Do abusive people know they are abusive?

I have never seen it stated that walking away from a familial relationship without an explanation or trying to make it work when there's been abuse, was wrong. It's when there's been no abuse that doing so seems wrong.

Not all victims of abuse become abusers and not all abusers were once victims.

For someone who doesn't normally stray on to these forums Doodledog that was a particularly insightful and erudite post! Some very relevant and well articulated points made there.

I wouldn't doubt for one minute that in the case of estrangement, at least one "side" (for want of a better word) has tried and tried before giving up contact.

@sandelf

Good point!

Some do some don't - the difference between the bad and the mad.

People with personality disorders can be helped but they have to be able to recognise that they need help first.

I tried to get my mother to seek help with me.. she laughed in my face

I am so glad I went and got that help for myself and I still use it when necessary but this is a question that still goes unanswered..

Maybe because someone with npd as an example will usually avoid seeking help so hasn't given much information to the medical community

Although I do follow a diagnosed narcissist and his views are fascinating but my mother doesn't have any kind of diagnosis... all the proof there is are my symptoms I have had to deal with

The man I follow also never became an abuser, having sought help early, perhaps once you start down the abusive road there is no going back

Stiller

@DiamondLily
Agreed! 100%. It is why I am guilt free in estranging my mother. Our marriage was suffering because of the stress, which means my son’s future was on the verge of being impacted. My mum will drone on and on about how wrong we are, how my wife isolated and turned me against my family, how she is waiting to pick up the pieces when my marriage fails. But in her heart she knows her behavior backed us into a corner and forced us to choose a happy nuclear unit over my mum and her view of what her role in our lives should have looked like. I suppose in her head, if she keeps telling the same lies year after year, they will become true. Who knows? I accept her persistent non-apology over the last decade for the schism she caused as her refusal to accept her abusive behavior toward my wife. I accept that she doesn’t view her manipulation and divide and conquer tactics with me as a form of psychological abuse of my adult self. I am at peace with her perspective. But every once in a while a relative or family friend will let it slip how bitter she still is about it. An example would be disinheritance. Apparently after all these years she needed the message to get back to me that my family will not be included in her and dad’s will. We never expected or wanted to be included. I’ve done quite well for myself and wouldn’t accept the money even if I hadn’t. But it just goes to show, she doesn’t view or accept how unloving and unkind her actions were. But oh well! We’re doing great on my side of life! Unfortunately, my sister in law is pregnant now, and wants to keep my mum at a distance both physically and emotionally. She will not see the fact that multiple DIL’s see her behavior as repulsive. In her head, she is not the common denominator. The women in her sons’ lives are just trying to steal her boys away. Perspective is interesting, isn’t it?

From what you have posted, you mother sounds a lot like my ex MIL - I estranged her in 1982, for the sake of my kids, and never looked back. She died last year.

I made the decision, never gave it much more thought, and everyone was happier.?

Of course, your wife and children should come first, in the circumstances you describe.

I'm a granny of 5, (now adult), and I'd never behave like that,

Some EPs are nightmare, some ACs are.

That's life.?

MissAdventure

I suppose it would be as well to ask if it matters whether they're aware or not.
If someone has crossed the line and is abusive, then why waste time trying to untangle their heads?

Because when the abuser is a close relative, like a parent, we naturally look for answers as to why someone who would claim to love would engage in behavior that is hurtful or harming us. It’s human nature. It’s interesting because some would claim it’s terrible to walk away from familial ties without “trying” or without “explaining why” but then it seems other times it’s okay to not understand and try to understand their perspective.

I tend to think their brains are crammed full of havoc, so they can't help but behave how they do.
Perhaps due to their own upbringing, perhaps due to years of others being careful not to upset them, perhaps just out of spite.
Who knows? Not even them.

Well put MissA, why indeed.

The problem is that some abusers think that they are the victims, so, in their heads, they are not abusers.

Others deliberately abuse, knowing full well what they are doing, whether in real life, or when they are net trolls. They gain some sort of weird satisfaction from upsetting or hurting others.?

Either way, they are best avoided if possible. They usually create havoc.?

Good post Doodledog and I agree that if there's a personality disorder they may not know that they're being abusive but not sure that would also mean them being unaware of the pain and suffering they're inflicting on others.

They may not see themselves as abusive but can see the affect their behaviour is having on others and simply don't care.

MissAdventure

I suppose it would be as well to ask if it matters whether they're aware or not.
If someone has crossed the line and is abusive, then why waste time trying to untangle their heads?

That's the conclusion I came to, MissA. It was exhausting to be around the people I mentioned, and I did feel a huge sense of relief when I didn't have to do it any more.

The people they hurt were hurt regardless of whether it was deliberate or not, and I include myself in that. Disorder or no disorder, people like that are best avoided, but they can be very plausible at first.

@DiamondLily
Agreed! 100%. It is why I am guilt free in estranging my mother. Our marriage was suffering because of the stress, which means my son’s future was on the verge of being impacted. My mum will drone on and on about how wrong we are, how my wife isolated and turned me against my family, how she is waiting to pick up the pieces when my marriage fails. But in her heart she knows her behavior backed us into a corner and forced us to choose a happy nuclear unit over my mum and her view of what her role in our lives should have looked like. I suppose in her head, if she keeps telling the same lies year after year, they will become true. Who knows? I accept her persistent non-apology over the last decade for the schism she caused as her refusal to accept her abusive behavior toward my wife. I accept that she doesn’t view her manipulation and divide and conquer tactics with me as a form of psychological abuse of my adult self. I am at peace with her perspective. But every once in a while a relative or family friend will let it slip how bitter she still is about it. An example would be disinheritance. Apparently after all these years she needed the message to get back to me that my family will not be included in her and dad’s will. We never expected or wanted to be included. I’ve done quite well for myself and wouldn’t accept the money even if I hadn’t. But it just goes to show, she doesn’t view or accept how unloving and unkind her actions were. But oh well! We’re doing great on my side of life! Unfortunately, my sister in law is pregnant now, and wants to keep my mum at a distance both physically and emotionally. She will not see the fact that multiple DIL’s see her behavior as repulsive. In her head, she is not the common denominator. The women in her sons’ lives are just trying to steal her boys away. Perspective is interesting, isn’t it?

I feel ready to take away her remaining headspace

Recently I realised the hope was gone the she could ever change.

The other day I read:

"It's dangerous and dismissive to assume that because we talk about our stories, we still exist inside them"

And it really made me think, what is left? What more can I let go of?

This question was the last thing puzzling me.

That is actually an example of the love and empathy I still have for her as my mother...

That's what needs to go

I suppose it would be as well to ask if it matters whether they're aware or not.
If someone has crossed the line and is abusive, then why waste time trying to untangle their heads?

Doodledog

I've just realised that this is in the Estrangement forum, so sorry if it's not relevant.

All the same, everything in Smileless's post fits perfectly with the people I referred to in mine.

I've just realised that this is in the Estrangement forum, so sorry if it's not relevant.

In my experience abusive people do know they're being abusive which doesn't preclude them from also believing that they're right and their actions are justified.

It's the combination of the two that enables them to persuade others to join in, defend them and in some cases convince their partner to estrange part or all of that person's family.

This of course is from my perspective and not having been raised by abusive parent(s) and in an abusive home. I was abused but my experience of abuse was outside of the home.

They know, which is why they hide it and when confronted deny any and all accusations despite the weight of evidence to the contrary.

They re write history to suit the narrative they wish to promote and in some cases, the history they themselves feel more comfortable with.

They twist the words of others and/or the motivation behind what someone has said or done so they can portray themselves as the victim when in reality, they are the perpetrator.

Not all abusers gaslight. In my experience it depends on the nature of the abuse and again in my experience, happens more in and abusive 'relationship' outside of the family or a close personal one.

Do abusers believe their victim deserves to be abused? I think to answer that we would have to know who the abuser is ie close relative or a 3rd party for example a partner in an adult relationship. What their definition of deserve means and the nature of the abuse.

IMO they don't care whether the abuse is deserved or not. That's not why they abuse. They abuse because they can and for some reason that is unfathomable, seem to enjoy it.

I think that some abusers are well aware of what they are doing, but those with personality disorders may not.

Looking at the behaviour of people with what appears to be NPD, they appear to be working to a script - not just the love-bomb, devalue, discard thing, but also the gaslighting, passive-aggression and DARVO tactics they employ towards their victims. It couldn't be more similar if they went to weekly meetings to discuss their victims and compare tactics.

I have known two people like this in 'real life' (and several online!) and I don't think either of them did it consciously. One was a colleague and the other a 'friend', and although they had very different 'styles', both left a trail of disaster in their wake.

They both seemed genuinely to believe that the number of 'crazy' exes they had was down to bad luck, though, and seemed genuinely upset when yet another relationship broke up, even though it came as no surprise to even casual observers of their behaviour towards their partners. They also felt that people were victimising them when they were challenged, or didn't get their own way, and didn't stop to think that it was just a difference of opinion, or that the other party had as much right as they did to do things how they preferred. They were incapable of seeing that they were the common denominator in all of this, so were miserable a lot of the time. It would have been easier for them if they could have taken responsibility for their actions and tried to do something about their behaviour, but I think that's a big part of the disorder - they just can't do that.

I felt a bit sorry for them, as I assume that it was a pattern of behaviour they learnt from parents, but both were utterly poisonous and I am very pleased that neither has in my life for a long time.

VioletSky

Good thoughts Diamondlily

I have felt for a long time that full healing is achieved by absolutely understanding my mother and her motivations for all the cruel things she said and did.

I'm pretty happy with most aspects of my life, but finding more happy is never a bad thing

No, well, I've never given my mother more headspace than necessary.

I don't need to understand her, it's past, she was what she was, and it's old history now.

I just get on with the here and now - that's problematic enough at times, without reliving the past.

I can't change the past, but I can look to the future. ?

Well, two people can have different views on what's what, and who was trying to do what. As you say, recollections may vary.

A true deliberate abuser wouldn't really care. They might or might not know, but they don't care either way.

If anyone feels, in the general sense, (applying to anybody) that they are being abused, deliberate or not, the best thing is to avoid that person, and get on with a happy life.

That way, they are not affecting <your> future.

Stiller

My mother bullied my wife. I would say that is a form of abuse. But my mum would claim she was only trying to “help” and be “involved”. So yes, “recollections may vary”and therefore some abusive people will not perceive their behavior as such. But the perception of the person on the receiving end of the behavior is all that matters. If there is a question as to whether or not certain behavior is abusive, a decent human would refrain from engaging in said behavior.

True

Good thoughts Diamondlily

I have felt for a long time that full healing is achieved by absolutely understanding my mother and her motivations for all the cruel things she said and did.

I'm pretty happy with most aspects of my life, but finding more happy is never a bad thing

My mother bullied my wife. I would say that is a form of abuse. But my mum would claim she was only trying to “help” and be “involved”. So yes, “recollections may vary”and therefore some abusive people will not perceive their behavior as such. But the perception of the person on the receiving end of the behavior is all that matters. If there is a question as to whether or not certain behavior is abusive, a decent human would refrain from engaging in said behavior.