Strength after narcissistic abuse

Yes I agree Gwylt that sometimes on estrangement threads narcissism is glossed over.

It isn't always immediately obvious Bridie especially if your relationship with a narcissist is because for example, they're in a relationship with your AC.

It's over a period of time that you see how your AC has changed and how your relationship with them is changing and by the time you're aware of what's actually going on, it's often too late.

You and others in their lives have been estranged so that there's no one close enough to them who may be able to get them to see they're in a toxic, manipulative and controlling relationship. Abusers, especially in adult relationships, always isolate their victims from anyone they think may have a degree of influence.

Not everyone encounters a narcissist in childhood icanhandthemback because their parent(s) is/are a narcissist. Having never encountered one before makes you just as vulnerable as someone whose parent(s) are, and have been raised to believe that abusive behaviour is normal.

When you've been raised in a loving and caring family, why would you think that the person you enter into an adult relationship with, would treat you any differently?

Bridie22

We can surely see that somebody is nasty, has a cruel streak... our human instinct usually picks this up.

You obviously haven't had dealings with a narc.
If you are the child of a narc, you are quite used to their behaviour because they are the only way you have ever known. You lack self esteem because of the way they have treated you so you think it must be your fault. In my case, that affected all my relationships from a young age because I didn't know what a normal relationship was. I was also frightened of my Mum. She had ruled my life with violence, moods that swung between me being a wonderful daughter to out of the blue me being the worst daughter anybody could ever had. It was just so confusing. Oh and the constant message that there was something very wrong with a person who abandoned their mother who should be the most important person in your life. This was so imprinted on to me that it took me years and a very kind, thoughtful man to help me see that my Mum's behaviour was toxic.
Narcs don't start off being cruel if they are love relationships. As new boyfriends, they are often charming and make you feel so loved because there is no one else in the world they'd rather been with. You look at that as being the pattern of your relationship so when things start to change, you are perhaps more forgiving than you might normally be. Their digs are often subtle to start with too. Just enough to make you start to doubt yourself. If you have also had a parent with similar traits, you are so used to this behaviour it is almost normal. You are used to being unhappy, it's just the way things are.
I can only see this now as I have distanced myself from such behaviour. I am not a stupid person, just someone who didn't know there was a different way to have a relationship with someone.

I meant the individual, I understand people use personnas, but I knew as a child that a close person was cruel but other people didn't sense it at that time.

Not always so Bridie. People who knew my father but didn't know what was happening at home thought he was great. Everyone.

Smile less
I wasn’t being negative when I mentioned opening a can of worm I meant that people who had not felt able to bring up the topic felt they were able to
On some estrangement threads on occasions I have felt that narc tendencies have sometimes been glossed over
Equally I appreciate that these days the term can be bandied about too freely

We can surely see that somebody is nasty, has a cruel streak... our human instinct usually picks this up.

Narcissism is often mentioned/talked about on GN Gwylt. If you look at the estrangement forum, you'll see that there have been numerous threads over they years discussing this topic.

I don't think that discussing this is opening a can of worms, it's an important issue and it's good that people can open up about their personal experiences.

It goes without saying that we only get one side of the story here on GN, and indeed any forums or articles in magazines and news papers where readers are writing in asking for advice about a personal situation.

It's very distressing thinking or knowing that a family member is in a toxic relationship 62dg, we worry about our ES and GC for the same reason.

It is very sad because there's nothing you can do unless they can see it for themselves.

This thread has truly opened my eyes and I thank you OP for that article. I am surprised at the ferocity of feeling expressed regarding the term! But I appreciate all terms have nuance look at the word “Stress” .
My main reason for posting was to say I have a family member in a toxic relationship and we as a family have tried so hard for a number of years to help her leave or at least see the toxic behaviour. We have just realised as her family that it’s on an endless loop? Awful behaviour! Contrite husband, forgiveness and gifts🙈and the cycle begins again! It is so so sad but we have to realise you cannot rescue someone without them wanting it truly. It doesn’t help that I have just left a 44 year marriage, not from abuse at all, nevertheless, I found the strength to do it. I am so so happy, and keep telling her, which in a way I don’t think is helping! I wish everyone that has suffered and finally resolved some self esteem from whatever cut off was needed all the best.

No problem at all, we all deserve a space to talk about these things

Violet sky it was very brave of you to open up this subject and long overdue
Seems as if the mention of the word narcissist has opened up a can of worms .
I have only been on Gransnet for a relatively short time . It had struck me that the word narcissist had only been mentioned few if any times in previous threads I’m sure if it has then someone will correct me
The comment that people should draw their knowledge from professional literature seems to me ironic. I thought the whole idea of Gransnet was for people to comment and if appropriate to offer their advice and support I doubt very much if many of the posters have been peer reviewed
Narcissist are very different from a nasty person they can be difficult to spot especially a covert narcissist they can appear so very pleasant to the outsider
For anyone who has suffered narc abuse they will know what I am talking about when I say it is the lies , the secretiveness , the deflecting, making someone doubt their own handle on reality., the attempted isolation from family and friends. The picking of arguments about nothing at sensitive times Absence of Accountability
If you talk to a narc and their supply it may well be difficult to tell who is telling the truth some what similar to Minchausen by proxy
Now called Factitious Disorder Imposed on Another
As I said in a different post there is only ever one side to a post on Gransnet

VioletSky Thank you for running this post. I have learnt a lot from it. Also, why I have suffered many years of stress and depression. Hopefully, I can learn some skills to deal with this situation in the future, following the links that others have posted.

Unfortunately for my brother that wasn't the case JaneJudge and it wont be the case for every golden child. They can suffer too.

Until the moment I walked away, I never really said an unkind thing, not counting teenage shouting matches.
My husband, who she treated like dirt, and implied that he was a bit dim, he’s not, was always respectful and helpful her out a lot, he still visits her
We did a lot of things which were expected of us, which we didn’t actually want to do.
We included her in all family occasions, despite the fact that she would bad mouth me to anyone who would listen
My conscience is clear.

Just read the whole of this thread. Brought back a few awful memories and produced a few tears.
I do think it's almost impossible for people who haven't experienced the hell of living with a narc parent (particularly a mother) to understand. I've had counselling /therapy going back to the 1980s. Not sure it ever really helped.
I went NC with my narc mother 7 years ago but had to see her twice in 2022 when my daughter got married.
This is such a heartbreaking thread
Thinking of everyone dealing with it
Do we ever heal?
I'm nearly 63,not sure I have

I can say I've never been cruel or nasty to my mother. Never called her names etc

Just walked away when I had too

I think the scapegoats are more emotionally intelligent and it poses a threat

VioletSky

And a quick look back through the thread will show you every "label" an abuser made their victims carry for a lot of their life. Like "worthless", "never amount to anything", "over sensitive" etc

Yet we aren't using labels to hurt anyone, not even the people who abused us. We are only using them to help ourselves

Yes it’s not that difficult to understand, is it?

@VioletSky do you know what ……I’ve suggested counselling to my son ( with me obviously!) because I cannot understand his sudden deep rooted hatred towards me . As his mum , I’ve done my best but obviously something is bothering him very badly . After much introspection, I cannot think of anything serious enough to warrant this . He’s so utterly cruel to me on purpose. Yes , as a parent I’d never suggest I was perfect and I know there are certain things which I’ve said that were miscommunicated and left to fester . He’s also said a lot of very cruel and cutting things to me . By way of offering the olive branch, I suggested counselling so we could talk about what is wrong- he virtually snarled at me and said he had better things to do . I really try my best but up against this , it’s impossible. After reading some of your posts , maybe your mother should think herself lucky with this olive branch from you - I’d give anything for my son to agree to this x

Being the 'golden child' can be as damaging as being the scapegoat. My mum wasn't abusive but our relationship wasn't what I wished it could be.

My brother was the golden child and in the end it did neither of them any favours.

PennyHalfpenny

Sago

Ladysuisei

@Sago did your mother receive a diagnosis then , or was it a clash of personalities ( or similar) ?

What a cruel and thoughtless response.
The sort of response a narcissist would give.

My mother was an abusive narc, she allowed my father to physically abuse me and would incite him to do it.
She used to tell me how I was stupid, would end up in the gutter whilst praising my brother.
She once cleared my bank account to buy my brother a gift.

She told staff at school I was a compulsive liar just in case I mentioned the abuse that went on at home.

She turned friends and family against me to divide and rule.

I was like Cinderella, at the age of 11 I cleaned the house and was once beaten by her for using a squegee mop and not a scrubbing brush on the floor.

Any supposedly happy occasion she would ruin for me, she always had a drama up her sleeve, she managed it on the day of my first born, my wedding and a baptism.
I grew up hearing the words “I rue the day you were born”.

I could go on but some of it is still too painful.

Hardly a personality clash.

This sounds just like my own childhood, unfortunately. So many similarities - I was the Scapegoat, my brother the Golden Child. I was emotionally and physically abused, gaslighted, neglected … the physical abuse (including being pushed downstairs by my father) has caused permanent damage to my eyesight. I await surgery no 4. A therapist thought my mother sounded like a “narcissist” and, having checked out the traits, I’m not about to disagree. So, it’s not a “personality clash” but something far worse. It’s the abuse and betrayal of a child’s love and trust. My parents are now in their nineties but I have had nothing to do with them for 5 years. I don’t even know if I will find out about their deaths, or how I might feel if I do hear. But it’s a big fat ‘No’ from me to any further contact.

PennyHalfpenny Another survivor! Well done.
There are so many of us aren’t there?
My brother was the golden child too, he was not a good person and this was probably why, he had such arrogance and was full of self importance.
I know a few “golden children” and none of them are very nice.
I think as the scapegoats we have developed into much better people.

Absolutely Sara the best form of revenge is a happy life, isn't that how the saying goes? .

VioletSky

Yes Sara, totally

I spent a long time waiting for the right words and a long time to accept they were never coming but once I did, my thinking never went back

Then I realised that when she needs care, I won't be going either because the guilt was gone

Yes, 100% agree with you comment about their care. I was the default person who was going to be my mother's caretaker. She used to joke about it actually. Now my oldest brother is the only one who still talks to her so it's his problem I guess. It certainly isn't mine anymore. I think it will be a shock when the time comes and I don't leap to the rescue.

Yes Sara, totally

I spent a long time waiting for the right words and a long time to accept they were never coming but once I did, my thinking never went back

Then I realised that when she needs care, I won't be going either because the guilt was gone

I understand Violet, but don’t you feel that at some point you close down, and all the therapy in the world wouldn’t help you build bridges, too late.
And I don’t disagree Smileless, I know we can’t out walk our past. But I would never give my mother the satisfaction of thinking she’d ruined my life, she would just love that.

Sago

Ladysuisei

@Sago did your mother receive a diagnosis then , or was it a clash of personalities ( or similar) ?

What a cruel and thoughtless response.
The sort of response a narcissist would give.

My mother was an abusive narc, she allowed my father to physically abuse me and would incite him to do it.
She used to tell me how I was stupid, would end up in the gutter whilst praising my brother.
She once cleared my bank account to buy my brother a gift.

She told staff at school I was a compulsive liar just in case I mentioned the abuse that went on at home.

She turned friends and family against me to divide and rule.

I was like Cinderella, at the age of 11 I cleaned the house and was once beaten by her for using a squegee mop and not a scrubbing brush on the floor.

Any supposedly happy occasion she would ruin for me, she always had a drama up her sleeve, she managed it on the day of my first born, my wedding and a baptism.
I grew up hearing the words “I rue the day you were born”.

I could go on but some of it is still too painful.

Hardly a personality clash.

This sounds just like my own childhood, unfortunately. So many similarities - I was the Scapegoat, my brother the Golden Child. I was emotionally and physically abused, gaslighted, neglected … the physical abuse (including being pushed downstairs by my father) has caused permanent damage to my eyesight. I await surgery no 4. A therapist thought my mother sounded like a “narcissist” and, having checked out the traits, I’m not about to disagree. So, it’s not a “personality clash” but something far worse. It’s the abuse and betrayal of a child’s love and trust. My parents are now in their nineties but I have had nothing to do with them for 5 years. I don’t even know if I will find out about their deaths, or how I might feel if I do hear. But it’s a big fat ‘No’ from me to any further contact.