Do abusive people know they are abusive?

it is a nice idea to think they are wrong. do dictators know they are wrong? is it mental illness, are they bad,mad? one thing they is leave a scar in people's lives. the majority of folk with mental issues have had a damaging childhood with a control freak at the helm.What can be done about them, very little unfortunately.

They re write history to suit the narrative they wish to promote and in some cases, the history they themselves feel more comfortable with.

Yes, this seems to be something that happens a lot in my family through the generations and I haven't worked out whether it is because each generation grows up with it so thinks it is perfectly normal or whether there is a genetic link.

People with personality disorders can be helped but they have to be able to recognise that they need help first.

My daughter has been diagnosed and has taken in on board. She is medicated which helps but it would take a lot of therapy to really change her outlook. Although she knows she sees the world from a very different perspective she finds it difficult to admit that it might be her thinking that is skewed rather than somebody else's. I have tried to encourage her to see that I always act from a place of love but she has such low self esteem that she finds that difficult to believe. Unbelievably sad but sometimes very difficult to live with.

The person I knew had periods of extreme self loathing.

I grew up with a Narcissist and although I am reassured that I wasn't the same, I did grow up with learned behaviours. However, I knew that my behaviours were wrong so I did have a lot of self loathing. The trouble was, I didn't have a voice because of my upbringing so manipulation was the only thing I had. It took a lot of effort to stop that and just voice my needs. The more I learned, the more I realised just how wrong my parent was. The difference between her and me is that she just can't see that what she does is wrong so she will never change. I haven't estranged her because I realise she was brought up in the same sort of environment and did not get the chances I had to work it out until it was too ingrained.

They were incapable of seeing that they were the common denominator in all of this, so were miserable a lot of the time. It would have been easier for them if they could have taken responsibility for their actions and tried to do something about their behaviour, but I think that's a big part of the disorder - they just can't do that.

This is so true. My sister cannot see that her behaviour causes her to be abandoned. Her fear of abandonment makes her behaviour worse so people walk away. She will tell you of all the abuse she has suffered whilst abusing all those who were closest to her. The mildest hint that her behaviour might need some inner reflection just causes damage to all concerned. Therapy makes it worse because the account of the abuse she has suffered is so badly skewed and history rewritten so the Therapist is working with wrong information.

And I wonder if there's been any research on why this is? Are some people "magnets" (for want of a better way of putting it) for attracting certain behaviours from others; whether that's physical, mental or emotional?

If you've learned as a child that these behaviours are 'normal' you don't see the red flags. The more you associate with people who are abusers, the more normal it seems.

It's a bit like putting your hand in a fire, and pondering whether a lighter or matched caused it, while you sit there being burnt.
Just take your hand out.

What an absolutely brilliant analogy.

For the most part, I don't think abusers can see they are abusive because they have a more than healthy sense of being "right" and "justified".

Jennyluck

I think a lot of abusers are inadequate in some way, so need to control their partner. They’re frightened of loosing them, so ostracise them from friends and family. As the friends and family can see straight through them.
Not sure about mothers who bully, that must be a control thing as well. Not liking the dil is classic. Being worried about loosing their sons. But they must justify their behaviour in their own minds.
Interesting post.

Absolutely the justification is there in their minds. Things like “I am just trying to keep the family together”, when knowing the requests are excessive.

“She’s pulling my boy away” when really they are simply living their life together like a couple should.

“I’ll just wait to pick up the pieces when she leaves you or you've had enough”.—the ultimate red flag of enmeshment. The fantasy of the adult son/daughter packing up the children and moving back for “mum” to return to her place as Queen Bee.

Phrases that on the surface seem to be coming from a hurt parent but are excuses for controlling, inappropriate behavior.

I think a lot of abusers are inadequate in some way, so need to control their partner. They’re frightened of loosing them, so ostracise them from friends and family. As the friends and family can see straight through them.
Not sure about mothers who bully, that must be a control thing as well. Not liking the dil is classic. Being worried about loosing their sons. But they must justify their behaviour in their own minds.
Interesting post.

SparklyGrandma

I think some do, some can’t reflect on themselves. I worked with abused teenagers in my 20’s and 30’s - some of the abuse they faced, felt like their abuser enjoyed and planned it.

Some people are cruel, some enjoy it but the effects seem to be the same and lifelong either way.

Also, manipulative relatives with NPD can’t ‘feel’ properly, so don’t feel shame or guilt the way us ordinary folk do. Some are just out and out sociopaths and don’t care nor feel.

Having said all that, a good life with healing can be had. With psychotherapy I have found that way I have been able to ‘take the temperature down’ of the pain. It will always pop up again but having worked on it in therapy, it’s effects lessen over time.

Thank you for doing such an amazing job for abused teenagers. I wish I had had understanding and support as a teen.

Saying that though I have an amazing circle of friends and family and this may have been the path I needed to walk to get here, even with all the ups and downs

DC64

I left my first husband as he was abusive - he wouldn’t own it years later when I spoke to him about it. He’s had two more wives since. On his own now apparently.
He came from an abusive family - I think you can either acknowledge it and break the cycle or you can perpetuate it.

This is so important.

I have also seen evidence that people can recognise that they were abused but are unable to recognise they are continuing that legacy.

It may be down to how they justify their behaviour again

Which is quite honestly, painful to watch.

I can see how rewarding your work must have been Sparkly you should be proud knowing what a difference you were able to make to people's lives .

Absolutely DC you don't have to perpetuate the cycle and it always really annoys me if an abuser uses the fact they themselves were abused, as some kind of defence and/or explanation.

If you were abused you know what that feels like, so when you abuse someone else you know what that feels like for them.

VioletSky

That's the important thing about this thread.

People genuinely don't recognise their own behaviour as abusive.

They go to great lengths to justify it.

The only real way to highlight abusive behaviour is to turn around on them and shine a light on it... try to show them that they don't like what they themselves dish out.

That doesnt make for a good relationship though

Hence people walking away. No shame in that either.

SparklyGrandma

I think some do, some can’t reflect on themselves. I worked with abused teenagers in my 20’s and 30’s - some of the abuse they faced, felt like their abuser enjoyed and planned it.

Some people are cruel, some enjoy it but the effects seem to be the same and lifelong either way.

Also, manipulative relatives with NPD can’t ‘feel’ properly, so don’t feel shame or guilt the way us ordinary folk do. Some are just out and out sociopaths and don’t care nor feel.

Having said all that, a good life with healing can be had. With psychotherapy I have found that way I have been able to ‘take the temperature down’ of the pain. It will always pop up again but having worked on it in therapy, it’s effects lessen over time.

This is excellent and I agree, especially the last part. Seeing my wife and children everyday, us living a happy life together, is pretty much all I need. My children aren’t missing out on a thing and my cup is full with my best friend and life partner. Life can be good if you focus on those who love you the most. Glad I chose our happiness. And yes, therapy helped me to see that I was putting myself in the “middle” as there cannot truly be a middle when it comes to a husband supporting his wife over those who would mistreat her. Can’t day I’ve felt pain from my estrangement for many years now.

Hi Smileless2012 you are right people who are narcissists have a deep narcissistic wound, based on shame and loos of pride. This is why they have the need to project shame and humiliation onto others. And why it’s best not to challenge them.

The work was challenging but also some of the most rewarding I have done. To see say a young man or woman aged 20 sail off to live in their own flat, working or attending college, at the end of their stay, was priceless.

I left my first husband as he was abusive - he wouldn’t own it years later when I spoke to him about it. He’s had two more wives since. On his own now apparently.
He came from an abusive family - I think you can either acknowledge it and break the cycle or you can perpetuate it.

Depends on the degree of insight they have into their own behaviour and motivation and that is entirely individual and is probably variable on a spectrum - neither good or bad but simply as it is.

"a good life with healing can be had" I have come across people who have managed to do just that Sparkly and they had been able to reflect on themselves which enabled them to seek the help and healing needed.

That must have been extremely stressful and upsetting work, and I do so admire those who are able to do it. As you say, some people are simply cruel and enjoy to see the pain and distress they inflict on others.

Having experienced first hand someone with NPD, I agree that they don't feel guilt or shame and yet, try very hard to absolve themselves of any and all responsibility. I wonder if sometimes that's because there is a degree of shame.

That's the important thing about this thread.

People genuinely don't recognise their own behaviour as abusive.

They go to great lengths to justify it.

The only real way to highlight abusive behaviour is to turn around on them and shine a light on it... try to show them that they don't like what they themselves dish out.

That doesnt make for a good relationship though

I think some do, some can’t reflect on themselves. I worked with abused teenagers in my 20’s and 30’s - some of the abuse they faced, felt like their abuser enjoyed and planned it.

Some people are cruel, some enjoy it but the effects seem to be the same and lifelong either way.

Also, manipulative relatives with NPD can’t ‘feel’ properly, so don’t feel shame or guilt the way us ordinary folk do. Some are just out and out sociopaths and don’t care nor feel.

Having said all that, a good life with healing can be had. With psychotherapy I have found that way I have been able to ‘take the temperature down’ of the pain. It will always pop up again but having worked on it in therapy, it’s effects lessen over time.

@Normandygirl,

As I said, were not going to agree on intent.

If one persists in directing behavior toward someone that the individual has objected to, they are an abusive person no matter the intent. One cannot be surprised or blame anyone but themselves for the other walking away or cutting them off if they haven’t the self-control to respect the boundaries of another person. Whether or not one has a thousand excuses or goes on about how the “intent” was not to cause harm does not change the truth of the matter. Do not persist in behavior toward other people that they object to or accept that the behavior and the choice to continuously engage is the root cause of one labelling you abusive or walking away. It’s actually much more simple than some would like to believe, but it would require the type of accountability that abusive people typically do not hold themselves to, hence the ceasing of said relationship.

My teacher's name was Mrs. Titterington. The only teacher's name I can remember; I wonder why!!!

Chewbacca

^It's never physical, it's just this drip-drip of victimhood^

This! Absolutely this! Permanently and perpetually a victim and therefore to be treated with kid gloves at all times, tiptoed around and never, never to be held accountable for what they've said or done. And to make it worse, he'd gaslight me later by rewriting the event so that it bore virtually no resemblance to what had actually happened! I understand now why he had to do that; But I'm cross with myself that I thought at the time that I could "mend him". I couldn't, he was beyond my help. He was too broken.

Were we with the same bloke Diamond?

I doubt it, you can’t have been that unlucky. I did 30+ years and then walked...?

Her name was Mrs Smith and she was ferocious,...?

<<snort>> regrettably not MissA!

Blind me, we never had teachers like that at school. Our history teacher was a very large lady and used to threaten to sit on anyone who wouldn't behave.

Not Mrs. Willoughby??

And if your teacher's name began with Mrs W, did we go to the same school?!

It's never physical, it's just this drip-drip of victimhood

This! Absolutely this! Permanently and perpetually a victim and therefore to be treated with kid gloves at all times, tiptoed around and never, never to be held accountable for what they've said or done. And to make it worse, he'd gaslight me later by rewriting the event so that it bore virtually no resemblance to what had actually happened! I understand now why he had to do that; But I'm cross with myself that I thought at the time that I could "mend him". I couldn't, he was beyond my help. He was too broken.

Were we with the same bloke Diamond?