Estrangement

Good advice DL.
If this therapist behaved unprofessionally he/she should not be practising, though looking at recent news stories I think monitoring unprofessional therapists is not easy.

The restraining order wasn’t granted. So, whoever decided on it obviously discounted the “evidence” of the therapist,🤷‍♀️

OP - if you feel this therapist has acted unprofessionally, or overstepped to mark, you can make a complaint, and you can complain to BACUP, assuming this therapist is a member.

www.bacp.co.uk/about-us/protecting-the-public/professional-conduct/how-to-complain-about-a-bacp-member/

Best wishes. 🌺

Luminance

Was the therapist putting the advice in writing evidence used for the restraining order?

That’s what I’m wondering as in that case it does make sense that the therapist would have made a statement. In either case it maybe best for op to focus on acceptance of the current situation over anything else for now

Thank you

Thanks Cossy 🌹

My advice remains the same Poppy, the fact that you describe this as a ‘dispute’ and restraining orders were mentioned shows how much you have invested in trying to fix this. But I also know the toll this will have taken, and how much your well-being will have been compromised. If you say your daughter was willing to meet last time perhaps ask an intermediary who she will communicate with and who isn’t in her spouse’s bad books, if you can arrange a meet up. But don’t try any more than this.
You have gone above and beyond in trying your best to fix what is not in your gift to fix right now. It will continue to tear you apart whilst achieving nothing.
So sorry you and your husband are in this dreadful bind. 🥺

Was the therapist putting the advice in writing evidence used for the restraining order?

Thank you. In terms of the therapist I can confirm that she did write this 'advice' as it was used as part of the ongoing dispute as evidence. [I have a copy in which she confirmed that she had advised them to ....' etc. The most frustrating thing about the whole awful situation is that my child and spouse absolutely refuse to engage now at all, They have been extremely hostile and refuse to give any explanation for their actions. Of course it would be acceptable to estrange if the family had been abusive but that isn't the case. We did manage one breakthrough when a meeting was arranged [my daughter agreed and set a date] but at the last minute the spouse stopped it happening.

Babs03

@poppy glad you came back. This therapist/counsellor sounds extremely unprofessional, I imagine the whole idea is for therapists to let their client make decisions, not to make those decisions for them. We have a similar bad experience which I told you about on the other thread, though in reflection I wonder if was the therapists fault or our estranged daughter’s for using the fact she needed to see a therapist against us, and embroidering upon what the therapist said. Certainly we could never trust her word, and our other daughters are also estranged from her for similar reasons. Perhaps your daughter has also fabricated what the therapist said? Am sure is easy enough to fake this in writing. Don’t get me wrong my distrust of therapists is never going change but also our estranged ACs can go to great lengths to abuse/hurt us.
Her spouse could be difficult and controlling but if there has already been a restraining order made against you am afraid you need to stay away and try to get on with your life, and I mean ‘get on’ with your life don’t waste any more years just biding your time waiting to see if she relents. Life is too short. Distract yourselves with things you enjoy doing, and gain strength from those around you who love you and support you.
Take care 🙏🏾🌹

Lovely and fair, sensible advice.

I feel for you too Babs, children can be so cruel.

Apologies just reread your post and can see that the restraining order didn’t succeed, but perhaps take that as a warning that your daughter and her spouse will try any means to stop you seeing them or your GCs.

Coercive partners are extremely clever and gradually pick, pick, pick away, alienating both friends and family so that they, (coercive partner) have complete control over their partner, who may not even recognise it’s toxic.

I wonder who suggested therapy and why?

You have all my empathy Poppy, I truly hope you work things out.

In the meantime do you have any other children, and are they still in touch with your daughter?

@poppy glad you came back. This therapist/counsellor sounds extremely unprofessional, I imagine the whole idea is for therapists to let their client make decisions, not to make those decisions for them. We have a similar bad experience which I told you about on the other thread, though in reflection I wonder if was the therapists fault or our estranged daughter’s for using the fact she needed to see a therapist against us, and embroidering upon what the therapist said. Certainly we could never trust her word, and our other daughters are also estranged from her for similar reasons. Perhaps your daughter has also fabricated what the therapist said? Am sure is easy enough to fake this in writing. Don’t get me wrong my distrust of therapists is never going change but also our estranged ACs can go to great lengths to abuse/hurt us.
Her spouse could be difficult and controlling but if there has already been a restraining order made against you am afraid you need to stay away and try to get on with your life, and I mean ‘get on’ with your life don’t waste any more years just biding your time waiting to see if she relents. Life is too short. Distract yourselves with things you enjoy doing, and gain strength from those around you who love you and support you.
Take care 🙏🏾🌹

What can you physically do towards the situation Poppy? Can you report the therapist for conduct? Do you have evidence of coercive controlling behaviour by the husband you can take to the police?

sorry, posted too soon

Or if there's a history of abuse from the one they've estranged, they may feel that other family members have been complicit by not doing anything to stop, it or will attempt to excuse the inexcusable

Hello again Poppy, it's good to see you've posted as it always worries me that people may have been put off if they've received judgemental and unpleasant responses.

You have nothing to apologise for. It's not always easy to cover everything in one post, especially if it's your first and you're finding it difficult to think straight because you're upset.

This does seem very odd, and this may be seem even odder but are you certain that what you've seen has been written by this therapist? There seems no reason to me why s/he would feel the need to put the advice they've given in writing and give that written confirmation to their client/patient.

It is common for the one whose estranging to estrange other close family members as I think all of us on GN who have been estrange, can attest to. They don't want to be disagreed with and/or be in a position where they may have to explain/give reasons for their actions.

So sorry to hear that Poppy
I am not estranged (nearly was, few years ago), but goodness me - I have such moody daughters-in-law, especially the younger one. I tread on eggshells all the time, but for the sake of peace, I just play by the rules.

Thank you all for the very supportive messages. My thoughts go to those of you who are going through the same unbearable situation albeit at different stages. When I wrote my first post, because I was upset and not thinking straight, I may have been too clumsy with my description of the intervention of the therapist. Apologies but to clarify I have seen in writing the therapist's own confirmation that she has advised my child and spouse to stand united against us. This then led to estrangement. I acknowledge that most therapists will be very professional but clearly not this one. Without going into detail this person has succeeded in breaking up a previously happy family. We had an excellent relationship with our child and grandchildren [regularly cared for them] until the therapist intervened. I believe my child was dealing with the fact that the spouse was difficult and controlling but then when they both had therapy the therapist seems to have put the blame on the rest of her family. [My child by the way has also estranged from other close family members] This according to some experts in the field of estrangement by adult childen is a common and increasing trend. [See Joshua Coleman, Barbara Drizen and the idea of the 'Mother Wound'] But thanks again and it is good to share these things.

I would say, from other sources, from younger people, that coercive spouses are more common than we sometimes realise. Obviously, this also depends on various opinions as to what actually constitutes coercive.

It’s very much an individual thing.

Much like seeking counselling - it will help some people, others will find it to be a waste of time.

Every estrangement is different - and sometimes it is better to just accept the status quo and move on.🤷‍♀️

I agree Norah that moving forward is the only way but you can't ignore the fact you've been estranged by your own child because the impact on your life is too big to simply ignore.

Poppy41

We have been estranged from our daughter (with whom we had a great relationship) and grandchildren for a few years.The problem is her coercive husband who has now succeeded in completely cutting her off from us even to the extent of trying to get a restraining order on us without success. We no longer know where she lives and when we have managed to speak to her she has completely changed. We also know that her therapist has advised her to break ties with us.This is so painful.Is there anyone who has had a similar experience of coercive partners and or therapists who have succeeded in destroying a previously great family relationship?

I do know estranged people. The reasons vary.

I suspect the best solution may be to self reflect, even to the things one sees as small/nothing. Then ignore and move forward.

Babs03

@Grams2five
Unless the OP is the exception to the rule I would imagine both parents have unpicked every occasion and conversation they have ever had with their estranged daughter, trying to find what they did so wrong. Is a fallacy that estranged parents suddenly lose a much loved daughter or son and simply say ‘oh well it’s nothing to do with us let’s just blame everyone else’, self analysis comes first. Indeed the first thing most of us do is beat ourselves up, to take the blame and the shame for whatever we might be blamed for. The most asked question parents say to each other is ‘what have we done?’
But if these parents are years into their estrangement they have probably exhausted self analysis and instead examined what is going on with their daughter, and a coercive partner is not out of the question.
As for therapy I don’t recommend this with estranged ACs unless is family therapy, of course that is if the issue of safe keeping is not in question, because one side of anything that could result in permanent estrangement is not advisable, surely all sides should be taken into account. And though there are good therapists out there it has hit the news recently how little therapy and counselling is actually monitored, and suggestibility is probably high with young adults looking for a sympathetic ear.
Just my opinion though so take it or leave it.

Key words there were “so wrong” Estranged persons often don’t find the reasons for estrangement so wrong. They think of them as little things Which is why I suggested looking for things they didn’t think were a big deal. As for therapy being a poor choice for those in estranged relationships I did that hogwash. Therapy is good for most anyone . Especially those struggling to deal with things like estrangement. And I believe I said he’s coercive partners do exist. But they tend to dispose counseling. I spent years volunteering at a women’s shelter for victims of controlling partners and domestic abuse. Controlling partners absolutely keep their partners from going to to therapy counseling etc because they want them under their control. Therapy would threaten that.

The lack of monitoring of therapists and counsellors is concerning as you say Babs. There are good and bad but without sufficient safe guarding the bad ones can and do cause more problems than they solve.

Simply put, I think some on this forum particularly those who have estranged or whose partners have estranged, are too quick to pour scorn on EP's who know or suspect that their EAC is in a coercively controlled relationship Grams.

We believe our ES is in such a relationship but have never allowed that to render him blameless, we are his parents and he has gone along with it, so the responsibility is just as much his as it is his wife's.

If you'd taken Poppy's OP at face value rather than being so quick to judge, you could have avoided saying you thought this was a windup as there's been nothing so far to suggest that it is.

The last thing that anyone needs when coming to a forum looking for advice and/or support, is to be accused of winding up forum members simply because they are the one whose been estranged rather than being the one who has estranged.

@Grams2five
Unless the OP is the exception to the rule I would imagine both parents have unpicked every occasion and conversation they have ever had with their estranged daughter, trying to find what they did so wrong. Is a fallacy that estranged parents suddenly lose a much loved daughter or son and simply say ‘oh well it’s nothing to do with us let’s just blame everyone else’, self analysis comes first. Indeed the first thing most of us do is beat ourselves up, to take the blame and the shame for whatever we might be blamed for. The most asked question parents say to each other is ‘what have we done?’
But if these parents are years into their estrangement they have probably exhausted self analysis and instead examined what is going on with their daughter, and a coercive partner is not out of the question.
As for therapy I don’t recommend this with estranged ACs unless is family therapy, of course that is if the issue of safe keeping is not in question, because one side of anything that could result in permanent estrangement is not advisable, surely all sides should be taken into account. And though there are good therapists out there it has hit the news recently how little therapy and counselling is actually monitored, and suggestibility is probably high with young adults looking for a sympathetic ear.
Just my opinion though so take it or leave it.

Or both perhaps. It seems odd that the daughters counselor wouldn’t recognize the coercive husband for what he was is all I was thinking. Generally speaking therapists don’t tell on what to do but support them choosing for themselves what is best for them. And simply put. I think this forum and perhaps ep in general are quick to find l coercive spouse “ as the e obvious answer to estrangement - perhaps because it leaves little blame for themselves or their eac. Yes it’s possible yes it happens but I find it to be more rare than ia believed here. I also think it’s even less likely if indeed the women’s therapist has supported and encouraged an estrangement. So unless the therapist part is made up coercive controlling husband ! Seems not to fit the bill. Of course the daughte could in theory fabricate things to tell the therapist but then that’s the issue not a mysterious controlling spouse. And given the large number of fake poaters lately it rings untrue to me.

To take it on face value I’d encourage poppy to take a hard look at the estrangement and look for other clues as to why her daughter may have estranged. Things she said , etc. if she told them her therapist supported the estrangement what were the reasons given. What else did she say - even before that in terms of issue with the relationship , perhaps even things that poppy didn’t think much of at the time or seem like they were significant. And focus her energy on that rather than rendering herself and her daughter blameless and focusing on third parties. Coercive spouse , therapists etc. truly coercive spouses also rarely allow their partners to attend therapy - they want total control and therapists are all about working on oneself and maintaining control over one’s own emotions and circumstances. Therapists pose a threat for controlling individuals.