Help Please! Grandchild being taken to live abroad

Yes, good post Cold that is exactly the situation as I understand it.
In this case it’s very difficult because mother is unhappy here, but a very involved father doesn’t want to lose his child for the majority of the time. Unfortunately there are no winners in these situations and the one who suffers most is the child.
I certainly don’t read Tatti as being interfering, she’s simply trying to help her son with information about the situation.
I do wonder if the courts would give mother permission to take the little one abroad to live but give father visitation rights and keep his shared custody of his daughter. I don’t know this, I’m wondering because the little girl is so young. But they may not, and mother would then have to sort out her living arrangements and stay here until the little girl is older. As I said, whatever happens, there are no winners here.

Your son needs to get specialist advice. He can take steps to prevent his child leaving the country without his permission.

Under the Hague convention - it can be regarded a parental abduction if a child it removed from their habitual country of residence without the other parent's permission. It is one of the risks of having children in a different country, that you may not be able to leave with the kids if the relationship breaks down.

I know several women who have suffered the consequences of this, Some have had to stay put until the kids were older others have managed to negotiate custody arrangements that were legally binding in both countries.

One friend of mine had decided to do what your DIL is considering by returning to the US with the child after her marriage broke down in Sweden to have family support. She took legal advice in both countries and the conclusions were identical - that removing the child from their country of residence (Sweden) and returning to the US would be regarded as parental abduction and could result in her being arrested and losing custody. The lawyers recommended a custody agreement to be registered with the courts in both countries. The child moved to the US but spent 3-4 months a year in Sweden,

Tatti I wonder have you ever though that somewhere in Italy there are GPs hoping their GD will return? I wonder if embracing your GDs heritage might help her mother adjust? If you stepped back acknowledged it might happen, looked at ways of maintaining contact, perhaps learned Italian (just in case and so you can communicate with the other GPs). Perhaps her mum might start to settle more, maybe she's just a bit lost and homesick and looking for support.

I've have just read through the posts and it's quite clear what's been happening. Your son needs specialist legal advice to negotiate some sort of access. I imagine that it may be possible to object to removal of the child to another country but you won't know until you get professional help. I hope things settle down soon.

Paddyann54 - your comments are more suited to Twitter than this forum, which I expected to offer adult advice without any nastiness. This is my first ever post (and what a sad post!) Thank you to everybody else who has been genuinely helpful.

The Facts (again)
The first time she left she did not complete the access mediation and made it very difficult for my son to see his daughter. He had a breakdown shortly after this and lost his business (I didn't mention this, but didn't think I needed to)

When she returned with my GD she said it was because it was impossible to live with her family, for many reasons that I won't go into. She asked to move in with me and I gladly said yes. That was with 3 days notice.

I housed her, my son and GD - giving them space, money, helping to find her part time work, nursery, playgroups, navigating services and generally being welcoming and supportive. I wanted them all to stay together and made sure I did everything to help them achieve it.

Sadly the relationship has not worked. She has not given my son any options and is going to Italy for good. The problem my family face now is how to ensure access when it didn't happen first time around.

That's it. Nobody is a hostage, I know I am Grandmother and not the parent (really?!), I am supporting my son and trying to help him navigate access that sticks this time and ensure that the whole family can continue to support this adorable innocent child caught up in a horrible situation. Wherever she lives.

Maybe I rattled off the post without making myself clear but I am upset and sensitive enough at the moment without having justify myself to you. I wont read any of your posts so please don't bother responding. I can't see a 'block' option but would certainly use it on you.

Again - thank you so much to everybody else.
x

I should have read before posting ,of course I meant UN happy with your son.Are you seriously expecting her to stay in a country she's not happy in with a man she's not happy with and a critical MIL .? Keeping her hostage isn't a good idea,I'm sure your son could travel like many do to see family ,its THEIR child not yours .Its up to them to sort it out

You don't seem interfering to me Tatti, you want the best for all concerned, and want to know how best to support your son in this difficult situation.

Having experienced no contact with your own father growing up, it's understandable that you don't want the same for your GD.

Oh and well done for using an emoji .

Again thank you all, so useful (and so sorry Nanatoone). The first time the was preparing to go they started mediation but she just stopped attending and my son found there was very little he could do. This is why I want them to get it right this time, especially as we are all still living together. I probably seem interfering but having taken a complete backseat last time and it failed I just want them to get it right for my GD.
I'm also coming from experience as I had no contact with my father growing up - my Mother's decision - and it was wrong.
I know Italy is better than Australia (except for the language challanges!) but when we went last time it was made difficult to see her so it might as well have been . Look at me with an emoji!!

I’d like to add that it isn’t always mothers who are difficult.

and apologise
And I apologise for misreading it

Sensible post, ilovecheese

I did read the OP as Tatti wanting to try to gain custody of her grandchild and apologise, but it wasn't very clear at first.

Really, this is up to the parents to sort out and both should try to remain calm for the sake of the child. It sounds as if both are good parents and it's sad if the relationship has not worked out.
If the mother is desperately unhappy then that will not be good for the little girl.

No, Italy is not 10,000 away and I hope you can maintain contact if your DIL decides to go Tatti.

If your son and daughter in law can remain civil to each other, would it be so bad if your granddaughter went to live in Italy with her mother. If your daughter in law feels that you and your son are "ganging up" against her, perhaps if you stepped back and left it up to the two parents to sort something out just between the two of them, your daughter in law might feel a bit more willing to compromise. Italy is not the other side of the world.

I would point out that you can spend a fortune on lawyers trying to get a court order enforced and still fail. After all what would you have done to the mother of your GC to force her to comply? I agree it is very difficult for fathers and I think sometimes it is the conflict that the mother wants. As the children get older their wishes become more important.

Sorry mother nor month. Annoyance made me fail to check.

Your son needs to see a lawyer asap. Don’t trust anything the mother says. We were in the same position (not the living abroad bit) and it has cost a fortune and the month we continues to break the court order as and when she pleases. Soon, I think that will be dealt with by the courts but I am saying that it is never going to easy or cheap. There are so many man who couldn’t care less but even when a man does he seems to have few rights (or is allowed to exert them). I’m sorry to sound negative but it’s been years of it for us and it is very wearing and can be very damaging for the children. Please hope the mother will see reason.

It is clear your son needs to talk to a lawyer, if that if what he wants.

Please support your son

Tatti do be careful, even with very expensive legal advice and a court order the child's mother could still just decide to break the law and go. You would then be faced with having to pay out more to find the child and get a legal decision in Italy. Your best hope of anything is to encourage both of them to go to mediation and agree something which will be in the best interests of the child. It may be that you will only see her occasionally until she is older. A compromise and a friendly agreement is much better than trying to use the law which only sets up anger and opposition. And then there is the cost which can be massive. Good luck I hope the parents can both step back and agree something for your DGD's sake.

You can search the Law Society site for solicitors by area of expertise and location

solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/

You should be able to find a firm who has a family law practice in your area advertising on the internet Tatti. I suggest that your son writes down any questions he has prior to the first consultation so he doesn't forget to ask anything, and it would be helpful if you went with him so between you you'll be able to remember everything he's told.

Thank you all again. She doesn't want to be with my son either in UK or Italy anymore, that's clear. He is willing for the sake of his daughter to try but she isn't. He would love custody but is practical and knows he probably wouldn't get it, so would settle for decent access. Also he wants to have a good relationship going forward so doesn't want a fight.
Having a baby so soon was always going to be a minefield - and the versions vary here (she says he agreed, he says they wanted a puppy!). Either way he is an excellent Dad and she has been a loving Mother - although some of her decisions are difficult to agree with (yesterday's lunch was doughnut followed by ice-cream) but I expect that's normal!
When my son started custody agreements the first time she left (unchallenged at the airport) without it being finalised but he trusted her - this time I hope he doesn't as she made it so difficult when we visited; not being available and changing plans. She would not agree to us bringing her to UK for a visit but that's something he feels strongly about now.
It looks like we need legal advice and probably have to pay.
How do you choose a family lawyer if you don't know anybody who has needed one before?

Does B want to split as she's unhappy here?

It's a huge thing isn't it having a baby, especially so quickly into a new relationship, it changes you as a person. Maybe she's feeling homesick after so long or she feels life in Italy will be better or maybe just wants to be around her own family a bit.

Would your son consider going with her to Italy if that's the problem?

Hello Tatti. You say your son previously took legal advice but the child's mother left without any custody arrangement which sounds rather odd.

He needs to ensure that he has legal equal parental rights which would then result in him having to give permission for her to take the child abroad. However, as BlueBelle has said, even with parental rights it isn't always "cut and dried" but as the child has been living with both parents, that will hopefully work in his favour.

It's imperative that your son gets legal advice asap and takes the necessary action to have his parental rights legally stated. He needs to engage a family solicitor whose expertise is in this area. The first consultation may be FOC but after that fees will need to be paid as legal aid has been virtually done away with.

The child has two parents paddyann, and the child's mother's relationship with the OP's son has been bad "for a long time". She hasn't said she's wanting custody for herself, she's asking for information for her son.

Having previously taken the child to her family and returned because "it was so awful", doesn't come across to me that the child will be better off with the mother and her family.

It is unlikely that your son would get full custody. If the mother is forced to stay here she will be miserable and resentful and could make visitation difficult, after hefty legal fees she may be allowed to leave anyway as she has a support system in Italy. Having a baby after a six-week relationship was unlikely to work.

It may be better to spend any spare money on visitation and bringing the child here for holidays, which will become easier as it gets older. When older the child may decide to live here.

Fighting the mother will only make the child unhappy and an unhappy mother can turn a child against the father's family.

It is heartbreaking but many grandparents maintain a long-distance relationship with their grandchildren.

I think I've managed to confuse everybody! I should have been calmer when I wrote it sorry! My son does not want to split - but B does, she wants to take the child to Italy permanently where her parents live. He wants them to move in together here in UK (just the three of them - they lived together before), but she doesn't want to. He would settle for decent access but from experience once she leaves she makes access difficult.
My GD is settled here in nursery and has people who love her - in Italy it is far more complicated family wise and she will be quite isolated.
I have tried to support B and as I say they have all been living with me rent free so that they can save but (in my opinion) she is sabotaging everything we offer so that she can go back. Incidentally she hasn't lived in Italy for 9 years so she was already settled in UK when they met.
By the way - she has already taken my GD out of the country without permission - luckily that time she came back. He was warned about this, nobody asked for proof of permission any step of the way even though the GD has a UK passport and the Mother doesn't.
Thank you for your replies. I haven't got to grips with the emojis and acronyms yet!

Thank you so much Shelflife. I'm so pleased to have found this site!