave more like they do.

The Irony...

One of my close friends has in recent years recognised that her father’s rages and occasional violent outbursts were the result of his time in the railways in Japanese prisoner of war camp. She feels relief that despite feeling angry with her mum for ‘tolerating’ these outbursts, she now recognised her mother had a greater understanding of the horrors he’d endured.
In her teens and early adult life she distanced but didn’t estrange. Later adult life led to a level of emotional reconciliation. Her children just loved their grandparents

Only one of the reasons Mia. And not the principal reason, not by a long shot.

The principal reason was for me, for my sake. My well being. I wanted to rest easy with a clear conscience. I wanted to look in the mirror and like what I saw. I wanted to fulfil my duties and obligations, I wanted to be a good daughter. I wanted to be the bigger, better person. I wanted to be kind to a man who couldn't help what he was.

My choices. Obviously my solution to my problem won't suit everyone but it worked and still works for me. No regrets.

Because of my choice my children had grandparents in their lives. If I had estranged my father then they wouldn't have had them. They would have missed out.

Radical Acceptance is a new term for me but I definitely relate to it as a constructive coping mechanism. I believe many of us find our own way out of the maze. It isn’t about being perfect, being good it’s about finding a way forward that works for us

Iam64. Thanks. I took it on the chin.......I see no shame in wanting to be a good daughter.

As I said, quite apart from wanting to be there for my mother and sister, I also found it liberating to know that I did what I felt was right, that I was happy in my own skin, that I could sleep at night with a clear conscience.

Then I was able to put the past behind me and go on to build myself a fabulous life, free from anger, bitterness, hate. Instead I filled my life with joy, love, fun and laughter. Yes I made a few mistakes along the way. Married a good man but the wrong man when I was 19 and then married the love of my life when I was 31.

It is only in recent years thst I have become familiar with the term "Radical Acceptance". When that is what I had actually been practising for years without realising it. Here's the definition.

"Radical Acceptance is when you stop fighting reality, stop responding with impulsive and destructive behaviours when things aren't going the way you want them to and you let go of the bitterness that may be keeping you in a cycle of suffering".

I hadn't a clue that I had inadvertently stumbled onto a clinically accepted coping strategy. I just sort of found my own way out of the maze.

I am no saint, no Miss Goody Two Shoes I just didnt feel estrangement was appropriate for me. I wanted to have a connection with my family, even my father. He wasn't a bad man, just a seriously flawed one.

"I was disappointed to see Derbyshire’s decision to ‘learn how to handle’ her abusive father, re-framed ‘it sounds like it was really important for you to be a good daughter, whatever that means to you, so maybe that’s why you decided to handle him, rather than leaving’. MiaZadora, dismissing Derbyshire in this way could be experienced by others as hurtful and patronising, to say the least. " - Iam64

I wasn't being dismissive, hurtful or patronizing. When I responded to her post, she hadn't said that she chose to handle her father so she wouldn't be estranged from her mother and her younger sister, she said that later.

So when I wrote that, I was offering a possible reason for why she chose to handle her father instead of walking away. If you read the post, she's the one who said she has a clear conscience because she was a good daughter.

I posted at the beginning of my response to DSL that I was not being critical of DSL, I was commenting on the "walk away vs learn to handle it" discussion.

Go back and read the entirety of the post.

allsorts, most estranged children are abused children, so no they aren't totally different things.

Contrary to what you keep saying, most estranged children were abused/neglected in some way and that's why they're estranged. Stop negating the experiences of others because you feel you were wronged by your own children.

It's telling that you are passing judgment about what I would choose to do with my own body over a man who abandoned me.

If you feel so upset about it, go find a person on the donor list that abandoned their child and then give them your kidney. I'll keep my bitter vengeful body parts to myself.

Unbelievable.

I have so much I want to say and so many problems I would point out in discussion where some feel free to say unkind things and bring animosity across threads because their own hurt matters more apparently and their own behaviour somehow justified

But it's just pointless.

*goes away

The question started by asking how estranges feel about their decision. Most people who chose to estrange parents seemed to feel liberated. The focus has been on adult children who estranged parental figures. It’s good to see the decision to estrange has been positive for many.

I was disappointed to see Derbyshire’s decision to ‘learn how to handle’ her abusive father, re-framed ‘it sounds like it was really important for you to be a good daughter, whatever that means to you, so maybe that’s why you decided to handle him, rather than leaving’.
MiaZadora, dismissing Derbyshire in this way could be experienced by others as hurtful and patronising, to say the least. You aren’t the only poster with extensive experience of estrangement and working with children who experienced significant abuse. Understanding our own unfinished emotional business, strengthening our boundaries helps us not to exacerbate the pain of others.

Lots of people wouldn't donate a kidney, it is much more risky to the donor.

I wouldn't let my children give me one.

We don't owe abusers our time so we don't owe them our bodies.

I would say no too. My children need me

Allsorts

Mia, you asked for an estranged child’s perspective, not an abused child's perspective. Totally different. Then you glibly ask for our favourite ice cream. Then the statement “if your father needed a kidney transplant, you would get tested and if suitable would then refuse him” . Also other such comments. I don’t know who your therapist is but it is concerning. Indifference is not caring, vengeance and bitterness is the opposite.

Gosh I missed the kidney remark. WOW.

Mia, you asked for an estranged child’s perspective, not an abused child's perspective. Totally different. Then you glibly ask for our favourite ice cream. Then the statement “if your father needed a kidney transplant, you would get tested and if suitable would then refuse him” . Also other such comments. I don’t know who your therapist is but it is concerning. Indifference is not caring, vengeance and bitterness is the opposite.

Well you certainly are argumentative and confrontational. I wont argue with that. ?.

If I had wrongly assumed you were hurt and angry then I apologise. You certainly have good reason to be.