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Estrangement

Friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life

(1001 Posts)
Smileless2012 Wed 26-Jul-23 10:56:25

I've been trying to think of something different to say in the OP for this new support thread but was reminded of the old adage 'if it aint broke, don't try to fix it'.

The longevity and success of the support thread speaks for itself, so we just need to keep doing what we do which is being there for one another and giving a warm welcome to anyone new who comes along.

Smileless2012 Sun 18-Feb-24 14:44:46

That certainly is a step in the right direction Ladysu smile.

Understanding that there are topics best avoided is a good thing as is being able to recognise what those topics are. I think you might have something there, in him wanting his relationship with you but not as close as it used to be.

It does sound as if he feels that you do see him as a replacement for your partner in terms of emotional and practical support, which he can never be and it's good that you can see this is something you need to accept.

Our relationships with our children do change as they go through various stages in their lives, and no more so than when they get married and become parents themselves. Try not to see this as being a superficial relationship, but see it as different to how it used to be.

There's time for you to decide what for you is and is not acceptable, and there's time for him to think about this too. What he envisages may be the ideal scenario now, may change as it may change for you too.

You speak to him and see him once a week at the moment, and even if a weekly 'phone call will still be doable once the baby arrives, I doubt a weekly visit will be too, especially if he comes on his own.

As far as neither of them wanting to spend the amount of time with you that you would like, this is where managing our expectations comes into play. I understand this isn't something you've ever prepared yourself for, but you have time to begin the process now.

Feeling lost is natural when you lose someone you love suddenly and unexpectedly, and it's only been just over a year. Still early days.

Hopefully you'll be settling into your new home where you'll meet new people and may find different opportunities opening up, which will help in part to fill your time and thoughts.

As new parents, any time spent he and hopefully eventually they spend time with you will be to maintain that relationship rather than offering practical help/doing things for you.

Smileless2012 Sun 18-Feb-24 14:46:59

Just seen from a post you were making while I was typing mine that you got a couple of smiles from him Ladysu. Reading that made me smile too smile.

SingcoTime Sun 18-Feb-24 15:52:16

@Smileless, I afraid there are no suggestions I can ever take from you. I'm not being rude; it's just that I have read enough of your posts to understand that you aren't someone I would ever take advice from. I can name or not name anyone I choose. It would be better for you to accept that it isn't in your control :-).

@Whiff, I am not assassinating anyone's character and your son and DIL have nothing to do with LadySuisei's. You said an awful thing about the relationship of a mother and child that you have never met. Your comment pretended to know her son's head and heart. You've no idea what he enjoys. You have no idea that he hates his mother--and please do not claim to not have suggested it. There is no way to spin "enjoying torturing". Your life's hardships aren't an excuse to say awful things to parents about their children. It was mean and uncalled for. It was purely divisive.

@ Ladysuisei

The good news is that you see that the abusive behaviour of your son definitely has a trigger. This is great because you were able to figure out that by not getting into heavy subjects, visits and communications can be peaceful. It's okay that he doesn't want to delve into stressful conversations as he is focusing on his impending fatherhood. His attentions and energy need to shift right now and you should be proud of him for understanding his own boundaries. It's important to understand that what he wants from your relationship is equally as important as what you want. It doesn't make mean or wrong or selfish to not live up to your expectations of a what your relationship would be. We are all different. Your son is his own person, not merely an extension of you. He is allowed to have his feelings without vilification. He has not abandoned you. He has shown he can be civil when his boundaries are respected. This is all positive! I am happy for you.

Smileless2012 Sun 18-Feb-24 16:20:38

I knew of course that you reference to "hateful strangers" on this thread has no basis in fact SingcoTime which is why you're unable to substantiate your slur with any examples.

It's good to have that confirmed though.

SingcoTime Sun 18-Feb-24 16:38:21

Smileless2012

I knew of course that you reference to "hateful strangers" on this thread has no basis in fact SingcoTime which is why you're unable to substantiate your slur with any examples.

It's good to have that confirmed though.

I'm sorry Smileless. You are under the impression that you are someone I have to prove anything to. You aren't. Have a happy Sunday.

Smileless2012 Sun 18-Feb-24 16:48:43

No not just to me SingcoTime to all those who post here who your insult may or may not have been directed too. You could be insulting anyone couldn't you, which no doubt is why it was worded the way it was, in the vain hope perhaps that you wouldn't be challenged.

DiamondLily Sun 18-Feb-24 16:52:49

Ladysuisei

@DiamondLily do you mind me asking why your children needed to be protected from MiL ? I do have an ongoing worry that my DIL , despite there being no issue any more certainly not from me , she will continue to say the GS needs protection from me ! I had a perfectly good morning with my AS this morning, if a little superficial xx

No, I don’t mind you asking. First of all, she didn’t want to mix with “my type” because I worked in a bank. 🙄

Then she didn’t want to know my daughter because she’d had her fortune told and my DD was supposed to be a boy…..don’t ask me lol…she was as mad as a box of frogs.🙄

There were other things - she couldn’t stop her lunacy.

But, after warnings, the final straw was when she told my 4 year old and 3 year old that their Dad (my ex), wasn’t their real Dad, and that it was her late DH (my ex FIL and the kids grandad) that was their real dad…not true, but I walked away, as did my ex.

That was her lot. She never saw her GCs until they were adults, and they didn’t want to know her by then.

I wasn’t willing to have the kids fed her rubbish.

Never regretted it. 👍

DiamondLily Sun 18-Feb-24 16:55:37

Smileless2012

I knew of course that you reference to "hateful strangers" on this thread has no basis in fact SingcoTime which is why you're unable to substantiate your slur with any examples.

It's good to have that confirmed though.

Well, of course she can’t lol 🙄

ladysu - glad the meeting went well. 💐

Madgran77 Sun 18-Feb-24 17:01:51

Ladysuisei

@madgran I didn’t need your guidance today I kept calm and stayed away from difficult subjects ! This isn’t a long term strategy because it just avoids proper communication but in terms of today’s visit , well I think I handled him pretty well xx

Well done Ladysue. The purpose is to calm things down enough to move beyond the anger and angst so that it gets to a point where more meaningful and balanced conversations can take place. It takes time but if you keep going it might work for you. I hope so.

Whiff Sun 18-Feb-24 17:04:41

Smiles yet again we have blow ins who rent their spleen at us but they aren't worth our time. The longevity of this support thread shows how much it's needed. And because of it estrangement is no longer a taboo subject. We all know here how many people read this thread but don't feel they can post openly. I couldn't that's why I reached out to you via PM . You and most of us here have had PMs from people who don't feel they can post but we help them the best way we can. And knowing they can reach out anytime and be heard. 💐

Ladysuisei Sun 18-Feb-24 17:10:00

Smileless2012

That certainly is a step in the right direction Ladysu smile.

Understanding that there are topics best avoided is a good thing as is being able to recognise what those topics are. I think you might have something there, in him wanting his relationship with you but not as close as it used to be.

It does sound as if he feels that you do see him as a replacement for your partner in terms of emotional and practical support, which he can never be and it's good that you can see this is something you need to accept.

Our relationships with our children do change as they go through various stages in their lives, and no more so than when they get married and become parents themselves. Try not to see this as being a superficial relationship, but see it as different to how it used to be.

There's time for you to decide what for you is and is not acceptable, and there's time for him to think about this too. What he envisages may be the ideal scenario now, may change as it may change for you too.

You speak to him and see him once a week at the moment, and even if a weekly 'phone call will still be doable once the baby arrives, I doubt a weekly visit will be too, especially if he comes on his own.

As far as neither of them wanting to spend the amount of time with you that you would like, this is where managing our expectations comes into play. I understand this isn't something you've ever prepared yourself for, but you have time to begin the process now.

Feeling lost is natural when you lose someone you love suddenly and unexpectedly, and it's only been just over a year. Still early days.

Hopefully you'll be settling into your new home where you'll meet new people and may find different opportunities opening up, which will help in part to fill your time and thoughts.

As new parents, any time spent he and hopefully eventually they spend time with you will be to maintain that relationship rather than offering practical help/doing things for you.

@Smiles yes an interesting morning. I’m hoping that this might be a way to narrowly escape estrangement.
I did give him the opportunity to have a more meaningful conversation which he decided, so onto plan B . Plan B needs a bit of thought , because we’re used to falling back into our usual conversations I think .
I believe we can eventually become as close as we were just in a different way . It’s like you’ve said there , trying to see our relationship evolving rather than giving him the impression that I want a replacement partner figure . This might be what’s annoying his wife I don’t know . She can be a bit spoiled and doesn’t like to share mind , so this is why I don’t get a hug . Hopefully in time I will do because I’m a tactile person and I miss the closeness . I’m used to hugging his wife too mind , not just my son . I always told her I love her and to look after herself and my boy . Maybe one day …….

I have always accepted the change in our relationship once he got married, it’s just that this baby coupled with my loss has triggered some strange reactions in my DIL . I don’t know why she resents me so much after all I’ve lost the most important person in my life . I will always be lost without him , he was an amazing person. Beautiful inside and outside, practical, funny , kind , sexy , and I love him immensely. I have to accept he’s gone and my son will never take his place , not really . I have been desperately looking for this void to be filled and I must accept it won’t be , ever .
I think it’s more important to keep this relationship going rather than say , setting an arbitrary amount of time for us seeing each other , or else ? Seeing them all once a week would be great going forward I think .
Of course I don’t know what will be happening when he’s off for a month after the baby is born - ideally we would meet the baby during this time after all I fully expect his wife’s mother to be there all the time . I am hoping my son will rethink and allow me this relationship with his son , after all there’s no reason to deny me this other than spite . If we stay on this better footing then I think it will be very hard to justify no contact with the child .
I need to work on managing my expectations now you are right . Failing to do this will make life much worse and actually I think this might be where relationships in general can go wrong. Mind you , from your bitter experience, sometimes things just go wrong without you even noticing. I’m sure I’ve taken my eye off the ball - I need to constantly be vigilant if I’m successful in keeping this going .
I see this today as being pretty successful. At least my son wasn’t angry, now my next task will be ( hopefully) moving , trying my very best to settle and to try to accept life as it now is .
You are right in saying that any time he and hopefully they spend with me in the future will be keeping the relationship going rather than for offering emotional help . I do believe that if we keep this going , my son will offer practical help in the fullness of time . I would only ask him when absolutely necessary. The flat will be pretty low maintenance, there’s no gardening to be done thankfully , but my issue is driving . I stopped quite a few years ago and I don’t know if I have the confidence to start again.

Instead of jumping ahead , I need to really focus my mind on the job in hand which is to try to rebuild things then keep them going .

Let’s hope that we have a repeat performance next week shall we !
flowers

Ladysuisei Sun 18-Feb-24 17:12:19

@Smiles yes a couple of smiles - hopefully this is good news . I feel like crying!
flowers

DiamondLily Sun 18-Feb-24 17:14:25

Ladysuisei

@smiles yes things were not abusive, showing me that all is not lost . He actually smiled at me a few times which I’ve not had for a while !!
Sadly no hug though despite me requesting one . Possibly too early.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not going to tolerate a superficial totally lacking in warmth relationship for ever but it’s a start . If I don’t push him at least we still get on . There were no threats .
What is it with us MILs btw ? This is the relationship that seems to cause the most issues and I dont understand why ? xx

I think, sometimes, there’s a conflict between MILs and DILs - but I’ve never experienced it with my DIL.

I guess some get into a competition over the son/husband. Never a good idea.

My DIL was the “reason” my DS emigrated (in the nicest possible way lol)…he fell in love with an American and has lived over there for 14 years. He’s happy, she’s happy, everyone’s happy - so I just welcome him home once a year, and then keep the sadness to myself when he goes back. 😗

I certainly had issues with my ex MIL, but she was nuts - nothing to do with being my MIL.😉

Ladysuisei Sun 18-Feb-24 17:24:26

@DiamondLiliy ah right I understand 😂
I was concerned actually that my DIL is always going to dislike me or not want to see me . We’ve not fallen out , and actually so long as the child is healthy and happy I don’t mind a boy or a girl ! He happens to be a boy when he arrives.

Oh no I used to work ina bank - that’s me finished as well then !

More seriously, I am so worried that my DIL might use the horrible MIL label to try to prevent me seeing my GS . Actually it was my son who delivered the news but we’ve had a much better day today . So I feel there might be hope .

I’m trying as hard as I can not to fit the horrible MIL stereotype and up until recently we had , I thought , a good relationship. Maybe once the baby’s here , less stress will be flying about and I will get to see him . I hope so .

Gosh she does sound completely barmy actually, so I think you made the correct decision! confused

Ladysuisei Sun 18-Feb-24 17:31:18

@DiamondLily yes I guessed this MIL / DIL is to do with competition for the son’s affections. In fact my DiL banned my son from hugging me citing protection of his body autonomy 🙄 then she went on to say if I thought I’d get hold of HER baby i!d have another thing coming . This has upset me enormously because her mother believes this issue is my fault and her daughter is blameless . I only want a relationship with my GS not steal him ( she told me this too ) . I hope it’s just hormones .

That’s sad the way you describe your son going back . You must miss him terribly. These DILs have a lot to answer for 😔

Ladysuisei Sun 18-Feb-24 17:36:20

@madgran yes today was a bit of an oasis of calm . It reminded me of how we used to sit and chat together. I’m happy to overlook the last few months of awfulness in order to make our relationship work . Once me and my son get back on track , I’m really hoping his wife will follow suit ( I’ve not fallen out with my DIL ) and I am allowed a relationship with my GS . I won’t be able to take my eye of the ball mind . Thank you for your valuable advice xxx

Ladysuisei Sun 18-Feb-24 17:41:40

@whiff I’m surprised to see such venomous posts on the friendship post . Anything but friendly. Previously this was a lovely safe space where I felt able to post my true feelings about estrangement and my terror at impending estrangement. Until I joined here I didn’t realise just how common it is and just how easily people ( parents and GPs) are discarded because they lose their usefulness. I hope it goes back to normal flowersreally soon.

SingcoTime Sun 18-Feb-24 17:44:01

Smileless2012

No not just to me SingcoTime to all those who post here who your insult may or may not have been directed too. You could be insulting anyone couldn't you, which no doubt is why it was worded the way it was, in the vain hope perhaps that you wouldn't be challenged.

You're right. I don't have to prove anything to anyone, not just you. How you feel about my message doesn't matter to me. I can't make that any plainer. Your "challenge" doesn't matter enough to me to avoid it. It's simply inconsequential.

SingcoTime Sun 18-Feb-24 17:51:51

Ladysuisei

@madgran yes today was a bit of an oasis of calm . It reminded me of how we used to sit and chat together. I’m happy to overlook the last few months of awfulness in order to make our relationship work . Once me and my son get back on track , I’m really hoping his wife will follow suit ( I’ve not fallen out with my DIL ) and I am allowed a relationship with my GS . I won’t be able to take my eye of the ball mind . Thank you for your valuable advice xxx

I am glad you are able to see the positive results of modified behaviour. He clearly still loves his mum very much, is not an evil person who "enjoys torturing" his own mum. His wife will have to devote her energy to her impending motherhood so it is best that any expectations of her be tempered with that reality. Your son plans to see you again next week. This is a great thing. The road to a relationship with your grandchild is through a positive relationship with both parents. So continue to focus on your relationship with your son. Estrangement is definitely not an inevitability here, as evidenced by this positive masters encounter.

Madgran77 Sun 18-Feb-24 18:00:11

Instead of jumping ahead , I need to really focus my mind on the job in hand which is to try to rebuild things then keep them going

Spot on Ladysue. Over time more can be addressed. One thing I will say ...IF at some point he introduces something upsetting or becomes angry in the next few weeks do try hard to maintain the calm strategy, not engaging in the angst, just listening etc. It's REALLY important in this long term strategy/aim of getting to a point where wider conversations can take place, to not let things slip back into the confrontational and painful zone! I have seen this work for others; it can work for you too [ flowers]

SingcoTime Sun 18-Feb-24 18:03:34

last sentence should read "...positive latest encounter." Silly autocorrect.

Ladysuisei Sun 18-Feb-24 18:47:41

@madgran
I can see the benefits of this calm approach and I’m going to continue with it . I believe that if I avoid certain trigger subjects , my son is less likely to get angry. In fact today he smiled , twice !
I know I’m playing the long game here . This is a situation that needs to be carefully managed.
My aim is avoidance of being estranged and hopefully getting back on track with my DiL . Of course I’d love a relationship with my GS but I cannot guarantee this at the moment. That’s why asking this question is on the banned list of subjects. I will need to wait until he’s here I think then wait . It will be excruciating but in order to succeed with this I will need to be calm and patient- it’s very hard , but I feel a bit of optimism thanks . thanks

Ladysuisei Sun 18-Feb-24 18:53:09

@SingoTime
No I don’t think estrangement is inevitable, but I can’t afford to take my eye off the ball .
I don’t understand what’s going on with my DIL , maybe just a difficult pregnancy I don’t know . I ask after her and I text her mum with good wishes for her etc . She knows that I’m so absolutely sorry about what happened in August but nobody can change the past . My son has stopped mentioning this actually so with time and the safe arrival of the baby I’m hoping things may change . I’m happy to be patient because I’ve got no choice really .

Otter99 Sun 18-Feb-24 19:10:44

ladyIf I can just offer some kind advice from my perspective. I am AC estranged from my mother. She has no interest in having a relationship with me, only with her GC. that is clearly off the menu as I obviously can't allow anyone who doesn't wish to be in my life to be in theirs (among various other reasons). What your saying about concentrating on your relationship with your son is spot on. For what it's worth that's where your focus should lie and then in time perhaps the relationship with DIL and GC will come too.

Hilltop Sun 18-Feb-24 19:23:10

Lady's, as you have stopped driving please don't rely on your son or daughter in law to take you about. Get taxis or the bus. I have an ES and also a loving daughter who lives nearby. But she has a family and a job, so although she does help me l know her family should come first.
I am careful not to intrude and pay for jobs to be done for my house and garden. They need their own time and space. I'm sure they have other things to do in life and don't want me bothering them with this and that all the time.
They are so very welcoming and helpful when l really need them.
I hope you repair the relationship with your son, estrangement for whatever reason is very sad.
I read this (usually) friendly thread and have found it helpful over the years, so please, keep up the good work.

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