Interesting watch

It's often referred too as a living bereavement Jenny which I think is very apt, and as has been said has a ripple effect which touches other family members, even if they're not the ones who've been estranged.

the dreaded ultimatum DiamondLily 'me and the children or your parents' when often all that is required is some negotiation and compromise.

That is sad and maybe an example was given when he estranged your DH.

We can't know how the other side really feels without hearing them and we can only hear them if they're willing to say.

I don't know that it is always easier for the AC. Many experience guilt, especially when their parents become frail.

It took me almost 4 decades to realise that those times when I needed a mother I was never going to get the love and support that my peers could expect.

I had to mourn that relationship and mourn the mother I did not have. When I am spending time with my own children, sometimes it pops into my head how different the same scenario would be with my own mother and I find myself wishing I had that bond.

I think a good parent-child relationship matters from both sides. My mother was everything to me for a long time and there was nothing I wouldn't have done to have a good relationship with her. Accepting that will never happen is painful for anyone.

It's taken a long time to like myself and feel comfortable in my own skin. To accept that as a child, I deserved so much more and as an adult I deserved her approval and respect

This is why good communication matters, how can we possibly know how the other side really feels without hearing them

Men or women can be subject to spousal abuse. With men, they are usually emotionally abused, rather than physically, and with women, I would say it's more of a mix.

Spouses can wield influence, and bring their own agendas along with them into the family.

Curiously, DHs eldest son has now been estranged from his son because they had a huge (justified), bust up with their DIL - and she gave their son/her husband the ultimatum - his parents, or her and his kids.

He chose her. Karma, I suppose, but sad anyway.🙁

Really interesting posts. Very complex situation and everyone has a different experience:
When it happened to me, like everyone I was heartbroken. It took a long time to get through it. But 6 years on I’ve come to terms with not having my son in my life. I’ve not tried to contact him in all that time because I know I couldn’t cope with another rejection.

We were both at fault and I accept that. I’m not sure he’d feel the same.
The other point is that it would cause trouble with the rest of the family as they know how much it affected me.
It is like a bereavement and you do learn to live with it.

I think when it’s a mother and child, on the whole the mother will suffer more. The ac can move on with their life.

I don't disagree

I myself have experienced some blame towards my partner

I just thought it interesting it didn't show up in the survey

And we have all seen the reams of stories that go around about MILs too lol

You posted that 26% of the respondents cited their sons marriages in cases of estrangement, but none gave that reason for their daughters VS.

I was merely pointing out that we know from posts here on GN that issues with a daughter's husband, the s.i.l. have been a factor, so much depends on the source ie those who participate in any given survey.

It is also the case where there's estrangement from parents that sons and daughters have been in abusive marriages.

Sorry I'm not sure I understood Smileless can you explain more

and adherence .....

Yes I can the establishment of adherence to rules is a must.

Well there have been cases here on GN where the estrangement has been because of the poster's s.i.l. so of course it very much depends on those who participate in the survey.

In families where there's estrangement both sons and daughters have been in abusive marriages.

Oh quotes don't post the pictures again but they are attached to that comment

It can work Smileless but only if certain "rules" are followed. No more arguments, and absolutely no criticism of each other to the kids.

My mother and I made it work, and, at times, we morphed into being friendly anyway, so it worked for me - but it might not for everyone.

VioletSky

There is a PDF available from Stand Alone called "Hidden Voices" that shares some interesting insights from surveyed estranged family members

As you can see there is a disconnect in reasons given by respondants

Also it's interesting to me that parents sote issues relating to sons marriages in 26% of cases as reason for estrangement but none gave that reason for their daughters.

Daughters often end up in abusive marriages

Raw and painful just about sums it up DiamondLily and yes, the pain does lessen with time even though it never goes away, and sometimes will momentarily knock you sideways for no particular reason.

It's interesting reading about your's and Sara's children's relationships with your own mothers, and makes me think of all those GP's (us included) who could have known our GC if only our respective EAC had allowed us to do so, even though they no longer wanted anything to do with us.

This disconnect where many respondants state emotional abuse as a factor for estrangement may be why in many cases they estrange their own children too.

Although I did give my children that decision I would never personally advise someone to allow their children around a person they know to be emotionally abusive, the same way I would never advise someone to allow their children around anyone who is physically or sexually abusive. I would likely advise others the opposite but I would not stand in judgement should they make the decision to allow their children around someone who was emotionally abusive to them. It's not always that simple, in some cases it may it be the children's other parent who emotionally abused them and emotional abuse is difficult to prove to protect children in all cases.

Yet we are starting to learn now that emotional abuse can have long reaching consequences just as serious as physical and sexual abuse.

Emotional abusiveness can be a pattern of behaviour that runs through families learned from the previous generations until some family members take a stand against it.

A healthy attitude Sara. So often there are family members who lose out because of one members decision to estrange.

I think the disconnect in reasons given is to be expected VS and is in common with other surveys I've seen on the same subject.

Smileless2012

We felt shame too DiamondLily and also fear of being judged, which we have been and sometimes continue to be, but thankfully it's of no importance now, not like it was in the beginning and has not come from those who really know us and our boys.

Shame and fear make it difficult to talk about estrangement, even on a forum like this where we're all anonymous.

Yeah, I take your view really - those that really know us understand where the faults are with our situation..

Judgements from others, who don't know us, pass me by.

It's a bit like when I walked out on my 30 year marriage to start again - some that didn't know me very well condemned what I'd done, those that knew me understood the reasons.

I think in the beginning any forced estrangement is raw and painful - but, as time passes, it lessens and you come to terms with not being able to change the behaviour of others.

Life, of course, goes on - and plenty of joy can be got from it.😉

Sara1954

DiamondLily
My mother has proven a better grandmother than mother.
She is still close to my oldest daughter, she hasn’t got much interest in my younger ones, but they have never been especially fond of her, my husband has always kept contact, and usually dragged them along with him.
My brothers children, almost a generation younger than my oldest, she appears to adore, and from what I hear, they are very fond of her.

Yes, it's strange. If I could have picked a granny/great granny for my kids/grandkids, I'd have picked her.

My kids adored her until the day she died, and they still miss her.. They still don't know what I really thought of my mother, and they never will. Their memories are golden, as it should be.

Weird though. 😗

Not really, I don’t mind any of it, my daughter has always been her favourite, and she’s a good granddaughter, drives a long way once a month to take her shopping, and sort things out for her.
None of it affects me in any way, I’ve lost my relationship with my brother and his wife, which is a bit sad, but I accept they’re annoyed with me, and sadly I’ve had no relationship with my lovely nieces and nephews.
But overall, would I go back and do things differently?
No.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202303/medium-911693-screenshot-20230325-142225-drive.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202303/medium-492620-screenshot-20230325-141856-drive.jpg

There is a PDF available from Stand Alone called "Hidden Voices" that shares some interesting insights from surveyed estranged family members

As you can see there is a disconnect in reasons given by respondants

That must be bitter sweet Sara.

We felt shame too DiamondLily and also fear of being judged, which we have been and sometimes continue to be, but thankfully it's of no importance now, not like it was in the beginning and has not come from those who really know us and our boys.

Shame and fear make it difficult to talk about estrangement, even on a forum like this where we're all anonymous.

DiamondLily
My mother has proven a better grandmother than mother.
She is still close to my oldest daughter, she hasn’t got much interest in my younger ones, but they have never been especially fond of her, my husband has always kept contact, and usually dragged them along with him.
My brothers children, almost a generation younger than my oldest, she appears to adore, and from what I hear, they are very fond of her.

"I also think you’re right, some relationships never existed, we are lucky we have people in our lives who find us lovable"

I think you're right Sara - being estranged (unwillingly), can bring a sense of rejection.

I've never felt like a victim, even with my (very difficult, to say the least), Mother.....as an adult I chose to keep contact going, and I'm glad I did. She was a wonderful grandmother.👍

My husband said that his ACs rejection of him bought a sense of "shame" - he felt that it must have been a failure of his parenting that had ended up with producing such selfish individuals.

As I said though - the shame is all theirs and they will, sooner or later, have to live with the consequences of that selfishness.. Tough for them.🙄

I think friends and other loving family members around is vitally important. My friends tend to be people I've been friends with for over 50 years - we know each other inside out. It all keeps our show on the road.

DH and I are blessed in many ways - we have each other and are surrounded with nice people. The rest must do as they wish, to be honest.😗

we are lucky we have people in our lives who find us lovable absolutely, otherwise we'd spend the rest of our lives feeling that we aren't, that we deserved to be treated the way we were or deserve to be treated the way we are.

I can't imagine what that must have been like JaneJudge, just as I can't imagine how a mother can behave that way. Coldness and emotional cruelty is abuse, there are no physical scars but just because scars can't be seen, doesn't mean they are any less real.

Many people whose lives have been affected by estrangement self reflect, maybe the majority do. Some spend a life time with ifs, buts and if only's which can and for some does prevent them from moving on and rebuilding their lives

Being victimised is being singled out for cruel and/or unjust treatment which is something EP's and EAC can attest too. In that sense you will always be a victim as you cannot go back in time and change the past.

For me, seeing oneself as more than a victim, as a survivor, aids healing and allows for growth.

JaneJudge
I also think you’re right, some relationships never existed, we are lucky we have people in our lives who find us lovable