Is “ No Contact “ abuse ?

@ Ladysuisei. You say the whole
Thing isn’t insurmountable but your son says otherwise. That makes it so. By saying he’s being unreasonable nothing has happened that can’t be forgiven you’re invalidating his feelings on the subject , he is telling it is insurmountable to him. Now - that may not be what you want to hear , and it may not be forever how he feels, but for this moment that’s what it is. It does lend itself to wonder if over the years there have been other instances where you have decided everything was fine and he had been saying otherwise and you simply weren’t paying attention. Perhaps some self reflection would be useful. While I’m sure it’s very hurtful to be told you won’t be meeting your grandchild you seem to feel your son being willing to continue contact with you within the baby is a form of “abuse” - which while it’s not pleasant for you doesn’t abuse make, and could also be seen by your son as you’re only caring about grandchild, since continued contact with just him isn’t enough for you. When you do speak with your son I would drop all mentio. Of , asking about seeing begging for contact with said grandchild and simply focus on your broken relationship with your son. That may take time, especially as he says there are insurmountable issues but so long as you’re still in contact I would focus my energy there.

Additionally you’ve repeatedly said “he’d never have gotten away with this if stepfather was alive”. Meaning what? Your partner would have …. Bullied your son into acting differently?
Shamed? Forced ? That doesn’t sound as if this was a healthy adult relationship to start there may have already been issues brewing

The examples I gave in my last post are often experienced in situations of no contact User, leading up to the no contact and particularly with telling lies to others to damage further relationships.

Insults, humiliation and ridicule are examples of verbal abuse.

woodenspoon

There’s a lot from this poster recently. On several threads.

Is that relevant to this discussion? What is your point?

Smileless2012

The examples I gave in my last post are often experienced in situations of no contact User, leading up to the no contact and particularly with telling lies to others to damage further relationships.

Insults, humiliation and ridicule are examples of verbal abuse.

Well if it’s leading up the no contact then the estrangement would be a relief from the abuse then wouldn’t it ? Not abuse itself. As for telling others one is no contact what should those estranged do? Simply pretend to still want and have a relationship with someone to keep up appearances? The reality is estrangement / no contact hurts but calling it abuse implies a sense of entitlement to having contact in the first place

I disagree that experiencing no contact as abuse is akin to a sense of entitlement to having contact Grams2five.

No contact/estrangement doesn't just hurt, it's devastating.

I've been wondering what point was being made by that comment too Madgran.

"No contact/estrangement doesn't just hurt, it's devastating." It is devastating on both sides, certainly.

That doesn't make it abuse. Hurtful and abusive are different. You would want for people to maintain relationships they don't want or desire to spare someone's feelings? That seems cruel to me.

You can't force a person to want a relationship, and you can't force them to maintain one. It's bonkers to me that anyone thinks otherwise. That kind of thinking keeps people in abusive situations.

Adult children are full human beings with wants and desires, including desires around who is in their life. Force it and it will die. I certainly wouldn't maintain a relationship where someone was trying to control me in such a way.

I won't argue the point anymore because we can't agree on the basic facts of an adults right to choose their relationships.

"we can't agree on the basic facts of an adults right to choose their relationships" really!!! Have I said that, adults don't have the right to choose their relationships? No, I haven't but I agree that there's no point in discussing this with you any further User.

@Grams2five

I didn’t think I needed to explain- but when my partner was alive my son was respectful towards me . I dont understand why this has changed. The relationship was perfectly healthy! I believe that having a father figure was good for my AS , since he died my son doesn’t seem to have coped . Now I’ve asked him ( quite a few times ) if he wants to talk about this . The bereavement was shocking - only happened in January 2023 . He went to the doctor for a shoulder injury after falling downstairs and had a massive cardiac arrest in the surgery. The doctor couldn’t save him . Life has been dreadful since then .
I hear an awful lot from my AS and DIL about their feelings/ actions whatever not being validated . This seems to be quite a self indulgent attitude to life , especially when you are unable to consider the feelings and the emotions of your mum who’s recently bereaved . Nobody has validated my feelings . I’m expected to simply think of them ! I don’t expect much from him but a bit of compassion wouldn’t go amiss would it ? Then on top of this to weaponise an unborn child for around the last 6 months is just wicked . Being on the receiving end of such emotional blackmail certainly feels like abuse .

maybe your son got on better/Ok with your partner, and without him in the mix, finds dealing with you alone hard work.
maybe your son and his wife find your attitude to their life intrusive and so want to limit any excuses for further incursions related to their coming child.
your antipathy to your son's wife is not going to make either of them want to have you around.
your son seems to have a sense of duty towards you, so continues to come and see you and says he will help you with your flat.
it may not be what you want, may not be the ideal of happy extended families, but it's not nothing and i think you should be grateful for his continued support.
esp as you say you love him.

I understood what you meant Ladysuisie. If your partner was still here, he would no doubt have reprimanded your son for the way he's treating you and have supported and encouraged you to do the same.

It must be so much harder trying to deal with this on your own while you're still grieving.

Grams2five

@ Ladysuisei. You say the whole
Thing isn’t insurmountable but your son says otherwise. That makes it so. By saying he’s being unreasonable nothing has happened that can’t be forgiven you’re invalidating his feelings on the subject , he is telling it is insurmountable to him. Now - that may not be what you want to hear , and it may not be forever how he feels, but for this moment that’s what it is. It does lend itself to wonder if over the years there have been other instances where you have decided everything was fine and he had been saying otherwise and you simply weren’t paying attention. Perhaps some self reflection would be useful. While I’m sure it’s very hurtful to be told you won’t be meeting your grandchild you seem to feel your son being willing to continue contact with you within the baby is a form of “abuse” - which while it’s not pleasant for you doesn’t abuse make, and could also be seen by your son as you’re only caring about grandchild, since continued contact with just him isn’t enough for you. When you do speak with your son I would drop all mentio. Of , asking about seeing begging for contact with said grandchild and simply focus on your broken relationship with your son. That may take time, especially as he says there are insurmountable issues but so long as you’re still in contact I would focus my energy there.

Additionally you’ve repeatedly said “he’d never have gotten away with this if stepfather was alive”. Meaning what? Your partner would have …. Bullied your son into acting differently?
Shamed? Forced ? That doesn’t sound as if this was a healthy adult relationship to start there may have already been issues brewing

@Grams2five

I would like to draw attention to this reply which I received which has disgusted me . Forgive me for including the whole quote , us 59 year olds not very computer literate ( this one isn’t !) .

Anyway , I take issue with the final paragraph. This “ lady “ has made inflammatory, distasteful, untrue , and vile comments which relate to my partner who died in January 2023 . As well as these comments being factually incorrect, they are totally vile , whilst making a direct attack at my wonderful ( late ) partner who is no longer around to be able to defend himself.

@Grams2five : I expect your justification together with an apology within 24 hours , which gives you plenty of time to word it in a decent manner . How you can even THINK such disgusting things is beyond me but to write them down in a public forum shows you are far from being a decent person……….
I look forward to your response……..

Ladysuisei Having read through this and other posts on a different thread, I really think you should seek some professional help.
Try and find a counsellor who specialises in estrangement.
In the meantime continue to see your son.
Regarding the above, this is an open forum, not an echo chamber.

@Wellbeck
Cheers that was harsh ! I have previously had a great relationship with my DIL and just because I didn’t go into details in replying doesn’t indicate antipathy. I thought I’d said this nastiness towards me started in her pregnancy but that may have been something else . Anyway, my son did have a great relationship with his stepdad but he also had a lovely warm , funny and loving relationship with me also . So forgive me for being a bit confused and upset by his sudden change . I can assure you my AS doesn’t have a sense of duty , only to himself. He now regularly tells lies both to me and about me , these lies often being delivered with various expletives. Whatever he wants out of life will include showing me respect going forward- I have allowed verbal abuse to be directed at me for far too long and it stops right now . I don’t understand why you should say I’m intrusive within their lives - they have everything in their own terms so that isn’t the case . Regarding help with my flat - I’m waiting for him to transport me , my belongings and my cat back there following a period of time staying at my dad’s convalescing after an emergency hospital stay . Again I don’t think he’s doing me anything particularly wonderful here considering everything which has been done for him over the years .

i give up

Smileless2012

I understood what you meant Ladysuisie. If your partner was still here, he would no doubt have reprimanded your son for the way he's treating you and have supported and encouraged you to do the same.

It must be so much harder trying to deal with this on your own while you're still grieving.

And reprimanding adult children is not appropriate either. Which is what I was asking. Treating other adults like subordinates , like children isn’t a healthy way to have a relationship. In all of this concern a ot how she should be treated differently because she is grieving , no mention that ds is also grieving.

Op states she hears “an awful lot from ds and your dil (not his wife lady ) about how you don’t hear or validate their feelings “. Well that sums it up doesn’t it. You don’t respect the feelings of others. And yet in the same breath as calling expecting one’s feelings to be validated entitlement you make demands about why no one is validating yours. It doesn’t work that way. It’s like respect. You can’t disrespect someone and then demand they respect you. You say “weaponized an unborn child “ and I guarantee you they say “protect their unborn child “ from you. Because they don’t want the baby feeling the sense of obligation your son seems to feel toward you. Whatever issues you feel aren’t insurmountable , your son disagrees. Start there and stop telling him they are that big a deal, really listen to what he’s telling you you’ve done that he feels he doesn’t want his precious child exposed too, and then do some serious self examination as to what you’ve done and how you historically acted. And start by accepting that your dil is your sons wife , the most important person in his life and your obvious contempt for
Her isn’t going to do you any favors , especially when it
Comes to HER BABY. Perhaps a little bumble pie would be well served.

Ladysuisei

@Wellbeck
Cheers that was harsh ! I have previously had a great relationship with my DIL and just because I didn’t go into details in replying doesn’t indicate antipathy. I thought I’d said this nastiness towards me started in her pregnancy but that may have been something else . Anyway, my son did have a great relationship with his stepdad but he also had a lovely warm , funny and loving relationship with me also . So forgive me for being a bit confused and upset by his sudden change . I can assure you my AS doesn’t have a sense of duty , only to himself. He now regularly tells lies both to me and about me , these lies often being delivered with various expletives. Whatever he wants out of life will include showing me respect going forward- I have allowed verbal abuse to be directed at me for far too long and it stops right now . I don’t understand why you should say I’m intrusive within their lives - they have everything in their own terms so that isn’t the case . Regarding help with my flat - I’m waiting for him to transport me , my belongings and my cat back there following a period of time staying at my dad’s convalescing after an emergency hospital stay . Again I don’t think he’s doing me anything particularly wonderful here considering everything which has been done for him over the years .

Second thought ignore my previous comment and walk away gracefully and with what dignity you can muster. You’re waiting for him to transport you your car a shut belongs but don’t see it as him doing anything for you ? Your relationship was never loving , I suspect he just loved his stepfather enough to tolerate your ridiculous entitled attitude.

😂. Good grief. “Lady”. @Ladysuisei. I was abbreviation your user nam as I didn’t want to be sure on how to spell it 😝. I agree with pp. You should definitely seek professional help. Counseling would do you a wonder of
Good

"I suspect he just loved his stepfather enough to tolerate your ridiculous entitled attitude" what a thoroughly unpleasant thing to say Grams2five.

No Contact is a term in use for when a person needs to distance themselves from an abusive person, abusive people are incapable of "hearing" why their victim chose No Contact. So whether the reasons for it are explained to them or not, they generally say they do not know why or that the reasons they have been given did not happen. No Contact is used by victims primarily to protect themselves from harm and usually a last resort after taking many other steps to improve the relationship.

Silent Treatment is a form of abuse, it is used to deliberately hurt the victim for a period of time, usually until they get what they want or feel they have caused enough upset. Silent treatment is an abuse tactic, the person doing it has no intention of actually ending the relationship.

Both these things are entirely different. I have been told many times that abuse victims, who are the ones who use the term "No Contact", are somehow wrong to do so on this forum sadly but the fact remains... People may misuse the term but the term is used by victims of abuse and by trying to remove it, you remove a way for people to say that they justifiably left a relationship, whether that is a parent, an adult child or a partner.

I was a single mother of two toddler boys, ages 3years and 3 months. In 1980 I left an extremely abusive husband who beat me to a bloody mess and loaded a 357 magnum and held us hostage for 6 hours. I was released from the hospital and drove 1,360 miles home and made a life for us. I devoted my entire adult life (their childhood) to being a good mom. They went to 12 years a Catholic school and 4 years of college. Every penny I had went to keeping a roof over our heads, clothes on our backs, food on our table. They went to camp every summer and played travel sports, my youngest even got a full scholarship to college for sports. I didn’t date, I spent all my time working 3 jobs and running them to and from practice, games and school.
We had a great family relationship, when they graduated from college I got remarried to a lifelong friend. We were happy and enjoyed each others company. Our kids would plan time together, dinner out, vacations, we all liked each other, we enjoyed each other.
In 2007 my youngest son got involved with a girl who was the sister of a boy he went to school with. She cane from a very dysfunctional family with a great deal of drama, always drama. Always someone fighting or not talking to someone. When she was little one of her first memories was her father cheating on her mother. So she woke up in the kids in the middle of the night, put them in the car and drove to the other woman’s house. She went in dragged her out onto the front lawn and beat her in front of her children, threw a rock thru he picture window and got arrested. This is the family he became involved with! She got pregnant, my son got engaged when my grandson was 6 months old, she sat on my couch and casually told me “you and your family won’t be invited to the wedding I’ll make sure of that”.. and then she laughed. I never would have believed it, but she lied, manipulated, and apparently set out to make it happen by the time my grandson was 1 year old we never saw my son or his family again. They moved out under cover of darkness and went to Florida. There were no arguments, no fights, she gave my son an ultimatum and he chose his new family.
It’s been 17 years, I have 3 more grandchildren I have never met. I am not bitter or angry. I believe in my heart he is a great father and a good provider and he did what he thought was best for his family. I respect that. I am sad, heartbroken that all of my life I sacrificed so that I could one day enjoy the fruits of that labor of love, my grandchildren. And lots of cousins to boot! I held my grandson every day of the first year of his life, I cherish those moments and that time I had with him. I am sad I didn’t get to know the other three. I’ll die and never be a part of their lives, it’s devastating. But I know my son knows I love him, it’s never been a question and my door will always be open. My daughter in law has an aunt who did the same thing, 25 years later her husband reunited with his family after his children were grown. I often wonder if that will happen to us? In the meantime I have not reached out, I’ve had no contact and neither has his brother for all these years we have respected his decision.
It’s not abuse, your children have free will, but it is heartbreaking that’s for sure.💔

I have had a really good think about your situation, from reading all your responses and looking at the other thread I am getting a clearer picture.

I had a very difficult time with my mother who had NPD and did go NC for sometime.

I wish more than anything she had stopped all the vitriol, he said she said etc and just calmly asked me how we could move forward and what she could do to allow her a part in our family.

I think you need to draw a line under the past and have this conversation with your son in the hope that trust will be regained on both sides.

I'm not sure how your experience of your mother who had NPD is relevant to Ladysuisei Sago .

Smileless2012

I'm not sure how your experience of your mother who had NPD is relevant to Ladysuisei Sago .

Think about it.

I'd prefer it if you actually said what you mean Sago. If you're not prepared to do so then it may better to say nothing.

Sago "asked me how we could move forward and what she could do to allow her a part in our family

As I understand it LadyS has already asked what she can do and been told "nothing"! A bit of an impasse really and no apparent desire to move forward at the moment, from her son.