Handling Duty/Obligation as the "estranger" ;

Meryl. My abuser was just someone I knew too, despite being a family member. I have no idea why he did what he did.

What you know about your father is sad but there are no excuses (I know you're not excusing him of course) and there never will be.

Learning to handle your father was a valuable lesson DSL as it gave you the experience to deal with your current situation, and so far has enabled you to avoid being estranged and long may that continue.

Lol

To be fair, I'm not that good at butting out anyway

VioletSky, make no mistake, I genuinely and truly appreciate your input and advice, and if there's one person here I'd choose to listen to above all others, its you. Please don't butt too far out lol

Of course, butting out

"Mia. Don't get upset again."

People keep assuming that I'm full of anger when I'm not. Stop assigning negative emotions to me because I choose to be direct.

People here like to talk in a flowery, emotive way and I don't, but that doesn't mean I'm angry. I have degrees in astrophysics and accounting, I'm very analytical and data-driven.

Sometimes I'm confrontational and argumentative, but not because my temper gets away from me. I'm actually very good at managing my own emotions and adjusting to my audience, so please stop assuming that you need to teach me how to manage my emotions. Direct that at some of the other people here who let their emotions get so out of control that they don't even read what's being written and keep responding to different situations in the same way.

I called out DiamondLily for starting up on the "AC's are terrible" bscause this isn't the thread for that conversation and now "mia is full of anger".

No, Mia wants to have a different conversation than the normal one that happens around here.

Violetsky, I understand what you're saying and I think your advice is sound. They really should appreciate your level-headedness more and perhaps eventually they will.

I think you and I have different goals/purposes when it comes to this place, which is why although I think your advice is sound, I'm not always going to follow it.

When we remove ourselves as scapegoats and emotional punchbag, suddenly abusers become very very obvious to others around them

I am certain of this

Emotional abuse is starting to be taken very seriously here.

One day patents who emotionally abuse their children will get the prison sentence they deserve. No one will expect forgiveness to be given.

I've watched other tyoes of abuser go to prison 20 years after the crime.

It will happen.

As for forgiveness, forgiving my mother just led to more abuse. I stopped forgiving her.

Acceptance and even understanding she can have...from a distance. I wish her no harm. I just don't live or like her and I no longer feel guilty.

Why should I?

Why should I feel guilty She couldn't keep her scapegoat and emotional punchbag.

No way I will enable that behaviour..

So realistically, I am helping her be a better person lol

Mia. I decided to learn how to handle my father because estranging him would have meant I would also lose my mother and my sister who was just a child at the time.

By keeping in contact I was able to monitor my sister and ensure that she was not beaten or abused the way I was. In fact on one occasion when he threatened to beat her I stood up to him.

He was 6ft and a big strong athletic man, an ex soldier. I am 5ft 7" and was wearing 3 inch heels. I drew.myself up to my full height so that we were both at the same eye level. I spoke quietly. I told him if he lifted a finger against her I would be reporting him to social service and the police. He caved.

If I had of estranged him I would not have been able to protect her or my mum,

violetsky, i told you i clap when you post sometimes, you just got a full clap and I earned a glare from my my sleeping cats lolol.

There is nothing wrong with estranging an abusive person, it still shocks me to see people say otherwise.

1000 times yes yes yes!

We have got to stop teaching people that abuse is okay, as long as it's from family.

I taught for 9.5 years and people think I'm exaggerating when I talk about the things I've seen people do to their children. I've had kids ask me to be their foster mom or to adopt them because of what they go through at home.

I had 2 twin brothers in my class once and both of them had behavioral/developmental problems. Their mother got pregnant with a new set of twins and dumped the brothers with her family member as she felt "god gave me a second chance with these new babies". The brothers ended up in foster care and somehow, this woman was allowed to keep the new babies.

If someone told those brothers that their mother doesn't deserve estrangement, and I was near, things would get ugly very quickly. She owes them everything and they owe her absolutely nothing. My only hope is that she doesn't destroy the new twins, they're probably 4 or 5 by now and I think about all 4 kids often.

I also had a student who was in a group home because he was sexually abused by his father starting when he was a toddler. When he turned 12, he started touching his youngers siblings, so the parents called the police and they took the brother to juvenile hall and then he ended up in a group home. No one gets to say that child owes his parents anything and the rest of those children are going through who knows what as well.

Though I've described criminal behavior, I've seen other forms of abuse that "weren't that bad and were for their own good". I had a student try to kill herself after her mother berated her in front of me for getting a B on an advanced physics test. Getting a B meant she wouldn't go to medical school and would ruin the family!! I heard teachers saying poor girl, what's wrong with her that she would attempt suicide when her mother just wants the best for her?? WHAT?? At least six of my former students have died by suicide, and it breaks my heart that kids go through so much at the hands of people who should love them.

People who estrange their abusers deserve 0 shame, and 100% support/courage and just because its not criminal behavior, doesn't mean it's not abusive and damaging.

MiaZadora

My advice to you again is to let others speak for themselves.

Threads get lost if arguments happen.

Let what people say stand as testament.

DSL
I was in my 30s before I knew/ understood where my fathers violent abusive rages came from.
I learnt that he was 19, a signalman on the Russian convoys. Life expectancy: 4 days.
Unlike you, there was no contact ( bar 2 weddings ) after I left home at 18.
I bear no grudge. He’s just someone I knew.

Mia. Don't get upset again.

You asked for the "estranger" perspective. Most posters ARE answering you. They are explaining why they estranged someone or, in my case, explaining why I didn't estrange my father, despite all I endured at his hands. Some are explaining why they are so opposed to estrangement,whatever form it takes.

I don't think it's a case of "taking over" your thread but rather trying to add to the debate by sharing their stories and viewpoints.

Maybe just skim over the bits that you find irrelevant to your circumstances. If certain posters really get under your skin then perhaps there is an ignore function on this site. I am not very computer savvy - perhaps someone could advise you on that.

As far as I am aware you are not unwelcome on the other estrangement thread. It welcomes all comers. If people have been shirt with you it is because some of your posts have been a tad aggressive.

You are angry and with good reason, You've had a rough deal and a poor start in life. It's not surprising the pain you feel bubbles up into rage. But asking for peoples thoughts and then trashing them because you don't like what they are thinking or saying isn't very productive is it.

There's a wise saying.....lose your temper, lose the argument. Try and listen to what people are trying to say. Don't just fly off the handle, letting your temper run away with you, it achieves nothing.

I don't always like what I read or the advice I'm given and I certainly don't like criticism even if it's well meant. I too can be over sensitive at times. Can't we all. But we all have to learn to tame our inner toddler and at least listen to what others are trying to teach us.

We can all learn from each other. That's what these threads are for, that is their strength,

Normandygirl,

Yes, I definitely think there's a greater pressure for people in my situation, although I don't consider myself under that pressure anymore.

My own father is still alive, I think, and I've signed up for the bone marrow donor registry in the U.S. He is the only person I will not donate to. I give blood on a regular basis, I volunteer, I give to charity, and I would give my bone marrow to a stranger, but never ever to him.

In fact, if he needed a kidney or something, I would agree to get tested and if we matched, I'd celebrate and give my kidney to someone else. Maybe that stranger is also a bad person, I have no idea, but I'm not going to risk my life for someone I know is a bad person. I'd rather take a chance on a stranger.

There is nothing wrong with estranging an abusive person, it still shocks me to see people say otherwise.

Estranging for me has meant no anti depressants or anxiety medication for the first time in my adult life. At one point I tried to commit suicide. I have heard if other adult children and grandchildren driven to serious mental health consequences.

I think if anyone would judge another for estranging, whether the estranged is an adult child, parent, sibling or other family member, then that genuinely isn't a healthy point of view.

People make the right decisions for them and those who were able to stay in contact with an abusive person, then you have my respect...

But those who estranged so that they could be happy and healthy for their own children and the people who do value them, that was the right thing to do.

Always

DSL, thank you for sharing your story, I appreciate it!

To be clear, I am not criticizing you DSL, your situation shows that you are strong and resilient and your dad didn't deserve the kindness you showed him. I'm commenting on the general notion of "deal with them" vs "walk away"

You said, I didn't need to estrange, Instead I learned how to handle him.

This is really interesting to me because one of my cousins told me that I just needed to learn how to deal with my aunt instead of walking away.

It sounds like it was really important for you to be a good daughter, whatever that means to you, so maybe that's why you decided to handle him rather than leaving?

I don't have a desire to be a "good niece". I'm focused on being a good person, so I walk away from people I think are bad people, no matter what the relationship is...and the result is that I don't have anyone in my life who needs to be "handled". People in my life are here because I want them to be and vice versa.

I feel like if we replaced the word "parent" with "friend/spouse" when we're describing abusive relationships, most people would not say "learn to handle it", they say, you chose him/her, leave!

But if it's someone you didn't choose, a parent/child/sibling, the conversation changes and apparently abuse is supposed to be tolerated. I think that narrative needs to change because it's bad to teach people, especially women, that it's their job to manage other people's emotions and bad behavior.

it's about being comfortable in your own skin, knowing you've been the best person you can be, being able to sleep at night and having peace of mind absolutely DSL and you're absolutely right when you say There's no feeling like it.

MiaZadora81

From my perspective, the discussion on estrangement tends to center on who's to blame or who is at fault, but I'm interested in what people who think of themselves as the "estranger" are experiencing in terms of duty/obligation/guilt over those who you've estranged.

In my case, I'm estranged from my aunt but she has two bio daughters who are in her life. One of my cousins thinks that I'm shirking my duty, and that I have an obligation to help my aunt because she helped raise me. The other one doesn't see it that way because I'm not my aunt's biological child.

In my opinion, no one asks to be born, therefore kids don't inherently owe their parents anything because it's not like they agreed to be born in exchange for taking care of their parents later, but I'm aware that varies from culture to culture.

"Estrangers", what are your experiences/thoughts with this? Do you struggle with any feelings of guilt and how do you handle it?

Also, just for fun, what's your favorite ice cream flavor? Mine is cake batter flavor

A very interesting topic Mia. Do you think that there is a greater pressure on people like yourself to " give back" because the person who brought you up wasn't obligated to do so, unlike a birth parent, and therefore in some peoples eyes the obligation on you is greater?
My own father was a very violent man and beat me regularly, even breaking my bones on a couple occasions. When he was diagnosed with liver cancer in his later years, I still felt " duty bound" to care for him as no one else was prepared to. I wasn't pressured by others, in fact most people said I was mad and I should leave him to rot. I was glad that I did it though because it gave me closure and proved to myself that his treatment of me hadn't stopped me being the person I wanted to be, I felt stronger for doing it.

It's an Interesting dilemna. Here's my take,

Despite his treatment of me I could not and would not ever have abandoned my father. He couldn't help what he was. He had a serious character flaw which made him a deeply unhappy man. Bitter, angry, jealous and resentful of everyone he thought was enjoying a better life than him.

I don't wish to sound smug but I did my best for him. But I was determined not to let him shape my character or influence my life choices. I was determined to have better relationships than he did, be a better parent, be happier and more successful.

The truth is not one of us is perfect. There are no perfect parents, no perfect children, we all have flaws. It's how we overcome our weaknesses and correct those flaws that counts.

Maya Angelou said. You can forget what was said to you, you can forget what was done to you but you can never forget the way you were made to feel. I think this is probably true. But you can chose how your respond to those feelings - you can let them destroy you or you can resolve to overcome them.

Anger, bitterness, and hatred will eat you alive. You have to let it go or it will ruin any chance of happiness, serenity or contentment. These negative feelings and emotions will make you suspicious, narrow minded and will close your heart to all the good things this world has to offer.

Ernest Hemingway said "the world is still a mighty fine place". It's true, it's better than fine, it's full of beauty and magic. And it's also full of wonderful kind people who will love, cherish and support you if you let them in.

Yes there are some bad apples out there but the good far outweigh the bad.

No matter how badly you were treated bearing a grudge will get you nowhere. It will hurt you far more than it will hurt the person who wronged you. They couldn't give a toss about you so why waste your time and energy hating them, They aren't wasting their lives thinking about you so why give them headspace.

There's no need to estrange anyone. By all means set your boundaries, maintain some distance if you have to but fulfill your obligations and duties so that you can then get on with your life.

You can then change your stars and make your dreams come true with a clear conscience, safe in the knowledge that you did your best. Always do the right thing and then no one can have to cause to reproach you.

It's not about being little Miss Goody Two Shoes, it's about being comfortable in your own skin, knowing you've been the best person you can be, being able to sleep at night and having peace of mind.

There's no feeling like it.

*"Yes, there is no accounting for the way some of these ACs behave.
Reverting to being tantrum throwing toddlers when they don't get their own way.?- Diamond Lily*

I was told I should make my own thread as I am unwelcome on other threads, so I did, and now I see that the people who told me this are over here now. I can't control who comes here and I don't care to, but respect the purpose of the thread.

I asked for "the estranger" perspective and the thread has already turned into "the estranged" making snide comments on the terrible AC's.

There are enough threads harping on the terrible AC's, this isn't the place for that.

I think abusive people like to pass you their guilt to carry...

It belongs to them

It is OK to put it down

I didn't know it was a legal duty in some states... that is heartbreaking for the children of abusive parents.

My children owe me absolutely nothing as I chose family life. I've already begun the process of setting them free to their own lives, choices and mistakes as adults.

They haven't gone far away but even if they do, it will just be a different relationship.

Good parents are red bull, they give you wings lol

Good for you.

Smileless2012

It's interesting isn't it DiamondLily as duty/obligation works both ways. It may be an EAC feeling obliged to care for/do things for the parent they've estranged out of a sense of duty, or the EP feeling the same way toward the AC who's estranged them.

Well, we have supported both sides of the family, financially and emotionally, but I don't do threats, I don't do "pay me or I won't talk to you" and I don't do adult tantrums.?

It's interesting isn't it DiamondLily as duty/obligation works both ways. It may be an EAC feeling obliged to care for/do things for the parent they've estranged out of a sense of duty, or the EP feeling the same way toward the AC who's estranged them.

From just my point of view, I couldn’t let any of my close family struggle. I was not estranged from my family, we all got along and made allowances, people won’t these days. However, if I had been estranged, I couldn’t imagine it as mine were good parents. I would have had to make sure they were being looked after, especially my mom and dad, I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for them, so apart from love I had for them, morally I couldn’t abandon and drift off because they became difficult. I owe them. I expect nothing from mine, especially my d whom I am estranged from, her decision not mine, I haven’t estranged her, she will always be my daughter. . My son is like me, he would check in and make sure I was cared for.