Friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

This thread is for anyone whose life has been affected by estrangement so it's fine for you to post here August and I hope you'll find doing so is helpful.

Great post Hugshelp about how people are labelled and division is caused. I agree we are encouraged to see things in black and white terms - people are either good or bad - whereas in reality all of us are both. Would love to see everyone get better at managing the nuances and work at relating better, but when communication is cut off that is impossible.
So sorry to read of your situation August. It's not easy, and no one knows what the future will be, but if you can always act decently and with kindness, at least in your heart you can be at peace, and hopefully there will be few things to blame you for. I wish you well in keeping lines of communication open with your daughter, who herself is probably conflicted. I hope she can come to see loving both parents isn't disloyal.

August sorry to read your sad story, I wish you luck in getting your DD back, hopefully as she grows, she will hear the whole story and come back to you again.

You have posted on estranged grandparents page, so best if you start your own thread for advice. Just copy & paste your above post and start a new discussion.

Going out shortly but wanted to respond to you Augustwest as soon as I'd read your post.

Well done for finally getting a visitation agreement so you are able to see your children again. It makes me angry that a parent has to do this because the other parent deliberately keeps their children from them. Another example of how children are used as weapons, and the worse one IMO.

I suggest that you approach your daughter on her terms, so ask her if she wants a hug for example, rather than assuming she does. When your visit is coming to an end, ask her if you can kiss her goodbye and if her response to either or both is 'no', tell her that's OK, that you love her and look forward to seeing her again soon.

There's nothing you can do about the time already lost and you're right, your ex has robbed you of that time but patience with, and understanding of your daughter, will I'm sure over time bring its own rewards.

If she asks you why you've been missing in their lives, try to explain but without criticising her mother. Be honest about how much you've missed them and give constant verbal reassurance of your love, but wait for her to instigate any conversation of this nature.

You are back in contact and that's what really matters right now. It may take some time but eventually, regardless of what she may have been told, she'll see you for who you are, her father who loves her.

Onwards sorry to read about your son delving into drugs, the people that encourage them should go to jail. My s.i.l [estD H] smoked skunk from the moment he got up to the moment he went to sleep. Cocaine too, don't know what else, but definitely brain damaged from it, paranoid. Hence estrangement from my D&GC. Nothing you can do or say can help.

I am desperately trying to find some peace.. answers.. hope.. not sure where to look or who to ask. My kids are 10 and 8 and their mother and I have been divorced since they were very young. My daughter is 10, and she was 4 when we separated. I stayed home with her for the first 2 years of her life, and we used to be extremely close. Now we are not, and it’s crushing my soul and my sadness is starting to affect my marriage. My son and I have a very strong relationship and a close bond, so I feel that my daughter is listening to some hateful things that her mom says about me. I know for a fact that their mom immediately remarried and started encouraging my kids to call her new husband “papa”. Their mom kept them from me for years, robbing them of a relationship with me during their sweet years as small children. I definitely feel like that was robbed from me, as well. Needless to say, that makes me extremely sad and angry. I finally saved enough money to go to mediation and get a visitation agreement in December 2021.

My daughter has snubbed me and ignored me so many times in public, even going as far as running away from me after her basketball game when I was trying to hug her. I have never been mean to my kids, never anything like that. It’s just mind boggling the way she treats me now.

I guess I’m just here to start trying to understand more about what I can do to help my daughter see that I love her and that I am her dad and not whoever her mom has convinced her that I am or am not.

So sorry Whiff, so much pain.

I would personally photograph the email with a smart phone/ iphone ideally because it will date it- and prove it's existence legally in a way that copying won't- and because its going to prove that he set it to disappear.

I hope my GC weren't told I didn't want them, either.

At one point my son was so abusive/angry/downright scary that I told a few people "If I'm found dead it was probably him". I know that's not a very nice thing to say, but I found him very threatening. He knew I saw scared of him and used to taunt me with that.

All I ever gave him was love. it might have been tough love sometimes, but it always wanted the best for him. He's been lied to so badly. Like all our estranged kids.

Hand tremor and pressed the button.

But chooses to stay and I am the bad mom .

My son has destroyed any trust I ever had in him and can never forgive him or my daughter in law.

But I never denied there existence or I have 3 grandson's with them . And never will . Bet they can't say the same. I only hope they don't tell my grandson's I didn't want them or that I am dead.

There is more than enough conflict in the world why must parents have to suffer it from their children .

Hope everyone who has been ill are on the mend and Smiles you have your singing voice back. Hopefully you all have something nice planned for the day. I am meeting up with some of my craft friends for a cuppa this morning. Will be seeing them on Thursday as craft group open again.

Anyway will make sure I read everyday so I can catch up with everyone.

Unfortunately my best friend is in isolation at the moment as she went out with a friend the other day who tested later for Covid. But as solicitors etc get back to work she will be kept busy sorting out her husband's affairs . Which with occupy her mind but will be upsetting.

Take care all. 💐

I don't pop on for a few days to read this thread. But it proves how invaluable it is with all the new posters glad you found it as I have found it a lifeline.

Onwards I copied my son's email out by hand every spelling mistake all the missed punctuation etc. A copy and the original letter are with me with my will and powers of attorney and my solicitor has a copy of both. I never thought about someone taking a photo of it and sending it to my email. My brother and sister in law plus Aggie are coming the weekend I will get him to photo it and send it to me . That way it won't disappear. I was in shock when I received the email and never thought to do that.

Funny how estranged children will gladly accept money while still casting us as villains. When my father in law died he left my husband his number plate and a pair of brass cufflinks. Not a single penny. When my husband died I inherited his estate but he left the number plate to the children. Neither ever wanted it on their cars. I was going to sell it in 2020 then my son decided to give me the boot. Christmas 2021 it had been playing on my mind a still had guardianship of it. So last year decide to sell it. Found a company they valued it and I could have put it on the open market and hoped it fetched the price but I would have to pay fees. Or they would buy it from me at reduced price but no fees and have the money in the bank. As the children would have had a nice sum I did that. I told my daughter and the first thing she said did you have to pay fees so explained how I had done it. She then accepted the money . I enquired how much it would cost for my solicitor to get the money to my son but would be to expensive. So my brother sent an email asking for his bank details and explaining why. That was on a Friday he never replied. It made me very angry he ignored his uncle. So I text him at 4am on the Monday I knew he would be at work. Told him he had until 6pm to give me his details or he lost the money. He sent the details at 9.30 and put thank you . First kind word since his email and returned presents and cards all unopened. And it upset me. Unlike his sister he never ask if I had to pay fees which said loud and clear he didn't care if I did. The number plate was never mine as my husband left it to the children so the money was never mine even though I could do with it.

Since then I have been in contact twice I text to tell him I had a diagnosis and had sent a letter as it's a health matter and read it. Said I still loved him and hoped the family was well . Silence was deafening. Which hurt me I have had problems with my legs all my life but when he was 6 months old and his sister 4 my health got a lot worse and went downhill from there . It will be 35 years next month that happened. I foolishly thought after reading the letter he might have sent a text saying at least you know now mom.

I used to joke with my husband and then the children saying when I die.have an autopsy then you can say that was what wrong with mom.

I contacted him again November to tell him my best friends husband had died. He has know them his whole life and know's how much they mean to me and his dad. Again silence.

It's horrible to realise the child you give unconditional love and support to and bring them up with good values. Turns out not only to be cruel and cowardly but callous as well.

But I know the fault wasn't mine or my husband's or mine since my husband's death. The fault is his and his alone. I put up with a lot of crap from my son and daughter in law because I lived so far away any only saw them 3-4 times a year. I still put up with my daughter in law's snide comments about my daughter when I moved. And why because I loved them.

I will never apologise to my son or daughter in law if he ever got in touch as I have nothing to apologise for. He accused me of things which didn't happen and he assumed I acted in certain ways he doesn't know the lengths I went to too try and help them.

I feel I was put on trial , sentenced and punished and never knew I had committed a crime.

Perhaps it's just my point of view but I don't have anything to apologise to my son for. If anyone breaks contact with you and casts you as a villain it's their fault not yours. Those of us with grandchildren have found they have been used as a weapon against us. Do this that or the other and you don't have contact with them. My son knows I wouldn't play that game so it's zero contact he wants and apart from the 3 texts I will never contact him again .

My daughter's eldest asked one day who the boys where in the pictures so I told him their names but didn't say they are your cousin's as he understands what cousins are as he has 2 my son in laws sisters child who he sees often. They are both older than him.

I read the stories of the new posters with great sadness at all the suffering they have and still cause loving parents. And for why ? Because they can and want to.

Thanks to the support thread we have a place to come . How many tens of thousands of parents are there suffering on their own thinking they are the only ones.

I can talk about my estrangement in real life thanks to Smiles and all the long timers here. Some posters over the years have said they felt ashamed and they are to blame for their estrangement. I don't feel that way nor shown any estranged parent. If your child turns their back on you and decides you are no longer wanted it's their fault and theirs alone not yours.

As been said many times estrangement is a living bereavement. You grieve for the child you knew and love. But as the years go by they are no longer the child you knew and loved. They have become strangers. And that's hard to admit.

What gets to me a woman who abandoned her eldest child to follow her husband and take her child's siblings with them . Then when the marriage broke up abandons her younger children ok they are adults and goes to live with her first child my daughter in law and son which was only supposed to be a temporary basis as I was told. And this year will be the 8th year . While means my 3 grandson's are having to share a room because their grandmother lives with them. So a woman who is dependent on her daughter and son in law is dependent on them for a roof over her head and food on her plate is better thought of than me who is dependent on no one.

She is a nice woman and I got on well with her but she has money she doesn't need to live with them.

Spring20

Just watched the Prince Harry trailers in which he complains his family have made no attempt to reconcile. He was the one who walked away from his family!!!! If he wants to reconcile he should go and see them and apologise for all the media interviews. I suspect it’s only just coming home to roost all that he and his family will miss out on - not least the extended family. Sadly trust has now gone. I can’t see the royal family being willing to welcome them back any time soon. A sorry tale we’re all too familiar with….

How could the RF trust them?

Trust is hard to earn back once it has been shattered by betrayal. Not impossible, but it does need a genuine remorse , a real chnge of heart and the willingness to work at the relationship. I'm not sure the RF can afford to take any risks, though.

I do wonder just how much the heavy reliance on social media has contributed to the ever-increasing divisions in society. All this tribalistm. Race against race, generation against generation, class, sex, gender beliefs, religions, politics, you name it.
We seem to be getting ever more polarised as people focus on the arguments that rage over the internet rather than real social interaction that meeting face to face fosters better. It's so easy to misunderstand or actively despite the faceless keyboard warrior who disagree with you. It's all so black and white when it's just words.

And there are ever more labels bandied about. It's never just, 'oh my mum was a bit self-centred sometimes' or my partner misled me a bit on a certain thing' - It's full on 'she's a narcissist' - 'he gaslights me.' Life by arbitrary rules and soundbytes. No nuance, no measure or degree.

All criticism, no critical thinking. Often following the herd to the extent that those spouting about the evil ways of others have no actual insight into the situation beyond what they 've been fed. Often inaccurately.

Yes, sadly. Thanks Smileless

I'd take nice kind, politely distant - Low Contact over deceitful tricky breadcrumbing false hope, any day. Not that I have the choice of either.

Just watched the Prince Harry trailers in which he complains his family have made no attempt to reconcile. He was the one who walked away from his family!!!! If he wants to reconcile he should go and see them and apologise for all the media interviews. I suspect it’s only just coming home to roost all that he and his family will miss out on - not least the extended family. Sadly trust has now gone. I can’t see the royal family being willing to welcome them back any time soon. A sorry tale we’re all too familiar with….

You've explained it very well Onward and yes, it is cruel, very cruel. Giving false hope and as you say A bit like a cat playing with a mouse.

I think Low Contact can be ok if you're not very close. It could include spending a day together but not often. Or talking but not that often. It can work, if both parties don't mind- or if someone prefers to have less than nothing.

Bread crumbing seems to be like laying an expectation of something that doesn't actually lead anywhere. I think bread crumbing is cruel because the breadcrumber has no intention of following through, unless they have nothing better to do. I don't know if I've explained how I see it well. Breadcrumbing is a suggestion of something that doesn't actually materialise, most of the time.

I see what you mean re low contact Onward

Smileless2012

Bread crumbing is someone dropping you small amounts to keep you interested for example the occasional text, email, card or 'phone call which I think is quite apt when talking about low contact.

Just enough to make you think there's still a possibility of a proper relationship.

Thanks Smileless. Describes it perfectly.

Spring20

So much to catch up on here. So much unkindness, both on the part of EC and those who influence them, whether that's in person or online groups. The problem is as parents we were always playing catch up - we had no idea our EC was accessing unhelpful social media sites until it was too late. No idea 'estrangement' was a phenomena actively encouraged by folk online who knew nothing of our particular family. Had our EC wanted to go very low contact we'd have simply accepted that - like others on here have said, we tend to have been parents who didn't challenge and (for better or worse) avoided conflict. That's why total estrangement seems to us so cruel. And our EC knows this. I sometimes wonder if there'll be studies on this, and as many posters have mentioned the 10 year time span, whether there was something specific around then that was influencing them. I often think the world today is almost unrecognisable from the world we grew up in - although my parents used to say the same thing! But it feels there's something in society that we've woken up to far too late, and lack the skills/knowhow to deal with. Welcome to newbies - you will find comfort and support on this thread, but I'm sorry you are with us. Everyone's experience is different, but there are many common themes in navigating estrangement.
DL - sending good thoughts your way, and in awe of how you are handling a difficult situation.

Those who converted our kids to the QAnon way of thinking, the anti vax thinking convinced them that we were vermin, Transhuman, a threat and a danger to them. It helped them to treat us cruelly, to cut us off believing we deserved nothing less. There are people online that will tell our kids to cut us off. Reddit has a whole thread on it.

They even encourage them to "stay strong" at Christmas and not to get in contact just because old feelings come back.

The cruel behaviour, (whatever the cause), comes from their belief that we deserve it, I think. I hope they will all be awesome parents and never do anything their kids don't like! Given my son's drug use, that's unlikely.

The online groups are so toxic. I found out too little too late. My son was vulnerable because of his MH and because he already resented me for signing his section papers. I only did so because I care. If I try to explain or tell the truth, he said I was "gaslighting " him.

Smileless, I see what you're saying about breadcrumbing- but I think breadcrumbing is crueller than just LC because the person doing it isn't doing it from love at all, but to deliberately confuse and use, to keep someone hanging on and play games with their head. To me, Low contact is less contact but breadcrumbing is pretending to be interested and baiting, but not following through. A bit like a cat playing with a mouse.

Bread crumbing is someone dropping you small amounts to keep you interested for example the occasional text, email, card or 'phone call which I think is quite apt when talking about low contact.

Just enough to make you think there's still a possibility of a proper relationship.

I don’t know anything about Bread-crumbing or the velvet rope, just who makes these things up.

The velvet rope was just tge name that DSL called her personal strategy to deal with the estrangement difficulties that she was dealing with. It worked for her both as a name and as a strategy!

I don't know about "breadcrumbing" but it does sometimes help people to name a strategy that they feel works for them in their circumstances. I suppose "drew a line" is a way of describing the strategy that you used Allsorts.

Whatever strategies people use, it is never easy, is it.

Your's is not an uncommon experience sadly Anne, when a parent will no longer dance to an AC's tune so becomes estranged.

10 years for us and Yogin; so sorry it's the same for you.

We've seen here on GN parents/GP's who worried about saying no' for fear of losing contact with their AC and as result, their GC too. It's the ultimate form of emotional blackmail isn't it, as well as being the ultimate form of cruelty.

It's sad but true Spring that estrangement is sometimes encouraged on line, rather than trying to find a way to resolve problems.

We know what our ES's specific influence was; his wife!!! It's highly unlikely he'll ever see that although he once told his brother our DS, that he'd told her he'd given up everything for her.

So much to catch up on here. So much unkindness, both on the part of EC and those who influence them, whether that's in person or online groups. The problem is as parents we were always playing catch up - we had no idea our EC was accessing unhelpful social media sites until it was too late. No idea 'estrangement' was a phenomena actively encouraged by folk online who knew nothing of our particular family. Had our EC wanted to go very low contact we'd have simply accepted that - like others on here have said, we tend to have been parents who didn't challenge and (for better or worse) avoided conflict. That's why total estrangement seems to us so cruel. And our EC knows this. I sometimes wonder if there'll be studies on this, and as many posters have mentioned the 10 year time span, whether there was something specific around then that was influencing them. I often think the world today is almost unrecognisable from the world we grew up in - although my parents used to say the same thing! But it feels there's something in society that we've woken up to far too late, and lack the skills/knowhow to deal with. Welcome to newbies - you will find comfort and support on this thread, but I'm sorry you are with us. Everyone's experience is different, but there are many common themes in navigating estrangement.
DL - sending good thoughts your way, and in awe of how you are handling a difficult situation.

So sorry Anne. That is the worst part. Losing dear, innocent little children just because their parents despise us. What seeds are they sowing for their own future?

You're right Allsorts. No one has the right to make you feel rubbish. What I haven't said is that this isn't the first estrangement and I was way more accomodating than I should have been seeing as I took into account his Mental Health and also desperately tried not to lose contact because of the GC. Ultimately the cruelty just got worse and I decided not to reply. I'd be surprised if his wife and kids are still with him as he cut them off from everything and everyone.

I don’t know anything about Bread-crumbing or the velvet rope, just who makes these things up. If your children treat you badly, ask them what the problem is, how can you put things right if you dont know, just tell them you won’t put up with it until they speak to you properly. My d started to talk down to me and I never picked her up on it as she would say it was my fault, eventually I drew a line, tried to discuss it lots of times, she wouldn't, saying I must know, I didn’t, realise we probably won’t ever talk again but I’m not prepared to lose myself to her mind games as it made me feel Ill No one has the right to make you feel rubbish.

I am in the same boat myself. 10 years for me. My adult kids abused, controlled and used me for money. When I said no more they stopped me seeing my grandchildren