The next thread for friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life

Another good response Madgran.

I'd have thought too MissA. Ladysu's right to healthy boundaries are just as important as her son's and maybe he needs to learn that in order to have his respected, he needs to respect the boundaries of others.

My mother's ignorance for my mental health struggles and her dismissive language was one of my reasons for estrangement. If she were better educated on the topic, or even if she spoke with more care I wouldn't have found it so difficult to confide in her. This started at a time when I was being treated for depression and had not even considered blaming my upbringing. Her defensiveness was one of the first red flags.

How a person speaks to and about someone's health is so important. I wouldn't expect anyone to tolerate such disrespect and I certainly didn't. Call it a lack of resilience, but if you do research you will see that children who suffer trauma are the most resilient of us all. Unfortunately, the continued need for resilience during development damages the brain. These are scientific facts that may be uncomfortable to acknowledge and accept.

Anyone participating is such talk cannot say they don't know why they were cut off. A decent person wouldn't mock, downplay, or otherwise discredit someone's symptoms with physical health conditions and so they should respect anxiety, depression, PTSD, etc in the same way. If you can't be kind you should stop talking about it.

The toxicity is a shame, when there are people here who have not been cut off yet. Anyone buying this will surely have the same fate eventually.

Anyone who wants to save their relationship with their adult child and still has a chance should leave as I will now. I've read these threads for a long time but never have I been so bothered by it.

Good luck to your children.

Again, the same respect should be shown for ladysu.
She is getting support on here, and working her way through a complicated situation, all the more complicated by her bpd.

Each time she appears, so do others who want to try and drag the situation back to how it was when she first posted.

Unless you are an expert in PDS I don’t see how anyone can alter how Ladysu feels, a big part is fear of abandonment which along with all the other issues makes her more vulnerable. Her son has other traumas and we don’t know how this affects him but can guess with his wife not well and his mother. The very best thing is to avoid any conflict as her son and Dil have expressed their feelings at this moment as they are dealing with their own problems. Lady really needs to see her doctor and explain how she’s feeling and I wish she would.

Talking is great therapy.
Sometimes it's a case of having a sounding board, rather than an echo chamber, as it is when one lives alone.

@DiamondLily no I’m sure it doesn’t do them any good . When I was young ( only around 30 years ago ) we just got on with things . Yes there were stressful things to deal with but you didn’t think about running away just got on with it . As I say I’d never heard of estrangement of parents in those days . It was on the evening news earlier- so many people in early 20’s not even able to look for work because of mental health struggles/ stress. What life will they have …..

@Allsorts you are right when you state fear of abandonment is a symptom of BPD and this for me is probably the worst. Loneliness and simply being alone is very hard which is why I’ve not settled since my partner died . Also I went through a phase of frantically trying to avoid being abandoned by my son after being “ abandoned “ by my partner. That’s a difficult one to understand, it’s not as if he did it on purpose. So whilst frantically trying to avoid further pain from the abandonment, respecting my son’s boundaries went out of the window without me noticing, therefore driving him away I believe. Now this has lessened I’m hoping we can repair our relationship. It’s a very complicated disorder to live with and causes great pain and suffering. I’m receiving help actually but it’s pretty ineffective. Medication is often used but there’s no evidence that it works for BPD, so I’m taking limited doses for anxiety only . The whole irony of this situation is that my DIL is also diagnosed with BPD, so my son chooses a partner with the same destructive character traits as his mother . The main difference is that she doesn’t receive any treatment whatsoever. Maybe one day she might be facing the same fate as me with her own son . I hope she learns from this period of time and tries to get her disorder under control. X

Madgran77

*GG65 I haven’t missed anything, Madgran. I’ve read her posts on this thread, and on others. I know the situation well enough to comment.*

GG65 Remaining calm during conversations and respecting someone’s boundaries are two entirely different things

Yes they are! As you have read all the posts, I am surprised that you appear not to be aware that the "calm" reference has become "shorthand", understood by Lady, myself and other posters for a particular strategy that I recommended to lady regarding:
+ respecting her son's boundaries by keeping calm, rather than getting angry and defensive
+not referring to the subjects he doesn't want to discuss and respecting his boundaries
+really listening to him and showing him that she has listened
+letting him lead on any discussions
+keeping to more general day to day subjects unless he wishes to talk about the issues arising.

GG65 Having read all her posts about the extent she has discussed her possibly not seeing her grandchild (who hasn’t even been born, by the way) with her family, especially her dad, and how they have all agreed that they will not have a relationship with her son and grandchild if she doesn’t, I’m not surprised that her dad commented on it at all, so I’m not sure why *Ladysue is surprised.*

Ladysue has every right to discuss this situation with her father. (yes I am aware the granchild hasn't been born; but understandably, as she has been told before the child is born that she will not have a relationship, it is exercising her mind and her emotions!)
What I referred to was that she was surprised her dad came in at all. The previous week he had not participated and things went better. She presumably did not realise it would be different this week. She and her dad clearly need to clarify what her strategy is and she needs to explain to him why what he did was not helpful, but it is quite understandable that she did not expect what happened. She has already said that she understands it wasn't helpful and I think she said she will talk to her dad about that.

GG65 Where? She has repeatedly said that she hasn’t done anything wrong, despite detailing instances where she has, in fact, done something wrong. She has said that she is guilty of “smothering him (her son) with love” which, to do to an adult, is really controlling and overbearing.

She has been quite clear about the incident at the hospital being the start of the problems. She has over time considered that, explained why she reacted as she did, accepted that it was not the best reaction whilst also wondering why it could not be discussed and sorted out. She has in a number of posts on a range of threads said things she thinks she has done wrong but is not allowed to discuss or explain or apologise for anything, having been told that an apology won't solve things!

GG65 I don’t think your final paragraph is helpful, at all, because:

GG65 When stressed, people with borderline personality disorder experience a distortion of their perceptions or beliefs. In close relationships, they tend to misinterpret or amplify what other people feel about them. They believe that others are harming (abusing) them without basis in reality. They believe that others have hostile intent toward them

I am well aware of the above. However although there may well be elements of all that in this situation, there is reality in the verbal abuse that she has been listening to. Her son is aware of her BPD! And having BPD does not preclude setting boundaries when faced with that level of verbal abuse

GG65 What would be helpful would be encouraging Ladysuisei to see her GP, or her mental health team (if she has one). BPD is a serious mental health condition. I have experience in this area. I could see traits of BPD in Ladysuisei‘s posts before she even mentioned it. It’s not unusual for older women to not even know they have the condition because they slip through the net. So for Ladysuisei to have the diagnosis at her age means that her condition has gotten bad in the past to the extent she has needed medical intervention - but it is only an advantage that she has this diagnosis because she has access to the appropriate support. She needs to utilise that support as she is running head first into total estrangement with her son because her disorder will not allow her to stop the behaviours he has an issue with, nor will it even allow her to see those behaviours. Your advice that she “set her own boundaries” with her son is absurd in her situation. I have advised Ladysuisei on other threads to please reach out to her GP. It is the only way here and I can imagine her son would be completely supportive of her if she went down this path. He has dealt with this his entire life and, despite everything, is still clinging onto maintaining a relationship with her. And she can’t see that

A lot of us have advised the same GG65. It is up to LadySue whether she takes that advice. But while she is working through this mess she has at least settled on a strategy that has some possibility of sustaining a relationship to a point where she feels perhaps more able to utilise wider support and also where maybe she and her family are able to move forward more positively. Its better than what she was describing previously and actually last week created a situation that is better for both her and for her son where there was no shouting and no verbal abuse and some sort of normality in their interactions.

I don't agree that my advice re "setting her own boundaries" with regard to the verbal abuse is in the least absurd. I am at a loss as to why someone should have to put up with that level of verbal abuse because they have BPD!

I know you think you are being helpful here Madgran, but I will repeat, BPD is a serious mental health condition which can sometimes medication and hospitalisation.

Whatever strategies you suggest are not going to make one bit of difference. There is a very effective treatment for BPD which is CBT based, but specifically adapted to deal with the symptoms of BPD. It’s about learning the skills to cope with and manage the symptoms and intense emotions/anxieties of BPD. It’s really not something one can learn on their own.

I can see from Ladysuisei‘s posts that she is spiralling and I am concerned about her son not being able to manage the stress of the situation any longer and Ladysuisei going into a crisis. She has already said that the passing of her partner have exacerbated her symptoms.

A lot of us have advised the same GG65

I haven’t seen many people advise Ladysuisei to reach out to her GP for support, Madgran. In fact, it’s clear from many of the comments that most don’t realise just how serious and complex BPD is and think that her son and her being told that she might not be able to see her grandson is the core issue here.

It’s her condition that is the issue and she needs to know that there is help and support available to her.

which can sometimes *require medication and hospitalisation.

It's a personality disorder as far as I (with no knowledge at all) know.

Ladysuisei May I ask…What hurtful things does your son say to you? and What do you say when you apologize to your daughter-in-law?

Smileless2012

Another good response Madgran.

I'd have thought too MissA. Ladysu's right to healthy boundaries are just as important as her son's and maybe he needs to learn that in order to have his respected, he needs to respect the boundaries of others.

I'd have thought too MissA. Ladysu's right to healthy boundaries are just as important as her son's and maybe he needs to learn that in order to have his respected, he needs to respect the boundaries of others

This is a good example of the ignorance surrounding BPD on this thread.

As if Ladysuisei is just going to be able to accept her son’s boundary by having him respect hers. That is just not how it works. That is not the reality of living with this condition at all.

BPD is characterised by an intense fear of abandonment. Setting boundaries with someone with BPD is going to trigger that person’s fear of abandonment, and they will engage in frantic efforts to avoid that abandonment. It’s a struggle to even regulate the emotions surrounding this for the person with BPD, they certainly will not be in a position to set their own “healthy boundaries” in response. They will very likely see this setting of boundaries as cruelty and abuse.

This just isn’t helpful at all.

Strange, because that is exactly the conclusion that ladysu has come to, herself.
Just by speaking about it, with no judgement, she has begun to realise that she has an issue with abandonment.

MissAdventure

Strange, because that is exactly the conclusion that ladysu has come to, herself.
Just by speaking about it, with no judgement, she has begun to realise that she has an issue with abandonment.

She knows she has an issue with abandonment because she has been diagnosed with BPD and as a result of mental health support understands what it is and how it presents, manifests and affects her.

You didn’t actually think she just came to that realisation on her own, with help from good old Gransnet, did you?

You do realise that BPD manifests in a way that some people will never be able to accept that they have it, never mind access any kind of treatment for it.

It’s not something that just talking to people and using them as a “sounding board” can fix. It’s a serious mental health condition MissAdventure.

No, I realised as soon as I'd written it that it was pretty obvious ladysu would know.
She has realised she may have been projecting that fear onto her son, and annoying him.
.it is a personality disorder, and people live with all kinds of conditions and disorders, all day, and every day if their lives, quietly getting on with their struggles.
You are demonising it, when it is manageable, mostly.

And actually, yes, I do "realise" lots of things, as I supported a couple who both had a dual diagnosis for over 3 years, 3 times a week 🙂

@MissAdventure

You should have a look at Ladysuisei‘s posts on her thread “How to tell someone life is too short” to see just how good an understanding and insight Ladysuisei has into her condition and how it affects her.

I suppose this is the downside of seeking support on online forums. When it comes to physical and mental health, please, go to your GP. People may mean well, but they are often ill informed.

I would never trivialise a condition or the symptoms of a condition that I knew nothing about.

Me neither.
I don't think anyone could accuse you of trivialising it.
The conversation moved on days ago, but you're still going on about it!

Ladysu also said she felt as if she had gone ten rounds with Tyson, having posted on here.
So, to keep harking back to that is helpful in what way, exactly? If you are concerned that is so serious, why make the lady feel like that again?

MissAdventure

No, I realised as soon as I'd written it that it was pretty obvious ladysu would know.
She has realised she may have been projecting that fear onto her son, and annoying him.
.it is a personality disorder, and people live with all kinds of conditions and disorders, all day, and every day if their lives, quietly getting on with their struggles.
You are demonising it, when it is manageable, mostly.

You are demonising it, when it is manageable, mostly.

I am not demonising it at all.

You are trivialising the condition. It’s not managable, mostly. It’s not just a bout of depression or generalised anxiety.

It is, of course, manageable if one engages with DBT and the appropriate support, but not everyone does, and it is not easy to do so.

Also, some people with BPD can function well, mostly, or they can be low functioning. They still suffer the same, though.

I KNOW!!!!!!!

From the first google result.
The maclean hospital...

A BPD diagnosis doesn't mean that someone will live with symptoms forever. With treatment, the symptoms ebb and flow. Many people with the condition can have high-functioning lives.9 Sept 2023

MissAdventure

I KNOW!!!!!!!

Why are you choosing to engage with me if you are getting so worked up about it.

You can always ignore my posts or as you suggested to me “move on”.

MissAdventure

From the first google result.
The maclean hospital...

A BPD diagnosis doesn't mean that someone will live with symptoms forever. With treatment, the symptoms ebb and flow. Many people with the condition can have high-functioning lives.9 Sept 2023

The salient words here being with treatment. Which I have been encouraging Ladysuisei to reach out to her GP about.

Next result from the verywellmind website, updated on the 6th feb this year.

Living with borderline personality disorder (BPD) poses some challenges. Intense emotional pain and feelings of emptiness, desperation, anger, hopelessness, and loneliness are common. These symptoms can affect every part of your life. Despite the challenges, many people with BPD learn how to cope with the symptoms so they can live fulfilling lives.