Friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

I offend wonder what my son looks like. If he follows his dad he's hair with be going salt and pepper. He used to get a patch of alopecia at the back of his hair his GP said it was stress related. It always grew back after it got to the size of a ten pence piece it grew back. I had forgotten that until I read the last 2 posts.

For anyone like me who has mobility problems I saw this on a sweatshirt.
I'm not clumsy just the floor hates me . The table and chairs are bullies. And the walls get in my way.

It fits me ,my sister in law and some of my craft friends. 😁

I know in our case, one of the issues was control Onward, beginning with our ES's wife. Her need to be the centre of our universe as well as our ES's but that was never going to happen, and he must have known that.

The other was jealousy of his relationship with us and in particular me. We were very close and always had been. When our first GC was born, he would 'phone me from work or out walking the dog so she wouldn't know the calls were taking place.

When they were married, we were invited to an evening wedding reception of a young couple we'd met through our son; they'd been there the entire day.

Another friend of ES's arrived with his GF who I'd met before and knew to be shy. She was often alienated by the other women including ES's wife I think because she was stunningly beautiful. Tall and slim with legs that seemed never ending and a beautiful face.

We were stood with ES and his wife when they arrived and I told her how beautiful she looked. ES's wife response was 'what about me, you haven't said I look beautiful'.

Our loss like yours and all EP's will last a lifetime and like you we have found peace and the freedom to live our lives as we choose, free from judgement and the lies, and also now and for sometime free of the hope that one day things will change and he'll come back.

For us, that hope was a weight that we carried around for years and prevented us from moving on with our lives and beginning to heal.

I was chatting yesterday to a friend now living abroad, whose the same age as DS. She said she'd been sent some photographs from a friend who'd recently been away with our ES and his wife, and that if she hadn't recognised his wife, she wouldn't have known it was him.

I barely recognised him the last time I passed by him about 5 years ago, he looked so awful and wouldn't want to see him now.

I prefer to remember him the way he was, happy and handsome.

PS pressed too soon!

Meant to say, I still have my values, my freedom of thought, my choices about my body and health , my choices about how to spend money and how to live, my choices of who to be friends with and how to spend my time. I have PEACE not being tormented by his horrible insults and I have others who love me.

There will always be a loss, true. But I can hold my head up high, knowing with a clean conscience that I did absolutely everything I could for him. True, I made mistakes as all parents do , but I have apologized and am constantly learning and evolving as a person anyway so am not the same person I was even two years ago-let along ten years ago. Ironically he has never owned any of his own mistakes. Oh no, "it's everyone else's fault but his". Classic. And he takes drugs with his kids at home. Niiiiiice. Parent of the year, not.

Always easier to point the finger at your own parents than do the work on your own life and accept that we all have flaws.

We can't replace our ES any more than they can replace us. They will never have that parent who loves them and bent over backwards to help them again as long as they have a desire to hatefully dominate , abuse and demean. They have deprived their kids of a family who loves them.

I have a good life and don't need to take drugs to escape anything as ES does, because I have made peace and because I have a full and fulfilling life, even without ES. If they want to shoot themselves in the foot, they will have to hop because there comes a time when we as parents step back and force them to be men even when they act like little boys.

Good morning ladies.
Glad your singing lesson went so well Smileless and that Mr S is back. I can imagine the dogs were over the moon !

I agree with you , it's so cruel. Boundaries could have been put in place as you suggested, but what if the real issue is control? I was reading on a Harry story in the comments (DM) that someone suggested H wanted everything his way or no contact. Makes me think of the saying "It's my way or the highway". Could be that our ES or their wives have similar thinking. Perhaps the goal is dominance, control and compliance, or they don't want to know us.

That would certainly explain why my ES was always bringing up the past and attempting to shame me or make me feel less than. I do know that I always gave my best and if my best is not good enough he will need to find someone else to control. It is a loss to lose him, but it would have been a worse loss to lose myself and be controlled by the child I gave birth to.

Morning everyone. There's a strong cold wind here this morning and the wind last night must have been gale force, it was so strong.

Good news about the new exercise class Whiff, hope you enjoy it as much as you enjoy your craft group. We still have our business but it's a dormant company, in existence because of assets but no longer trading.

I can imagine how hard it must be to lose your husband if the business is still running, especially if a non family member is involved. It was a relief to us both when Mr. S. retired and we knew that neither of us would have to worry about when one of us died.

Why do these men give into these cruel ultimatums DL? Even in the wake of a massive fallout, telling the man you claim to love that it's you and the children or his family is so cruel and for me is said out of spite against the husband's family.

Boundaries can be put in place for example that children aren't left alone with the GP's and that the d.i.l. wont have to have any contact with her in laws.

I had no contact with my in laws for about 7.5 years but Mr. S. had regular weekly visits with them and the boys also had regular contact. It never did, and never would have entered my head to demand that he choose them or us, and I'm sure my opinion of him would have been less positive if I had, and he'd agreed.

Mr. S. got home yesterday afternoon and to say the dogs were thrilled to see him would be an understatement Whiff, especially our Cockapoo, who was still so excited when she had her tea, that she brought the whole lot up.

Had my first singing lesson since being unwell on Tuesday and it went much better than expected. Choir doesn't start again until the 24th and we'll probably get started on what we'll be singing for Easter.

Hope you're getting settled into your lovely new homes hugs and DSL and that little Joey is coping with the strong winds Yogin.

Our little poodle's always a bit hyper when it's windy out on his walks, leaping around like a puppy again.

DiamondLily sorry to hear about your stepson and daughter in law. Hopefully they realise how your husband feels. If my son had told me the last time I saw him on my birthday sorry mom can't see you again it's you or my family. I would have been very upset but I would have said you have to do what's right for you. And would have asked just to let me know they are ok every few months and a photo of my grandson's every now and then. But he choose the cruel and cowardly way . I know why because he couldn't face saying to my face. Before we had children we decided no subject would be taboo and anything the children wanted to know they would be told. We also decided to never pry into their lives once they where teenagers. So both children always knew they could talk to us . I continued non prying after my husband died and the children moved out .

But having zero contact with my son and family is hard but for me it's better than the treading on eggs shells some have done. But what hurts me most is my son and daughter in law knows what a bad mother , mother in law and grandmother is they both knew my husband 's mom. My son knows how she treated us as a family and how she treated my side of the family. I sometimes think they have turned into my in laws. The big difference is my husband and me never gave up on them because he loved them and never kept the children away from them. And after my husband's death they never gave up on her both couples never did even though she denied having grandchildren . I could have given up on my mother in law after my husband died but I couldn't that would have been cruel. She was my husband's mom and children's nan therefore family. Because of my upbring and my mom's strong sense of family I follow her. My brother's idea of family is his family and mine. He never bothered with aunt's,uncles and cousins unlike me.

But family doesn't have to be blood. Cherished friends can be family and in my case a couple are like sisters .

Friends can appear from anywhere and you can be friends even if you never meet them . There's an old saying a friend is a stranger you haven't met yet. I feel I have friends here and on other threads. You can get to care deeply about people just thought words. You can spot who is genuine and who isn't, those I ignore do so threw gritted teeth.

My craft group soon became an important part of my life in fact from the first time I went. With me what you see is what you get. Simple fact I don't lie because I can't always remember things. That's why Covid lockdown was so hard. But once we could meet one of the women that started the group opened up a closed what's app page for us to keep in touch with eachother other. Yesterday we had 2 new woman join. There are some who can only come every so often and ones like me know matter how ill I fee I still go as it does me good. In normal life we would never have met but the love of craft brought was together and because we care about eachother no one feels alone with any health problems or worries. I suppose we are our own therapy group as we talk about anything and everything. Gets a bit racy at times but that's us. My Victoria sandwich went down well yesterday I filled it with my 4 berry jam. I took a jar of lemon marmalade as a thank you to the person who gave me a cross stitch kit she had brought and would never get round to doing it. Her knitting and some crochet take all her time. Everything she does is for charities.

My old exercise instructor didn't get back to me so I emailed the church round the corner from to ask about the exercise class and was kindly give the ladies name and number. She runs 2 classes on Mondays one at the libary of a morning and the one at the church Monday afternoon. So I am going on Monday afternoon. Meeting new people doesn't bother me. Looking forward to getting my body moving again it's a sit fit group which is good as I have lost some of my stability. Physically not mentally. Mind you saying that when I went to have my heart tablet before my dinner yesterday couldn't find the sleeve out of my pill box. It's always on my side table where I sit as I constantly check through the day I have taken my tablets. Looked everywhere. Good job I always have a good supply of tablets it. So took the one I had to while still looking . Looked everywhere including the bins . Finally found it under the fleece on my bed and realised luckily I had taken my morning tablets apart fro my blood thinner. 🤦. When my grandson's come or when Aggie was here I put it in the top of my clock on the mantle piece so they can't get to them .

The Brain Charity are having an events day in March during the day so have signed up for that. They had things on before Christmas but it was at night and won't go into the city at night.

Smiles hope Mr S got home safely yesterday. Bet the dogs where glad to see him. How are your singing lessons going and have you got any performances lined up with your choir?

Hugs glad your new home is slowly getting together . Took me 3 years to get the bungalow just as I wanted it.

DerbyshireLass are you enjoying living in the bungalow? I love living on one level mind you my knees feel it when I go up stairs.

Yogin hope Joey didn't get blown about on his walks with these high winds we have at the moment.

The house on the corner of my road their garden is opposite my bungalow had 3 large trees and large shrubs removed on Wednesday. Bet they glad they had it done as yesterday it would have been to dangerous for the men high up in the trees with chainsaws.

My friend who's husband died in November had started going back to her gym days and her yoga class and was made to feel welcome and people had been worried about her. While sorting out her husband's factory unit with his workers a neighbour removed some trees roots she was going to tackle . Said it was a lovely surprise as sorting out her husband's paperwork was upsetting. One of his employees wants to buy the business so she's got to get it valued . Also having to chase someone who hasn't paid for work her husband did. But the men have said if she has any problems with him they will deal with him . It worn her out and said know exactly how she feels. The difference with my husband's business he had a business partner but they didn't own the building only rented. Looking back I should have had more for my husband's half of the business but I had other things to worry about. Plus I was 45 things would have been different now as I am older and wiser. Once the business is sold that's a big thing off her list of to do's . As she says being a widow is shitty and it is and unfortunately for me the grief gets worse just learn to cope but grief still overwhelms me at times after all these years. As other widows probably feel the same way.

Anyway enough rambling . Take care everyone.

Welcome Fuzlet. I'm sorry to hear your sad story. It sounds like mental health issues are driving the estrangement, something I fear may be a big factor with my ES. A very tricky situation, unfortunately. I'm glad you find a new friend and that is giving you some comfort.

Glad to hear your neurologist is supporting your PIP claim Whiff - I hope that helps you get it sorted.

Sorry to hear about all the fall outs in your DHs family DiamondLily - what a lot of drama and pain.

Non-stop rain here today. I resealed a couple of windows, Mr Hugs fiddled around with some faulty door handles but hasn't got them sorted yet. Plumber fitted new kitchen tap. Bit more progress.

DSL - good that your situation is easier now, even if it doesn't last. It's nice to have some respite from it all. Sometimes, laying it on the line, as you did, helps.👍

Chickens sometimes come home to roost for these stroppy ACs though.

DH's eldest son never bothers with him. We are fully estranged from his youngest son, but I was pretty startled at the behaviour of his eldest. There had never been any sort of fall out or discord - they just stopped phoning or visiting really.

One visit in 18 months, two phone calls last year, and none when DH was very poorly a year ago.

Their ACs, (DH grandchildren), don't bother either. It's not personal, they just can't be bothered with "oldies" - any of them.🙄

The GC now have young children of their own, who we don't know at all really.

DH has been very hurt by all this, naturally.

However, last week SS and DIL asked to come over for lunch. I gritted my teeth, plastered on a smile, and made them a nice lunch.

Well, it was all tears and sobbing here. They have had a massive falling out with their DIL (quite justifiably, if I'm honest), and she gave their son (her husband) an ultimatum - he had to choose between her and their two toddlers, or his family.

He chose her and the kids, so he has cut off all contact with his family. All of them, including us.

SS and DIL are distraught as they were close to their grandchildren, but their son won't budge, and neither will their DIL. They are out of the GCs life.🙁

I did sympathise, but I hope it does make them see how hurtful it is for people to just be cut out of their children's lives.

My poor DH despairs - he just feels his family is falling apart around him, and there's nothing he can do.

I'd just like a quiet life....🙄

Fuzlet so sorry to read your story. I became a surrogate mum & nannie to one of my DD best friends. Her mum had just passed away with cancer, I had just lost my DD&GC to estrangement, so we needed each other at the time. As nice as it was, it wasn't my DD&GC, it slowly petered out and went back to just seeing now & again and birthdays. Unfortunately, my DD friend died last year of cancer too!
There's nothing you can do re your DD, only thing is to wait it out & hope. Yes, I read that your DD m.i.l had cut you out too.

Good luck with your PIP and new classes Whiff

Hope you're getting lots of cuddles from your furbabies Smiles whilst your DH is away.

Not looking good for walkies today!

Smileless2012

I haven't watched anything Yogin. Even with the clips I mute the tv because I can't stand listening to them constantly moaning and bitching.

I feel the same. Even watching his lips move is a step too far!

I just posted a question www.gransnet.com/forums/ask_a_gran/1319966-How-many-times-should-you-apologise-If-the-apology-is-not-accepted-then-what
It will be interesting to read the answers. I'm sure I'll get some abuse, but overall I hope to make people think. There are so many assumptions about estrangement and I want to challenge those.

to you all on this dark wet and dreary day! Hope you enjoy your singing lesson Smileless!

QuoteDerbyshireLass Mon 09-Jan-23 15:11:01

I agree DSL My estD would speak sounding just like her rotten H, so it wasn't her speaking it was him!

I haven't watched anything Yogin. Even with the clips I mute the tv because I can't stand listening to them constantly moaning and bitching.

Spring20

Anyone else appreciative that tv commentators appear to be picking up on the inconsistencies of Harry’s words and behaviour? Sounds dreadful to admit this but we’ve gone round in circles trying to make sense of our EC’s words. Is just a comfort to know we aren’t alone. Overall though I’m just incredibly sad to see another family where all the members are clearly in pain and suffering, both estrangers and estranged.

Yes, I agree Spring

Did anyone watch the interviews? I didn't. But saw lots of unsavoury clips on the news programmes.

Welcome to the support thread Fuzlet. I may have misunderstood but I thought from your post that the other GM your D's m.i.l. has also gone no contact with you.

Unfortunately sometimes other family members feel pressurised into also alienating the family member(s) for fear of being estranged themselves.

Great news about your neurologist supporting your claim for PIP Whiff, let's hope that you hear something very soon and that your claim is successful.

It's grey and drizzly here this morning but the dogs have had their morning walk. I have a singing lesson this afternoon which will be interesting as my voice still hasn't fully recovered from that horrible cold and cough we both had.

Maybe I should suggest she brings some ear plugs with her.

Fuzlet I am sorry you have joined the estrangement club . But very glad you plucked up the courage to post and tell your story. You will find all the understanding,advice ,support and friendship you need from everyone here. Without this support thread I couldn't get through each day. I am glad you have the support of your husband at least you aren't going through this alone. So sad both sets of grandparents have no contact. I feel for your granddaughter growing without grandparents.

My 3 grandson's with my son and daughter in law only know one nannie and she lives with them. The only family they know are my daughter in law's side . They haven't even got a grandad she is estranged from her dad and he lives thousands of miles away in another country. And my husband died 19 years next month. They have gone zero contact will all our side of the family.

As you are worried about your granddaughter being looked after do you know or the other nannie know of anyone who sees your daughter and granddaughter perhaps they would be willing to tell you how she is.

Having contact with that young woman and her family benefits both families and the child has surrogate grandparents.

I think I read somewhere that families without grandparents can be paired up with older people to be surrogate grandparents to their children.

Our estranged children forget how important grandparents are to children . I couldn't have deprived my horrible in laws from seeing and knowing their grandchildren. As awful as they where it would have been cruel.

As been said many times estrangement hurts and is a living grief.

On a different note I had a letter from my neurologist yesterday supporting my claim for PIP. Will get it copied and sent off to my solicitor on Thursday when I go to the library . Also heard from my old exercise instructor with 2 classes which would suit me. On is in the church round the corner from me and the other one at the library both easy to reach. So asked for more information as she only put the time and not the day or phone number of who to call to join. Hopefully she answers my email today.

Very heavy rain here glad I don't need to go anywhere today .

Take care all.

Welcome Fuzlet, So sorry about your estrangement. It sounds strange the way your daughter and partner are behaving. Could it be depression? Her partner sounds the same or just can't cope.. Just hope your little grandchild is being cared for as they dont seem to care. There are so many cases recently where babies are not being looked after by parents.I would need to know gc is safe and well. At least my d and sil were caring and their children safe and looked after.
.You have new friends and your life is full again. Who knows what the future holds.

Fuzlet91 I'm so sorry. How painful. It's so sad for both Grandma's to lose touch.

Christmas is a hard time. Well done for making your new young friend. I'm glad you're appreciated and I'm glad for your new happiness and busyness.

Hi all this is my first post. I don’t know where to begin but here goes. My only child and beautiful daughter has gone no contact. She has a partner of 8 yrs and they have a daughter of almost 2 yrs my precious GD. She was pregnant during lockdown and my husband and I were in their ‘bubble’ after the birth. It was clear that my daughter was struggling so much with post natal depression. I tried everything to support them. She then began being very critical about everything I said, the way I looked, how I’d been a terrible Mother just everything. I was walking on eggshells. I never dared say anything about how my GD was not very clean and how when I visited my D would be sat staring into space ignoring the needs of my GD. This is an example of many occasions:-One day my D and her partner had a sickness bug and GD was poorly too. They asked me to take her to a Drs appointment which I did. The Dr tried for over an hour to contact them so he could examine my GD … both had switched their phones off. I have to mention that my D’s partners Mum and I had become friend over the years and had met many times and shared the joy of being Grandmas. She was seeing our GD every week and just kept saying oh D will come round etc. I’m now convinced she was told by my D not to let me be at hers when GD was there. My D began pushing me away, making arrangements then cancelling. I missed her and my GD. We used to be in touch almost every other day for as long as I can remember. I could go on and on it’s been an awful time. The last contact was in May when I called to see her with a letter to ask to see her and my GD prior to that on Mothers Day I heard nothing. Since May nothing. I’ve given her the space she wants and not contacted her. Since May his Mum has also gone no contact? None of it all makes sense. The past 7 months have been so painful I can’t put it into words. At first I couldn’t look at my phone when I got a message as I just hoped it would from D, the same with email etc. My husband of 15 yrs has been so supportive. He has known my daughter for over 20 years and had supported my D too overs the years. Christmas was so hard to deal with. I did sent a card to GD in the post. I can openly say I have cried at some point every day. I’m sure all of you have been where I am. However, something has changed for the good. In late Summer I met a lovely young Mum with a child aged 18 months whilst I was out at the supermarket and we have become friends ( her Mum died a few years ago). Her husband is just so kind. We meet once a week, playgroup, lunch out etc - all 4 adults too sometimes. I’m now too busy to be sad anymore. My new young friend is so different to my daughter she appreciates my company and even laughs at my jokes. Life can be so cruel but if you have an open heart kindness does find you.

Aww, glad you got a lovely email smiles.

Oh yes, the inconsistencies. It amazes me how those saying ever changing things seem totally oblivious to the shifts in their own story.
I think you're right DSL - it's like they are brainwashed.

The more I read and think, the more I think the narrative these days is that kids expect their parents to care for them and provide for them forever, on a one-way street. At what point does 'treat me like an adult' turn into 'we're all adults, equally able to speak and listen, give and take'? At what point does chief cook and bottlewasher, bank and babysitter, become a human with needs and opinions of their own that are valid?

I remember working in schools when my kids were school-aged, and being struck by how much 'teaching to script' to pass those SATs I witnessed. How little leeway for real curiosity or individualization. How prescriptive much of it seemed. Is this why our kids are so easily led?

It's so frustrating and upsetting isn't it Smileless. As you were friends with your DiL's Mum and already knew the history it is obvious what happened, yet so unfair.

Glad Mr S is having a good time and lots of nice food!

Especially good for Mr. S. Spring.

Ha ha! Good you cleared that up Smileless!

It may be beneficial to EP's to see how H's allegations against his father and brother are being unpicked Spring. Too often we are made to feel that it must be our fault and made to feel that our EAC are entirely blameless.

Our ES became his wife's mouthpiece DSL. Recounting 'issues' based on childhood experiences that weren't even his, they were her's. I know because I was good friend's with her mother before they even met.

I'm sorry that you are, and to a certain extent will always have to be on your guard.

I agree Onward sometimes the line of least resistance is mistakenly viewed as the easy option, with no thought as to what the final consequences will be.

Had a 'phone call from Mr. S. whose seen a couple of really good matches and had a game himself. Enjoying the food, sounds a bit like a cruise when you can eat as much as you want, whenever you want.

Maybe him returning with just a couple of extra pounds was a little optimistic.

Took in a show last night too and then, well this made laugh, was telling me about the room he's got all to himself. I said "I should bloody well think so". Apparently some of them in the group are sharing which is why he told me had had a room of his own.

Thanks Derbyshirelass

I think these boys of ours are quite easily led by their wives sometimes, unfortunately. I think they sometimes take the path of least resistance. Athough in my son's case I think it was the drugs (the trip where he supposedly saw me doing something awful that I have no idea about) and the online hate groups he's joined that first turned him against us for being vaccinated as well as other things.

It's good you're on your guard. Trust has to be earned. So pleased for you to rebuild the relationship with your son.

Oh yes, the Oprah interview. He really is letting himself down with all these inconsistencies. I don't know how anyone will trust anything he says in future. What seeds are these adults sowing for their own kids? In Harry's case, they will be able to read all about it one day.

Spring.......I noticed that too, so many inconsistencies and long incoherent rambles that just don't make sense. It's all California speak and psychobabble. He has become M's mouthpiece, even down to the voice inflection and phrasing, never mind the terminology. He doesn't even speak like he used to. It's not his truth, it's her truth.

It reminds me so much of my DIL. This is exactly what I got (and still get) from time to time. And eventually my son even began to sound like her, he became her mouthpiece. He spoke but often it was her words.

It's so hard to help them when you can't make any sense of what they are trying to say. It's as if they are "speaking in tongues".

As Onwards points out drugs will do that, they destroy brain cells. And to say "i only smoked some weed occasionally" is to miss the point. Modern cannabis bears no resemblance to the stuff going around in the 60s, it is much more powerful and it is known to induce paranoia, as does cocaine use. And that's not counting the power of hallucinogenic and "mind expanding" drugs that Onwards son has been messing with.

In my sons case there were no drugs involved but rather it was brain washing. Someone mentioned that H often sounds like he is a member of a cult......I think that's a very fair description. Being the victim of a narcissist is like being in a two person cult, the victim is brainwashed by the oppressor.

I watched the interview last night,

Tom Brady gave Harry an easy ride.....not picking up on the inconsistencies and anomalies. So much left unsaid and unexplained, and no attempt to pick Harry up for his backtracking and history revision.

(Apparently they never accused the family of racism, that was the media........yeah right. Has he conveniently forgotten the Oprah interview).

Brady doesn't seem much of a journalist, more like a pet poodle. Apparently he was handpicked by the Sussexes as an "old friend" and he submitted his questions in advance.

Who do they think they are.....yes they are private citizens now and no longer in receipt of public monies so arguably no longer accountable but their departure is still quite recent.

One of Harry's gripes is that Papa withdrew funding, (his own money, not taxpayer monies). Even Charles finally had enough of being The Bank of Dad.

The more I read this thread the angrier I get sometimes. I think you are all being treated shamefully by your estranged ACs. I can feel your hurt and pain burning through your posts.

I know I've dodged a bullet and I have managed to rebuild my relationship with my son but I am by no means complacent. I still feel that I have to tread warily. I know full well that my DIL is quite capable of deliberating sabotaging the reconciliation and torpedoeing our family again.

I still think it's only a question of time before the nonsense starts again. All I can do is be on my guard.