Estrangement isn't only non contact. It's lack of empathy and love. It's selfishness.

Allsorts

You certainly need a different therapist.,It's exhausting.

I disagree. She's the one who told me I was being a normal grandpatent and mom and I had to stop apologizing and state facts only; don't feed excuses and fuel arguments. It has worked......but that doesn't take the hurt away or her unloving attitude.

You certainly need a different therapist.,It's exhausting.

stillawipp

Eugenia

Hithere

"And it would be insane for her to estrange over something she judged me as being the bad guy for when I correct it. But, the expectations put on me are insane, so who knows? "

Op
It is not up to you to decide what justifies estrangement on your daughter's side.

So so many red flags

Not up to me what justifies? Well, when you tell your mom to act one way, because the way you act now isn't acceptable, and you do what she asks....then she still decides to estrange, I'd say that is not only unjustifiable, it's downright crazy. Hey, maybe estrangement is justified if I wear the color purple more than once a week, or like to eat pork, or decide to paint my house green, I guess it's a ALL justified whether it makes sense or not. How about just because I gave birth to the girl that her husband rejected? Surely that's a reason to punish mom. Logic decides, dear, logic. I am using logic. If I am told whatever I am doing is wrong, and I correct it, I will not believe for one second any punishment thereafter for doing what I was told is justified in any way, shape or form. So yeah, using plain ole logic, it is up to me to decide. So any estrangement thereof would definately, logically, be unjustified. Period. Can't have cake and eat it too.

Ooh dear, OP, I hope your therapist is telling you that there is no chance of reconciliation whilst you are thinking about your daughter and your relationship with her in this way. Look how many times this paragraph is about you, not her. I have no doubt that you are feeling upset, aggrieved and victimised, but until you realise that there is a reason for her acting the way she does and try to understand it from her point of view and lose the "what about me?" approach, I'm afraid you have zero chance of reconciliation.
"How about just because I gave birth to the girl that her husband rejected?" is about the saddest thing I have heard from a mother in a long time...

It is a sad thing to hear. But it's all I can figure out due to her complete change in personality and relationships with me and the rest of the family. She is self hating, I believe, but projects that onto me. She was left in a very, very cold and abrupt way. Like she didn't matter. It was horrible.

Summerlove

Eugenia

Also, Summerlove, how do you feel about a parent trying to turn a child against his grandma? Is that ok?

It’s not, in a safe loving relationship.

I don’t believe that’s what you and your daughter have though. I think your actions and words are quite unsafe honestly.

Your grandchild’s relationship with his mother is more important than his relationship with you at this stage. It just is. The fact that you want to shake it up and make him insecure is horrible.

You’ve been abused by your husband and haven’t left. You continue to expose your family to him. In fact it seems to be the least of your concerns. To me that’s unsafe.

To my mind, your thinking is so disordered. You appear to only be concerned about being right and getting what you feel you’re owed. I think your therapist is doing you a disservice in playing into this from what you’ve said.

I honestly wish you the best, but. I think you need a lot of help to get there.

Yes, I understand the dynamic between a child and mother. That's why I don't accuse. I defend. Otherwise, he will grow up thinking I am some horrible person for what reason there is none. I don't know, honestly, I think she'd rejecting me and lately her entire family/childhood. Even her brother is stumped when she doesn't enjoy sharing memories we all had when they were kids, calling a lot of things we enjoyed then, like TV shows or movies, places, etc. as "old". He still treasures those days. I really, really think it's a form of self hate, she hates herself because her husband dropped her so fast and unexpected, in a very cold way, would not even try marriage counseling, nothing. It broke my heart to see how coldly he did that. At least if there was some efforts made, wouldn't seem so cold hearted. I think she's punishing me for all of it.

I do think you need distance between your daughter and her family, you are sounding too involved in their lives and overly needy. Your daughter needs time to herself and to determine what she wants and needs.

Eugenia

Hithere

"And it would be insane for her to estrange over something she judged me as being the bad guy for when I correct it. But, the expectations put on me are insane, so who knows? "

Op
It is not up to you to decide what justifies estrangement on your daughter's side.

So so many red flags

Not up to me what justifies? Well, when you tell your mom to act one way, because the way you act now isn't acceptable, and you do what she asks....then she still decides to estrange, I'd say that is not only unjustifiable, it's downright crazy. Hey, maybe estrangement is justified if I wear the color purple more than once a week, or like to eat pork, or decide to paint my house green, I guess it's a ALL justified whether it makes sense or not. How about just because I gave birth to the girl that her husband rejected? Surely that's a reason to punish mom. Logic decides, dear, logic. I am using logic. If I am told whatever I am doing is wrong, and I correct it, I will not believe for one second any punishment thereafter for doing what I was told is justified in any way, shape or form. So yeah, using plain ole logic, it is up to me to decide. So any estrangement thereof would definately, logically, be unjustified. Period. Can't have cake and eat it too.

Ooh dear, OP, I hope your therapist is telling you that there is no chance of reconciliation whilst you are thinking about your daughter and your relationship with her in this way. Look how many times this paragraph is about you, not her. I have no doubt that you are feeling upset, aggrieved and victimised, but until you realise that there is a reason for her acting the way she does and try to understand it from her point of view and lose the "what about me?" approach, I'm afraid you have zero chance of reconciliation.
"How about just because I gave birth to the girl that her husband rejected?" is about the saddest thing I have heard from a mother in a long time...

Eugenia

Also, Summerlove, how do you feel about a parent trying to turn a child against his grandma? Is that ok?

It’s not, in a safe loving relationship.

I don’t believe that’s what you and your daughter have though. I think your actions and words are quite unsafe honestly.

Your grandchild’s relationship with his mother is more important than his relationship with you at this stage. It just is. The fact that you want to shake it up and make him insecure is horrible.

You’ve been abused by your husband and haven’t left. You continue to expose your family to him. In fact it seems to be the least of your concerns. To me that’s unsafe.

To my mind, your thinking is so disordered. You appear to only be concerned about being right and getting what you feel you’re owed. I think your therapist is doing you a disservice in playing into this from what you’ve said.

I honestly wish you the best, but. I think you need a lot of help to get there.

Delila

I’m wondering how that child feels in the middle of all this - his little sister too.

I know a few times he was stand offish to me and called me a bad grandma. Come to find out, she had told him that. That's when I explained it was a misunderstanding and I would never do anything to cause me to be a bad grandma, mom or person. Then just tried to say sometimes people get the wrong ideas and I don't know why. Doesn't mean its true. But it was ok, I didn't care, only that he knew I will always try to be a good grandma, mom and person. I felt like asking her how it's ok to call me a bad grandma? Can you imagine if I called her a bad mom to him? I hope he told her about what I said so she'd know she got caught telling a kid his grandma was bad. Mb he did because I haven't heard him say that anymore. Ehy is it OK to put me on the chopping block because her life got messed up? I sure as he'll didn't run off on her like her husband....yet he still gets more consideration and respect than I do. She even defended him to me! And the girl that stole him! That's why I am done being on her side.

OldFriend

Hello Eugenia

First, I am saddened by the responses you have received here.
I, too, sought support and empathy in a bewildering and heartbreaking situation with my adult children, but seldom post on here.

May I say, I agree with you; the behaviours of many of our adult children ARE selfish and lacking empathy - in the case of my family I wonder who they do have any empathy with sometimes.
True, your daughter is going through grief and emotional trauma, but so are you,
Perhaps some professional help will be beneficial to you and it may be time to seek some kind of counselling. I have found a support network which is helpful, but never takes the sting from estrangement from the family I love.
Hope this helps.

Thank you for your kind words. No a therapist can't take the sting out but the one I have is so helpful for my defensive strategy. She was visibly shocked hearing how my daughter responds/behaves with me. She is the one who pointed out several things that were being used against me, as formentioned scapegoating, blame shifting. Before this one, I had another therapist who was not so good with helping my reactions/responses, but did tell me my daughter has no respect and she's acting like a child. Well. Yeah. I really haven't gotten into the whole story of things my daughter has done or said to me.......perhaps too long for this forum. Some of it is even so nit picky stupid that nobody would believe it, but usually no mayter what it is, it's always said in front of the grandkids to make me look either "bad" or "wrong". All of it consists of opinions and blame with no real proof/backup. One small but irritating example...... one day she, in front of her son who is of course losing baby teeth at this age....she claimed because I didn't make sure her baby teeth came out quick enough, I caused her to have to have braces!! I was shocked. I said don't you remember, the orthodontist said it was your small pallet. I had a small pallet too and even headgear couldn't straighten my teeth so they had to remove the premolars to make them straight. With her, by then, they had a device called a pallet spreader. So....our orthodontic issue was genetic! Not my fault. When I said that, she then said she wasn't going to argue because it's science (what she thinks she knows). It's so frustrating to be told you are wrong even when a professional person in that very science tells you what it truly is. But somehow, it's a lie when you say it!!! A very small example but the frustration of blame put upon me all the time and in front of grandkids. Who, with young impressionable minds, just soak stuff like that up. Trying to turn grandkids to dislike grandma is evil IMO. Anyway thank you SO much for understanding my pain.....I imagine you can because it's what happened to you too and for that, you have my sympathy!

I’m wondering how that child feels in the middle of all this - his little sister too.

M0nica

When AC are 'selfish and lack empathy' It is often because their parents especially their mothers have put them first in absolutely everything so that the children have never ever had to consider whether their demands are selfish or not or whether they should be more caring of other people.

Eugenia herself says I have always put my kids first in my life. Overinvolvement....... perhaps emotionally so

Sadly she is reaping the crop that she herself sowed.

Children should be brought up to be part of a family and community where there is give and take and where all members of the family, including young children learn that they need to think about other people round them and at times will not get their own way or what they want because other people's needs are greater.

Once your children grow up and leave home, especially once they form partnerships and marry, then you should put plenty of clear blue water between you and them, so that you ar not too close to your children - and I might add, grandchildren. No matter how fond you are of your grandchildren, once they reach their teens they will be far to busy to spend tme visiting you. You need to think about that in advance.

Yes true. It is spoiling and as I said before, one day out of the blue my mother, during a conversation about my kids, said you know I think you are spoiling your children. Are the time, I didn't see how and just smiled. Now I see.

Also, Summerlove, how do you feel about a parent trying to turn a child against his grandma? Is that ok?

theworriedwell

Do you think she realises that you value her children, particularly her son, more than her? Maybe she feels if she isn't that important to you why should you be that important to her. You were a mother before you were a grandmother. I think it is sad that you say you'd rather be in touch with the woman who broke up her marriage and the man who broke her heart than be in touch with her as long as you can access the children. Can you see how that might hurt her? Her husband left her and you consider your relationship with her children more important than your relationship with the person you gave birth to. I feel quite sorry for her if I am honest, she must feel like she is worthless.

I will leave this thread now but I again advise you to be careful what you could be throwing away, she will always be your baby whatever happens.

I don't think she knows and I don't treat her as I feel like treating her...which is, as a person who has hurt me and pretty much doesn't want a relationship with me outside her children. She even considers her relationship with friends is more important than me. She tells her sister in law I love you constantly. I haven't had an I love you in 5 years from her although I say it to her. I do get that from her kids though...so thankyou for your concern but she has created a wall I don't want to climb anymore. She has torn our relationship and only she can see it together..it wouldn't take much but if she doesn't want it I can't force it. So I wonder if she ever ponders the hurt she inflicted on me. I doubt it. Thank you again I did consider all you wrote.
..

Summerlove

*Once in awhile when I get the chance, I relate to him, during a similar scenario, like when his little sister sometimes says he does things or says something against his character (you know, brother sister kid stuff) and he protests "no I'm not!......I tell him see, just because your sister said you are, that doesn't make it true. His mom's opinions of me are not true is basically what I'm tryng to illustrate, just saying it isn't I don't believe is enough for a kid who thinks his mom knows all and is always right. That's just kids at that age, they don't question parents. But sometimes they should.*

Holy cow this is so dangerous. This is how you permanently lose access to your grandchild.

I wouldn’t blame your daughter. If my mother had done this with my young children, no matter how fantastic our relationship was, it would be over. You never try to turn a child against their parent.

It's not dangerous. I do not mention his mom in particular. It's a life lesson that just because someone accuses you of something doesn't make it true. My daughter told him once I was a bad grandma. It was over a simple misunderstanding. I have recognized thru therapy I have been scapegoated, gaslighted by a narcissistic husband to where my own kids believed his delusional thinking. I was unfamiliar with such things for decades. Despite that, I still had good relationship with my daughter until the her split, but find now those things he accused me of she brought up as believable. Now I suppose I could allow the cycle to continue and end up having my grandson jpin ranks, thinking I am a horrible mother, grandma and person or stand up and say no.

Summerlove

*Once in awhile when I get the chance, I relate to him, during a similar scenario, like when his little sister sometimes says he does things or says something against his character (you know, brother sister kid stuff) and he protests "no I'm not!......I tell him see, just because your sister said you are, that doesn't make it true. His mom's opinions of me are not true is basically what I'm tryng to illustrate, just saying it isn't I don't believe is enough for a kid who thinks his mom knows all and is always right. That's just kids at that age, they don't question parents. But sometimes they should.*

Holy cow this is so dangerous. This is how you permanently lose access to your grandchild.

I wouldn’t blame your daughter. If my mother had done this with my young children, no matter how fantastic our relationship was, it would be over. You never try to turn a child against their parent.

I agree this is quite shocking. Op you’re treading on very thin ice. I hope your poor daughter and her children are very forthright with eachother so that she will be made aware of your attempts to cause disruption in her family. Not only is this behavior appalling but it’s doing an incredible amount of disservice to the one person here you seem to care about beyond your son. Your precious golden grandchild.

Once in awhile when I get the chance, I relate to him, during a similar scenario, like when his little sister sometimes says he does things or says something against his character (you know, brother sister kid stuff) and he protests "no I'm not!......I tell him see, just because your sister said you are, that doesn't make it true. His mom's opinions of me are not true is basically what I'm tryng to illustrate, just saying it isn't I don't believe is enough for a kid who thinks his mom knows all and is always right. That's just kids at that age, they don't question parents. But sometimes they should.

Holy cow this is so dangerous. This is how you permanently lose access to your grandchild.

I wouldn’t blame your daughter. If my mother had done this with my young children, no matter how fantastic our relationship was, it would be over. You never try to turn a child against their parent.

When AC are 'selfish and lack empathy' It is often because their parents especially their mothers have put them first in absolutely everything so that the children have never ever had to consider whether their demands are selfish or not or whether they should be more caring of other people.

Eugenia herself says I have always put my kids first in my life. Overinvolvement....... perhaps emotionally so

Sadly she is reaping the crop that she herself sowed.

Children should be brought up to be part of a family and community where there is give and take and where all members of the family, including young children learn that they need to think about other people round them and at times will not get their own way or what they want because other people's needs are greater.

Once your children grow up and leave home, especially once they form partnerships and marry, then you should put plenty of clear blue water between you and them, so that you ar not too close to your children - and I might add, grandchildren. No matter how fond you are of your grandchildren, once they reach their teens they will be far to busy to spend tme visiting you. You need to think about that in advance.

Eugenia you can have cake and eat it too; there are many sorts of things that may be called cake.

Love is not a quid pro quo. I don't claim it's easy for you to adapt . Far from it. However your love for her does not hang on her love for you.

Eugenia, your daughter is not you, and her decisions are sometimes not what you would choose. You should allow for differences in temperament.

Moreover people do change sometimes very radically so they seem different personalities. Your daughter has been severely wounded and must adapt as best she can even though the adaptation does not suit you. Love accepts what helps another.

Hello Eugenia

First, I am saddened by the responses you have received here.
I, too, sought support and empathy in a bewildering and heartbreaking situation with my adult children, but seldom post on here.

May I say, I agree with you; the behaviours of many of our adult children ARE selfish and lacking empathy - in the case of my family I wonder who they do have any empathy with sometimes.
True, your daughter is going through grief and emotional trauma, but so are you,
Perhaps some professional help will be beneficial to you and it may be time to seek some kind of counselling. I have found a support network which is helpful, but never takes the sting from estrangement from the family I love.
Hope this helps.

Do you think she realises that you value her children, particularly her son, more than her? Maybe she feels if she isn't that important to you why should you be that important to her. You were a mother before you were a grandmother. I think it is sad that you say you'd rather be in touch with the woman who broke up her marriage and the man who broke her heart than be in touch with her as long as you can access the children. Can you see how that might hurt her? Her husband left her and you consider your relationship with her children more important than your relationship with the person you gave birth to. I feel quite sorry for her if I am honest, she must feel like she is worthless.

I will leave this thread now but I again advise you to be careful what you could be throwing away, she will always be your baby whatever happens.

Caleo

PS Your daughter does well to do what helps her even if it seems unsociable. She needs to put herself first, call it "selfishness" if you will, but she must put her own interests first.

I know it seems that way. But she's very socialable otherwise. She is actually doing great, except for that hole he left in her soul. But otherwise, she socializes all the time; trips with the boyfriend, going to see friends. No, she's selfish. At least when it comes to family. Why? I could guess that, in feeling like she wasn't good enough for her husband, might feel like not being that girl anymore and denying who she is, and what better way than drifting away from her roots? That's how I would feel, being utterly rejected like that. I'd hate who I am and where I came from. However, the blessing of having a family who stands only by you, loves you over all others, has been lost on her because of her rejecting of her own self and where and who she came from. How did I come up with that conclusion, you ask? Ok, I'm not a professional psychiatrist, but I am very deeply emotional person ever since I can remember.. so I pondered.....what if it was me? How would I react? How would I feel? And most important, how would I feel about myself? And this revelation is what I came up with. She wants to emotionally disown me, well, I thought, but now with the latest actions, I think bascially all her family. Sure, emotional disownment isn't the same as physically disowning, or estrangement, but in my original post, sometimes emotional disownment/estrangement feels exactly the same.

Hithere

"And it would be insane for her to estrange over something she judged me as being the bad guy for when I correct it. But, the expectations put on me are insane, so who knows? "

Op
It is not up to you to decide what justifies estrangement on your daughter's side.

So so many red flags

Not up to me what justifies? Well, when you tell your mom to act one way, because the way you act now isn't acceptable, and you do what she asks....then she still decides to estrange, I'd say that is not only unjustifiable, it's downright crazy. Hey, maybe estrangement is justified if I wear the color purple more than once a week, or like to eat pork, or decide to paint my house green, I guess it's a ALL justified whether it makes sense or not. How about just because I gave birth to the girl that her husband rejected? Surely that's a reason to punish mom. Logic decides, dear, logic. I am using logic. If I am told whatever I am doing is wrong, and I correct it, I will not believe for one second any punishment thereafter for doing what I was told is justified in any way, shape or form. So yeah, using plain ole logic, it is up to me to decide. So any estrangement thereof would definately, logically, be unjustified. Period. Can't have cake and eat it too.

welbeck

They've grown up.
To an outsider it looks as if you are too involved in your daughter's family life.
Or trying to be.
As others have said you need to stand back.
You seem to pour all your emotional energy into issues re your daughter.
Her children. her ex. Her dealings with other relatives.
What about your own marriage.
You mentioned a controlling husband.
Are you still with him?
Is he your daughter's father.
That may explain some issues.
But have you considered that your over involvement in your daughter's life is a distraction for you from your own situation.
A kind of maladaptive coping strategy? Maybe.
These things are usually unconscious.
But life is brief.
Make the most of it.
Address your own issues.
And leave your daughter to deal with hers.
All the best.

Thank you for well thought out advice. I have always put my kids first in my life. Overinvolvement....... perhaps emotionally so, as I mentioned before cried so many nights for her pain; never in front of her, except only once right when we found out. Always offered help with things, cleaning, kids, etc. and anything else I could do. Made it a point each visit to bring food, buy dinners, etc. or when we go places, I always pay. But never overinvolved in an intrusive way; at least since both my kids have been adults, and most times I'm glad NOT to know all the in's and outs of their lives, I mean, who needs to know all that? I'm just happy to know the basics aka if they are doing well physically, mentally and financially. I don't need details and I don't like gossip. But, good advice on dealing with my own issues, which right now are feeling old and useless. I am thinking of finally trying to lose some weight, get back in the gym where I used to be several days a week and had gotten quite a bit of muscle actually. Still have some of it but I've gained fat since my late menopause at age 62, it's only been 5 years since I stopped having periods, I'm 67 now. I've sort of been in a horrible nightmare these last 5 years, terrible menopause, my daughter's breakup; right before that, husband was acting better, son too, and daughter and I were so close. She was happy with a husband and a two year old. Overnight, it changed and then the gradual slide down of everything else. The biggest thing is her criticism in front of my grandson, it has effected our closeness. He and I been close ever since his birth, which my daughter had actually encourged, until some months after the breakup she started saying it made her sick. Which was realll hurtful, but I didn't say anything back. I am doing all I can to look good in his eyes, but it's hard because a son is gonna believe his mom. Once in awhile when I get the chance, I relate to him, during a similar scenario, like when his little sister sometimes says he does things or says something against his character (you know, brother sister kid stuff) and he protests "no I'm not!......I tell him see, just because your sister said you are, that doesn't make it true. His mom's opinions of me are not true is basically what I'm tryng to illustrate, just saying it isn't I don't believe is enough for a kid who thinks his mom knows all and is always right. That's just kids at that age, they don't question parents. But sometimes they should.

theworriedwell

I hope you are right Eugenia. I still think there is a middle ground between being vindictive and inviting the ex and the other woman round to socialise with you.

I hope it works out for you.

Thank you. I understand your concerns and appreciate your input. But really, don't know what else to do at this point but play along. I refuse to be pegged the "vindictive" one in all this, it's just plain dumb. So much for standing up for your kid, eh? I did what any good mother would, but just got slammed for it. And seriously, I'm not looking forward to any of it.....kinda hurts to be around the girl who ruined everything...but, this is a good way to get to do more things with the grandkids and also perhaps have an ally in case my daughter ever decides to really tear things up. It's not my ideal scenario, I would hate it but yes if I could see my grandkids via son in law vs. her cutting us off, I'd see the grandkids. Enough punishment already, just for being her mom. I've had enough.