DIL ignores sister

maddyone

Thank you Smileless and DL.
She’s not still with him, she left over over a year ago, but they’re in New Zealand. He was trying to separate her from her family and friends when they lived here, and I suspected as much, but he finally managed to persuade her to go to NZ with him for one to two years, but they’re still there after over three years because he refuses to return and refuses to allow her to bring the children home, now even for a holiday. The possibility of permanent return will have to go to court, but at the moment she’s just trying to get permission to bring them home for a Christmas holiday. She’s not a flight risk, she knows she would have to return. It’s very complicated and there’s a lot more details, but I can’t write it all on here.
Thank you both for your concern. You’ve no idea how much the support is welcomed by me.

Ah, yes, I know it’s a lot more complicated for children resident abroad. I hope she manages to solve something, in time.💐

Maddyone, I’m very sad for you all its a horrible situation. Hopefully the court will agree to your d and children coming home, maybe not Christmas, but another visit, I was coercively controlled and when you're in that situation you really think everything that happens to you is because you deserve it.
On Emmerdale there is a story running on a sensitive young girl, recently married who has been controlled and abused by her new husband.
Your d luckily has taken the steps to be free of him. However, unfortunately she has no alternative but to do it by the courts in NZ. There are lawyers here that could fight her case to enable her return to UK but I daresay it would cost too much money. He has control now but it won’t be forever. Everything will be ok it just might take a little longer. 💐

Thank you Smileless and DL.
She’s not still with him, she left over over a year ago, but they’re in New Zealand. He was trying to separate her from her family and friends when they lived here, and I suspected as much, but he finally managed to persuade her to go to NZ with him for one to two years, but they’re still there after over three years because he refuses to return and refuses to allow her to bring the children home, now even for a holiday. The possibility of permanent return will have to go to court, but at the moment she’s just trying to get permission to bring them home for a Christmas holiday. She’s not a flight risk, she knows she would have to return. It’s very complicated and there’s a lot more details, but I can’t write it all on here.
Thank you both for your concern. You’ve no idea how much the support is welcomed by me.

maddyone

Thank you DL. That’s much appreciated.
The only thing is to go back to court. It’s so draining, as you say. And emotional for us all. I’ve just spoken to my daughter again tonight. She had to tell the children finally, and they cried. She was crying herself as she spoke to me. It’s very stressful, but you know that. So does Smileless. Thank you again. We soldier on.

I don’t know whether she’s still with him or not. If she is, it’s an abusive, coercive relationship, and she can get help from the Women’s Aid agencies etc.

If they are separated, then she can get advice from a solicitor, and may be entitled to legal aid.

But, no, it is murderous and draining when our young relatives get into these sorts of relationships.

Best wishes. 💐

Draining and expensive maddy. Looking ahead, can he not see that he's potentially doing long term damage to his relationship with his children?

Not only is he controlling and emotionally abusing your D, he's controlling and emotionally abusing his children.

Thank you DL. That’s much appreciated.
The only thing is to go back to court. It’s so draining, as you say. And emotional for us all. I’ve just spoken to my daughter again tonight. She had to tell the children finally, and they cried. She was crying herself as she spoke to me. It’s very stressful, but you know that. So does Smileless. Thank you again. We soldier on.

I wonder where on earth they are getting the "information and advice" from too DL and maybe in the future when their children are adults, they'll have cause for concern too.

Smileless2012

^There should be enough love to go around^ you'd think so wouldn't you DL.

In the brief 8 months when we did see our GC, we baby sat once when we were asked and never made any demands. Friends were welcomed by our ES's wife but family not so much, even when invited!!!

If you were lucky, I suppose we were unlucky. We thought our family would continue to be as you describe yours but it wasn't meant to be .

I know. In the end, it’s down to luck and who our birth family choose to get involved with. It’s nothing to do with what I’ve done well - it’s just been sheer chance that my two picked nice partners.

I know from my adult step kids etc how awful people can be.

Some younger people are so toxic, and unforgiving of trivia, I wonder where on earth they are getting the “information and advice” from.🤷‍♀️

maddyone

^there are toxic manipulative people - but it’s not confined to grans/grandads^

No it’s not.
We’ve just had the latest instalment in our little ongoing saga this very morning. The manipulative ex of my daughter now totally refuses her permission to bring her children home for Christmas after stalling, offering unreasonable conditions, and now a backtrack to no, not at all. Daughter is beside herself, the children will be distraught when they’re told. This is coercion at its best. And he’s not a grandad, he’s young. There are a lot more details, you will understand, I can’t write it all. I’m feeling very low as a result of this morning’s news. That’s it, it’s a roller coaster of emotions.

I’m sorry about that. I’ve had to do a 2 year court case involving manipulation, mental health etc, and it’s draining.

Anyone that thinks all this is confined to older people are deluded.

Is there nothing your daughter can do?

If not, sympathies.💐

there are toxic manipulative people - but it’s not confined to grans/grandads

No it’s not.
We’ve just had the latest instalment in our little ongoing saga this very morning. The manipulative ex of my daughter now totally refuses her permission to bring her children home for Christmas after stalling, offering unreasonable conditions, and now a backtrack to no, not at all. Daughter is beside herself, the children will be distraught when they’re told. This is coercion at its best. And he’s not a grandad, he’s young. There are a lot more details, you will understand, I can’t write it all. I’m feeling very low as a result of this morning’s news. That’s it, it’s a roller coaster of emotions.

There should be enough love to go around you'd think so wouldn't you DL.

In the brief 8 months when we did see our GC, we baby sat once when we were asked and never made any demands. Friends were welcomed by our ES's wife but family not so much, even when invited!!!

If you were lucky, I suppose we were unlucky. We thought our family would continue to be as you describe yours but it wasn't meant to be .

Feverjo

Indeed DL, it does cause chaos when one person tries to control other people in the family. Telling new parents who should be allowed to visit them, when, and how often. Using monetary "gifts" to control where other members live or who gets to babysit the babies of others. Attempts to pit spouses against each other. All of these behaviours are toxic. I find it so strange that some grans attempt to cause rifts between young couples when new babies arrive. I don't see how one's child finding their partner can be such a threat. I am so thrilled to take a back set to child-rearing.

Well, I guess I’m one of the lucky ones. My two ACs are married to lovely people, who I get on well with, and who have never tried to disrupt the relationship I have with my ACs.

But, it happens. And it’s sad when it does. There should be enough love to go around!

I don’t know - my daughter has 4 children (now adults), and virtually the minute she’d given birth, she was on the phone, demanding that I came to the hospital to visit my new GC. (Preferably bearing gifts (and best M&S strawberries lol).😉)

When she came home she and SIL asked me to go daily for a while to help out etc. Which I did.

She welcomed any visitors, proud to show off her new child. It all seemed pretty normal, with no dramas.🤷‍♀️

I never demanded to babysit or anything else. I often said no, as I was busy. I have a great relationship with the GCs, but it developed over many years. Living locally helped.

Of course there are toxic manipulative people - but it’s not confined to grans/grandads. Some young people can be pretty toxic as well. And some, all ages, are just Drama Llamas, seeking conflict over the silliest of things.

But, generally, everyone has fairly normal foibles, faults, quirks etc - in most families, it just results in a bit of eye rolling, and accepting people for what they are - without a widespread falling out.🙂

I was posting about coercive control from my own experience Feverjo and the affect it has had on our family.

Indeed DL, it does cause chaos when one person tries to control other people in the family. Telling new parents who should be allowed to visit them, when, and how often. Using monetary "gifts" to control where other members live or who gets to babysit the babies of others. Attempts to pit spouses against each other. All of these behaviours are toxic. I find it so strange that some grans attempt to cause rifts between young couples when new babies arrive. I don't see how one's child finding their partner can be such a threat. I am so thrilled to take a back set to child-rearing.

Smileless2012

That really surprises me maddy, probably because the legal framework in Australia is very much like our own and I assumed New Zealand's was too.

It makes me cringe Feverjo to see comments like the go-to social slander in relation to coercive control. For those of us who have seen loved ones manipulated and their families torn apart, coercive control is as maddy has posted very real. It is insidious and difficult to prove and it's power to destroy is frightening to behold.

Smileless, speculation in't a substitute "difficult to prove" accusations such as coercive control. It should take more than "my son won't stand up to my daughter in law for me" to be able to accuse people of such things. It's insidious and slanderous to weaponize abuse terminology simply because one adult (adult parent) can't get another adult (adult son/daughter) to essentially bend the spouses to their wishes. It just isn't remotely appropriate simply because a grandparent is complaining about not getting their what they deem is their "fair share" of access to new babies/baby care. No one said it isn't real. It's just not real every time an entitled gran wants their child to "stand up" to their child's wife.

maddyone

DiamondLily

I don’t know the OP, her sister, or anyone else in the family. If this has been posted elsewhere, then I still don’t know. I don’t know the family dynamics.

But, as a general comment, I would say that coercive control can exist within a relationship, or marriage. I think it’s recently become illegal.

I think to describe the victims as “spineless” is a bit harsh - control can creep up, undermining the other person in stages. It’s insidious.

Men or women can be coercive.

But, as I say, I don’t know the OP, and it might not be the case anyway.🙂

Good post DL.
And believe you me, I have cause to know.

So have I. It’s very cleverly done usually. Sort of like “mission creep”.

I’ve never really understood why one person seeks to control every thought and action of another.

It can cause chaos in families.☹️

That really surprises me maddy, probably because the legal framework in Australia is very much like our own and I assumed New Zealand's was too.

It makes me cringe Feverjo to see comments like the go-to social slander in relation to coercive control. For those of us who have seen loved ones manipulated and their families torn apart, coercive control is as maddy has posted very real. It is insidious and difficult to prove and it's power to destroy is frightening to behold.

maddyone

Feverjo
Coercive control is very real. It is insidious and difficult to prove. My daughter knows she was coercively controlled. In fact she told me that it had been happening for years. She told me things he said that clearly show coercion. There are many details that I will not write on a public site, but believe you me, when I heard some things she told me, I cried.

I am really sorry your daughter went through that, maddy. It's horrific to even think about. I am very happy to hear your daughter shared with you so that you could support her and help her heal. As a mum, I take these situations to heart.

I take it so serious in fact, that makes me cringe a bit when I see the term weaponized where the true underlying issue is just a mum wanting her son to side with her in disputes with his wife. Using that term in such an unconfirmed manner is highly manipulative. When thinking about people like your daughter actually living through it, it's just so inappropriate. Too often when some grans can't control their adult son/spouse or daughter/spouse, the go-to social slander is either attack the mental health of the spouse or accuse them of controlling their child. It's damaging.

Is there ANYTHING she can do??! She's not likely to approach DIL. If I was there, I would rip my nephew a new one.
quote from OP

Now there is an approach that should guarantee that no one on father's side ever sees the bay, or its parents again. again.

Feverjo
Coercive control is very real. It is insidious and difficult to prove. My daughter knows she was coercively controlled. In fact she told me that it had been happening for years. She told me things he said that clearly show coercion. There are many details that I will not write on a public site, but believe you me, when I heard some things she told me, I cried.

Thank you Smileless, that’s so kind. The one thing that’s good is that although she’s so far away, we are in regular contact and we spend several weeks there each year. When she was living very near, we had times when he prevented contact with us. It’s my opinion that most of the estrangements that happen after an adult child gets married are caused by the new husband/wife.

Hopefully they’ll be able to make their Christmas visit. The children are so happy and excited about it and talk about it to us often we video chat with them. The total relocation will take much longer to sort out, the courts will be involved and we have no idea how that will end.

You’re right, coercive control is illegal here in the UK, but it’s not illegal in New Zealand.

Sorry for the typos. "zero inclination that the son is being controlled."

The vast majority of the time the only people who truly know the dynamics of a marriage are the two people themselves, until one or both parties discloses information. Assumptions that fuel our own outsider perspectives seldom yield positive results. The couples tend to choose each other. It's just more comforting to assume someone else is nefariously responsible for your own child not doing what you want them to.

Regarding this post, there is zero inclination wha that the "son" is being controlled. The irony of a mum accusing her DIL of being controlling because her son won't make his wife do what the mum wants would be funny if it wasn't so toxic. I don't recall my grandparents generation being as controlling and over-involved as many current grans, hence fewer instances of these troubling schisms.

Yes it does maddy. Coercive control became a criminal offence in December 2019 but despite this the damage done to families by a third party is often overlooked and parents, often the mothers are blamed when in fact it is the s.i.l. or d.i.l. who is responsible.

I hope that now the courts are involved this nightmare and heartbreaking situation for you, your DD and your GC will soon be resolved.

You are always in my thoughts maddy.

It happens though Smileless. In our case our daughter suffered from coercive control by her husband. They’re getting divorced now, but we have all gone through a lot to get to this stage. It took years before she recognised what he was doing to her. And it continues, even though they’re separated and now living in New Zealand (this is a common tactic from narcissist people who coercively control their partners, they isolate them from friends and family) and even bringing the children home for a Christmas visit is causing severe problems as he is refusing to allow it. The courts are now involved.