Friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

I always say that to myself Allsorts, if I'm getting frustrated while waiting to be served because a customer's chatting to the assistant. They may have no one else to chat too so it's not something I should begrudge.

The scars we carry fade with time NanaDana but never disappear and can and do itch from time to time, regardless of how long it's been since we were first estranged.

Everything you did, everything all of us did was out of love. Mistakes that were made were never deliberate, never intended to cause pain because we loved them and despite what they've done, despite the pain they have caused, we love them still.

So what in earth is wrong with them, that they can treat us so badly and what on earth did we ever do, that makes us so unlovable to them?

After 10 plus years I still want to know. I still want to understand but thankfully those answers I seek are no longer sort on an hourly, daily, weekly, monthly or even yearly basis anymore.

Don't feel guilty Spring because when you get together as a family your EAC is missing out; their choice, not yours. You have the right to be with and enjoy the family you love, who love you in return and when you've been estranged, you need that even more.

"I found courage to post openly and haven't shut up since" Oh Whiff that made me laugh, and what a blessing you've been to us all here with your "rambles", kindness, good sense and support.

You're all great, each and every one of you and if I were to ever wonder why I continue to post on a matter I've been posting about for more than 10 years, which I never have done BTW, I'd only have to remind myself how great you all are, and how great those who no longer post, have been too.

DiamondLily I hope that love and (((hugs))) can express the words I can't find for you at this time x

NanaDana, I do understand what you did for your son, it’s unconditional love, eventually though it must end, they are not like your beloved child anymore. So pleased you have such a good relationship with your other three children, no one could begrudge you having a good life where you are loved.
I have always taken time to be pleasant to everyone, you never know what they have gone through, if you’re the only person they see that day. Many times I have gone out after not seeing anyone for days and had a conversation with a stranger that lifted my soul..

Whiff.. Thank you for your kind words. Sadly, what I've described is only a part of it. I left out the two druggie girlfriends, so he was possibly taking them himself, the two cars we passed on to him.. one of which he crashed and wrote off whilst uninsured. the gambling habit.. Yes, it sounds like something from the worst sort of soap opera, but unfortunately, that was our life back then. On the plus side we have another son, two daughters, two Granddaughters and a Grandson, all of whom are at the other end of the spectrum from the ingrate, so we are indeed counting our blessings.

NanaDana I don't know how you managed to help you son so much financially. Especially as you could have used the money for your own wants and needs. And then to estrange you . I would say it's beyond belief but after reading others stories I can well believe it. I am sorry that you and your husband have been put through such an awful ordeal. Like you say it's a scar that never heals but you can live with it. And knowing you are not alone I hope helps.

You say eldest son so means you have other children and I hope they love and cherish you and don't give you the grief your eldest son has. I hope you have a happy family life with them and any grandchildren you may have. 💐

Twelve years now since we became estranged from our eldest son, who is now 52.. at least physically. Over the years we tried to put him through three Universities... he was kicked out of all three for not working. Major financial support in helping him get onto the housing market including deposits for two consecutive houses... mortgages foreclosed on both through his non-payment.. plus, when we visited the house was so filthy we had to stay in a local hotel. Several thousand pounds in supporting his "business venture", which folded after a few months with total losses and further debt. So many other occasions when we stepped in with minor financial support. The final straw was when he asked us to act as guarantors in a rental agreement, and he conveniently forgot to tell us that he had outstanding CCJ's for debt from a previous rental. And after all that HE dumps US?! The irony is monumental. So yes, we are still so much better off without him in our lives, but as I'm sure you all know, there remains a scar which never quite heals. You just learn to live with it, don't you.. and count all your other blessings.

Spring what I said to Smiles goes for you. As that's what we do or in my case try to do with my daughter and family . She very rarely let's me treat them when we go out together. But I try and make it up for birthdays and Christmas with limited funds.

This may seem callous but not having my son and family to buy presents for or treats has meant my money is lasting longer as I have limited resources. Don't get my state pension until April.

You have nothing to feel guilty about it's your estranged children that should feel guilty. But of course our estranged children think they are right . But they are cruel coward's. It takes courage to face life's problems it takes courage to look your parents in the eye and tell them you no longer want them in their or children's life. My son took the cruel and cowardly way out via email,letter and his last text so I am done. Yes I still hurt but I will not let him hurt me anymore . He doesn't care but one day he will have to answer for he's actions . Not from me but from my grandson's . And if they want to find me they will and find out the truth of why I have been absent from their lives. My son put a time limit on his email it's supposed to erase in 2025. Foolish child . I have a hard copy of it.

My son and family I have to close that chapter of my life. I gave him 3 years and that is enough. I haven't got time to waste on hope as I don't know how my health will deteriorate. My mobility isn't what it was but at least I don't have the limbs jerks or seizures anymore but because of them and falling all my life my joints are damaged. But I still live my life to the full and in a way that's the best revenge I can have on my son. Because he probably hopes my life is miserable without him and my grandson's but it's not. Yes I have my wobbles but soon get over it

We have to live our lives to the full without our estranged children they hoped to break us but we can't let them. And because for me finding the support group and months of PM's to Smiles meant I found courage to post openly and haven't shut up since 🤣 .

I too sometimes worry my life is self indulgent Smileless. I also feel guilty at times treating the children who are with us to holidays and meals out knowing our EC for obvious reasons is missing out. But saddest of all are the memories being created that don’t include them. Would be strange now if they did re engage. One of our children who is in touch with EC told us recently they think EC is too proud to admit they made a mistake. Not sure what to do with that. I just continue to hope they are happy but deep down I feel they must know the unimaginable ongoing hurt we feel. How anyone can deliberately sustain that I will never understand. It is cruel. And because of that I’m not hopeful our EC can be happy or at peace. But life is what it is. We all make our choices. If E has taught me anything, it’s to try to be kind because we never know what other people are going through. And also to be content with what is….sitting in the garden with a cup of tea this Bank holiday was bliss! Like Smileless you learn to be thankful for simple pleasures. Another ‘gift’ of E is that it certainly puts life into perspective. Living with the pain of great loss makes you doubly grateful for the people and good things you have.
Still thinking of you Diamond Lily, and especially will do so on 2nd. 💐

Yes it is a good quote to live by everyday.

Just remembered the quote I wanted to put it's from the Gods of Egypt film. Horus says" what you do in this life that matters". I know he was referring to the after life. But still thing it's a good quote to live by everyday.

Whiff xx

Smiles your life with Mr S is not selfish or self indulgent. It is ideal as it should be . I am very glad you have eachother as a life without the other half of yourself is half a life. My brother when he found my sister law told me he finally understood what I had with my husband. As he never had it with his other 2 wives . They found the other half of themselves. Some people live their whole lives and never find that . They never know that love that completeness .

We have our children so they can fly and have lives of their own . So we can live the life we want. As parents we put our lives on hold until our children grow and make lives on their own it's how it should be. Then it's our turn to live the lives we want .
Unfortunately for some of us that never happened but that doesn't mean we aren't happy for friends and family who still have their husbands.

We have to live the best life we can as my husband made me promise. Took me from when he died in 2004 until ,2019 to do that and only because I moved over 100 miles. Yes I lost my son and grandson's but I still have my daughter and more friends who I can count on that I had before me move. Plus having neighbours that care. Where I used to live I could have been dead for days before any of my neighbours would have noticed.

Never think because you have Mr S than anyone would begrudge that or any here who still have their husbands . I am glad you all have your other halves to share the load. ❤️

Morning everyone. Hope you're finding things to enjoy this bank holiday weekend. They're not quite the same though, when you're retired are they.

As you say Allsorts and Whiff, you husbands were spared the pain but that's left you to carry on without their love and support and I can't begin to imagine how hard that must have been and continues to be.

We keep in touch with family, Mr. S.'s siblings and my cousins but see very little of them so it's pretty much just the two of us. I've had no contact with my brother because I contacted SS's about the awful conditions mum was living in, which meant I didn't see her for the two years before she died.

I sometimes think we have a strange life. We're happy and always find something to laugh about. Just driving back to our lodge after my rehearsal we had the radio on and Mr. S. was doing a very bad impression of Barry White. The voice wasn't too bad but the facial expressions were something to behold.

It just feels odd when you only have one another to think about and be a part of any plans you make. I have a friend whose quite literally run off her feet with one of her AC, GC and her parents and never has time for herself. Never going out for a meal or having one cooked for her unless they come to us.

Makes me think sometimes that our life's rather selfish and self indulgent but it's certainly not one we'd have chosen.

Oh well it is what it is and all we can do, for ourselves and one another, is make the best of what we have and be thankful.

Like Allsorts I am glad my husband was spared what my son has done. But then again if he lived it would never have happened as my husband wouldn't have put up with what I did for years. Also he won't have turned a blind eye to things I did. But I had both parents and mother in law dependant on my from when my husband died in 2004 until 2017 when my mom died . The children needed me but where 20 and 16 when their dad died. Both left home in 2006 son to uni and my daughter back to the city where she went to uni . It's what I wanted for both of them to have a life of their own . My daughter wasn't using her degree she worked so hard for living at home.

I am lucky my grandson's are near the same age my daughter's are 5 and 2.5 years my son's 6, nearly 5 and nearly 3. So seeing my daughter's boys I imagine what my other grandsons are doing. I imagine my son's youngest looks like his brothers as the only picture of him is a 20 week scan .

Luckily I live in a different part of the city outskirts from them so no fear of ever running into them. I have fantasied about being in a shop and someone shouting nannie and my eldest grandson running to me but that fantasy died after the first year. But know they would have forgotten what I look like by now. My son may have told them I am dead. But as far as he is concerned I am dead to them his choice and my daughter in law's.

I decided after my last attempt to contact him and his vile text back I had to close that chapter of my life. He wasn't hurting only I was and holding on to hope of him changing his mind was only causing me pain. So decided to no longer hold on to any hope. I have to much good in my life to let him spoil that and anyway the son I love and knew is dead as I no longer know who he is now and to be honest don't like what he has done and said so I don't love who he is now. I decided that when I had my meltdown last week.

By holding on to hope that we suddenly get our loving children back only hurts us. Like Allsorts says what sort of person can do that and like her we didn't raise our son to behave this way. The saddest thing for me is the realisation that my son is a coward and cruel. Two things I would never have thought he could be . At least my in laws said and did vile things to my husband's face and when we met to me and my family. I always thought my son was like his dad but both he and my daughter in law have shown themselves to be like my in laws and I put up with them from 1975 until 2015 when my mother in law died. So the last 3 years is nothing compared to that length of time being treated like crap.

I am now 65 and will not waste anymore time on wishing for something that I can't have . Yes I will have weak moments when I want him back but he will have to contact me . I am done.

Smiles I am sorry you saw that photo in the newspaper as it only brings back the time you have lost. But so glad you still have Mr S . Together you can face anything and my hope for you both is you have a long time to be together. As much as we love our children it's our husbands that come first in our lives.

Spring I am lucky to have little ones in my life even though they both now call me ninny nannie. The youngest started it he can't say silly so it came out as ninny . My daughter told me I was a ninny nannie after last week. Probably will in coming years have other meltdowns but hopefully never as bad as last week.

Will go into the garden today for a while . Have a good day everyone.

Yes Smileless we struggle with seeing little ones playing too. We both have bad/sad days, but when we see gp and their gc, it can send both of us into a spiral at the same time. The sadness at what is lost, and the complete inability to do anything about it as our EC refuses to engage. We have other family around us and plenty of young adults and children in the mix, and for that we’re so so grateful, but nothing tears at the heart more than the absence of your own child. Unless someone genuinely considers it unsafe to re engage, or believes stated boundaries won’t be respected, then I really struggle to understand why people do this. They really can’t be thinking of us as we think of them……maybe they can just eliminate us and move on.
It must have been hard to see the photo in the newspaper. Lovely but hard. I’m so sorry we have to go through this.

💐How I feel for you Smileless , looking at those children playing and what you have missed, seeing your husbands face and feeling his loss. At least my husband was spared that, he died too soon but when he did he had his family close, he wasn’t to know that I was not only going to feel his loss but half my family too.. It’s a pain no one else can imagine, you have to experience it, that’s why I could never risk it again. What sort of person can do that? I don’t know her anymore, that’s not how I raised her.

I feel like I'm full up with the forgetting forgetting our EAC doesn't happen subconsciously, we have to work at forgetting. Make an effort so that when we start to remember we force ourselves to think about something else instead, and that is as exhausting and upsetting as remembering Sparkly.

That said it can with time happen 'naturally' and you can find yourself hardly thinking of them at all and when that began happening with me, I actually felt guilty and ashamed!!!

I was watching Mr. S. yesterday, watching the children here playing and I could see how sad and thoughtful he was. Children riding around on bikes and scooters and little ones toddling along.

They're here with their GP's, sometimes their parents too and it's a great place for children especially where our lodge is sited, with a large grass area to the front, the 'road' running all the way round and any traffic restricted to 5mph.

It's not as hard as it used to be now we know our GS's are older but seeing little ones especially little boys, tugs at the heart string and will momentarily have me yearning for what was lost and can never be.

It's the absurdness of some situations that gets me. We were asked if we wanted to be given the local paper from where we used to live as there's a photo of our eldest GS whose won some awards for karate.

We said yes and when we received it, spent some time working out which on was him!!! All the children's names were printed but it wasn't immediately obvious.

Think we got it right though, but I suppose we'll never know for certain.

Smileless Yoga enjoy your breaks. I am surprised I’ve never had a melt down yet.
My style is to avoid thinking about my DS etc, but I feel like I’m full up with the forgetting.

I really am enjoying my singing hugs and it's great that my voice has improved with the lessons .

It's been a long time since I sang a solo Allsorts, years in fact and I'm pretty sure that without the lessons I'd never have found the confidence to do so again.

That is a very odd thing for your SS's wife to want to know DL; if he wants to know why didn't he ask?

We're here now Whiff , arrived yesterday and because we've been so busy with the flat and at home, it's only our second time this year which is very unlike us, so it's even better to be here now and the weather is great so plenty of BBQ's to come.

How lovely Yogin, where are you off two and who with? I suspect it's with your lovely D and adorable GC.

Thank you Whiff Hope you are feeling more upbeat today. I think we all have those nightmares about losing our other AC&GC yet knowing, being reassured by them, that we won't. We are all off on a little holiday soon, so looking forward to that.

Thank you all for your support as always .

What an odd thing to ask about your husband's ashes DiamondLily before you have had the funeral. I have probably said this before after dad died we kept his ashes as mom and dad wanted to be sprinkled together. So my brother and me at dusk sprinkled them mixing them together by a hut on the banks of the river Severn. It's where they used to sit and have a picnic. You weren't supposed to do it but some of their ashes landed on the bank and some went into the water. It's what they wanted. My husband's ashes are in my wardrobe it's one thing I have never beable to do . I know it's not him but everytime I thought about sprinkling them I cried. Both the children said they would sprinkle us together . Now it will be just up to my daughter . One of my craft group her husband is a jeweller and is going to put a bit of her dad's ashes into making a necklace for herself,her mom ,brother and her daughter's. Also she is having some of his clothes made into a memory bear for each of them . One of my craft friends her sister makes them and they cost £25 .

My sister in law's mom's ashes are buried in their garden. Her dad lives with them and asked if they could do it. And they have planted things that last all year round. They won't be moving again and recently had the whole garden redone as they only moved there 2 years ago.

I have only been to one burial and that was my best friends husband in December. She had a willow coffin may seem an odd thing to say but it was beautiful. She picked a plot so the sun would shine on him and she will go in the same plot.

To me burials seen odd. I know my husband's body is a pile of ash I feel fine about that . But I would have hated a burial and this is going to sound awful but I couldn't bear the thought of his body rotting in the earth.

Death brings out the best and worst in some people. Estrangement just makes it worse. Just hope if your husband's children do turn up DiamondLily they behave themselves. If not I hope your family and friends will throw them out. I know of 2 funerals that happened one I attended . My cousin's brothers threw his wife's father from the crem as soon as he tried to enter as he hadn't wanted anything to do with her while she was alive. And a friend of my husband's got killed by a woman motorist while he was on his motor bike he was only 19. She and her husband turned up at his funeral my husband and friends physical threw them out before his mother saw them. She would have killed them if she had.

Estrangement causes enough problems when all parties are alive but more so after death.

Yogin I hope you are alright about your neighbours death. You cared enough to help him even though he was vile to you when you moved in . Glad you got thanked by his family.

Are you going to the lodge soon Smiles now your house is water tight and decorated. It's supposed to be getting hotter in the coming weeks.

Take care everyone and enjoy yet another bank holiday.

My goodness DiamondLily I do feel like you have some insensitive people to deal with. I'm glad you felt strong enough to just state what you're doing. DH and I have already decided about things we want that will keep us together in the end. x

Whiff, I'm sorry you had a bad meltdown. As smiles says, that feeling of being haunted by the fear of losing another child - it's just dreadful. It's floored me a few times when some small thing has happened that has felt huge to me.

The singing thing sounds marvellous smiles. It's wonderful that you are still pushing yourself with new passions and enjoying them so much.

Whiff, I’m so sorry you had such a big wobble. You have had to cope with so much throughout your life, is it any wonder it all gets too much at times. Your daughter and grandchildren will never do to you what your son has, look at the night out you had Saturday, she puts a lot of thought into everything she does. She will understand how you get so low, so let it go.
Smileless what an honour a solo part, you have obviously got a very good voice, I would be hopeless doing anything in front of people on my own, but there again no one would want to hear me sing,
DL, good for you, you can’t please everyone, do things as you are, your way and the way, he was your husband and you knew him best,

It's the second verse from 'A Million Dreams' Yogin. There are 5 soloists in total with all the students joining in with the chorus' so not too onerous and a good way of getting back to solos.

Oh I thought that too Whiff about my inner diva not exactly hidden. Are you OK? That is something that unless you've been estranged, you can't understand.

You can't understand the fear that haunts you, that you might lose your other child or children too. The fear is the spectre at the feast, it never leaves you even though you have a good relationship with the child/children who remain a part of your life.

Oh that's lovely DL and what I want Mr. S. and I to do, to have our ashes scattered together because we were together in life x.

Thanks to you all - you really are helping.💐💐

The funeral is on 2nd, so next week. The funeral directors phoned yesterday, they want his clothes up there soon, for the chapel of rest.

It all feels that it's getting closer, and I'm still dreading the whole thing.

My eldest SS's wife texted me to ask what I was doing with his ashes...God knows why.🤔

I texted straight back and said I'm doing what DH wanted - keeping them all here with me, and when I die, DD is scattering both our ashes together. End of conversation for me. I'm not arguing about it.

I just feel I don't want to be thinking about all this right now.

Oh dear, some people leave me bemused...🙁

Thanks again - and have a nice day.💐

Hope you feel better @Whiff.

DiamondLily it's all to easy to think because you are the wife /widow . (I know I am a widow be to me I am a wife. ) You have to take all the responsibility on your shoulders I am guilty of that and still are as a mom and nannie. We think we can face anything and our role is to protect others at least that's how I felt and still do.

I am a fool. As my massive melt down yesterday afternoon showed. I have written about it on Black Dog thread.

Good job it's craft group this afternoon. Otherwise I think I would just be working myself into a frazzle in the garden just to stop myself thinking about yesterday. I don't frightened easily but yesterday I was so frightened I had lost my daughter and this time I would have know why and it would have been my fault. Thankfully I spoke to her last evening and as well as the boys calling my ninny nannie she called me it to.

Once the funeral is over you never need see his children ever again.

Smiles a solo shows how much your teacher thinks how beautiful you sing. Mr S will be sitting there with a big smile on his face while you sing. Not that he doesn't already. I don't know about inner diva I think you already are a diva 😁.

Routine has kept me going and doing things a certain way so I can cope with my body in my school,college and work life . Then learning new ways when I got worse 35 years ago I thought I had it licked. I never thought of the mental problems it has caused. Being bullied at school was horrible but I coped. In the late 60-70's it was part of school life . Unfortunately children are still being bullied in this day and age. We think we live in more enlightened age but nothing much has changed apart from technology and medical break throughs. Yesterday proved there are things that have effected my mental health and being on antibiotics probably made it worse as they can make you feel low. Had last one this morning.

At least I can now see what I need to do to help myself . Still learning which means at least I still have my marbles.

Hope you all have the sunny weather.