Estrangement isn't only non contact. It's lack of empathy and love. It's selfishness.

That's correct Delila which although it is devastating to be betrayed by someone you love, after 5 years you'd hope that rebuilding your life and moving on would be the case.

This is what your D appears to be doing Eugenia and I hope that you're going to be able to do so too. You still see her and the GC which is something you can build on.

I may be mistaken but I think the OP’s daughter and her husband split up 5 years ago, and that she now has a boyfriend. She and the boyfriend sometimes go to places together with her ex-husband and his new girlfriend as a group of two couples, so it sounds as though life is moving forward for the OP’s daughter in a positive way.

"And it would be insane for her to estrange over something she judged me as being the bad guy for when I correct it. But, the expectations put on me are insane, so who knows? "

Op
It is not up to you to decide what justifies estrangement on your daughter's side.

So so many red flags

Thank you for that confirmation
Luminance and Babs03.
Sometimes the onlookers see more of the game.
The players are in the thick of it.
Harder to have an overview.

welbeck

They've grown up.
To an outsider it looks as if you are too involved in your daughter's family life.
Or trying to be.
As others have said you need to stand back.
You seem to pour all your emotional energy into issues re your daughter.
Her children. her ex. Her dealings with other relatives.
What about your own marriage.
You mentioned a controlling husband.
Are you still with him?
Is he your daughter's father.
That may explain some issues.
But have you considered that your over involvement in your daughter's life is a distraction for you from your own situation.
A kind of maladaptive coping strategy? Maybe.
These things are usually unconscious.
But life is brief.
Make the most of it.
Address your own issues.
And leave your daughter to deal with hers.
All the best.

Good advice wellbeck.
xx

PS Your daughter does well to do what helps her even if it seems unsociable. She needs to put herself first, call it "selfishness" if you will, but she must put her own interests first.

Eugenia:
"Being in a room with people yet still being alone" is an excellent way to describe the feeling!

Your daughter too will be feeling alone due to her trust being shattered. Thank goodness the wee grandson is okay.

This is not about you it's about your daughter's grief and hurt.
So please don't take it personally

welbeck rather good advice there.

They've grown up.
To an outsider it looks as if you are too involved in your daughter's family life.
Or trying to be.
As others have said you need to stand back.
You seem to pour all your emotional energy into issues re your daughter.
Her children. her ex. Her dealings with other relatives.
What about your own marriage.
You mentioned a controlling husband.
Are you still with him?
Is he your daughter's father.
That may explain some issues.
But have you considered that your over involvement in your daughter's life is a distraction for you from your own situation.
A kind of maladaptive coping strategy? Maybe.
These things are usually unconscious.
But life is brief.
Make the most of it.
Address your own issues.
And leave your daughter to deal with hers.
All the best.

I hope you are right Eugenia. I still think there is a middle ground between being vindictive and inviting the ex and the other woman round to socialise with you.

I hope it works out for you.

theworriedwell, I want to say I do appreciate your suggestions and concerns, but this is something, just so "out there", that I think it's hard for people to understand what kind of weird thing I'm going thru. Man, I was so careful too, in raising them, tried to not have old fashioned ideas, taught them right, wrong and think of others, didn't want them to not understand reasons for some discipline, etc. Tried the whole gentle parenting before it was even a thing. I know at one point in time, I was super close to them and super proud of them, told them every day. Encourged and supported them, drove them to college, gave them what I could long after they were grown. They seemed fine with me, and I felt love. Now none of that is true anymore. I'm stumped.

Summerlove

Luminance

Why would a comment about a new step parent be related to you at all Eugenia? I am rather unsure how you came to that conclusion?

You and I both.

There is so much I’m not understanding.

In that conversation that we had, which was basically on how awful I was, she used the step parent (actually, she's not, SIL and her are not married) as a comparison directly to me......she actually did relate this person to me! And yes, I don't even understand it! It's completely mental.

And it would be insane for her to estrange over something she judged me as being the bad guy for when I correct it. But, the expectations put on me are insane, so who knows? I could pick out the wrong socks and she might estrange. I'm being real careful; but if she is encourging me to not be vindictivly avoiding my son in law, I'm not going to avoid him and really, no doubt might need him on my side some day in the future, unless she knocks off her garbage attitude, to which I hope she will. But I'm not holding my breath, so I'm making alternate plans. To tell truth, my SIL has always appreciated us and mb that can happen again. He knows we are the type to help in all matters, emotional physical and monetary, so I think it won't be too hard but we are taking it slow.

theworriedwell

Eugenia

Sorry worriedwell, I don't actually think I answered your question...how does she feel about it. I can only go by her actions and words. I am concluding she's ok with it by that.
But closer to the 4th, I will let her know the plan; if she's against it, of course it can be cancelled, but then she will have to explain why she lectured me on familys staying together after splits and how I'm holding grudges?

I'd be very careful. I had a member of my family make a similar judgement, "you see him so why shouldn't we" and my reply was I had to be civil with him as we had children, no need for other members of the family to be involved. This was when he and his family were invited to a family wedding and I didn't go and was told I should and that I would go to my children's weddings if he was there and that was true, we sat together at our children's weddings. To me the two things were entirely different, it split my family for a while and in the end it was my ex who told a member of my family it wasn't appropriate and the invites stopped.

If seeing the ex causes estrangement with your daughter are you happy with that? I think that is the question you need to think about.

I don't think you understand. I never came to the judgement, she did. She basically accused me of being a vindictive grudge holding person by not having anything to do with him. You see how that is different from just assuming she's ok with being around him and the girlfriend. I only used the fact they do hang together as an example of how it wouldn't actually be a tramatic thing or something she isn't used to. That's all the comment was about, an example that she wouldn't be thrown into being with the 2 of them if she had been avoiding that. But when someone literally tells you that your shunning of her ex is wrong and vindictive, well, should I continue to be labeled a vindictive ahole or get on board with her way of thinking? I would still have nothing to do with him to this day had she not basically shamed my for doing so! I know, this must be hard to wrap around your head, because I don't believe this stuff half the time either myself.....it's insane.

Luminance

Why would a comment about a new step parent be related to you at all Eugenia? I am rather unsure how you came to that conclusion?

You and I both.

There is so much I’m not understanding.

Why would a comment about a new step parent be related to you at all Eugenia? I am rather unsure how you came to that conclusion?

Eugenia

Sorry worriedwell, I don't actually think I answered your question...how does she feel about it. I can only go by her actions and words. I am concluding she's ok with it by that.
But closer to the 4th, I will let her know the plan; if she's against it, of course it can be cancelled, but then she will have to explain why she lectured me on familys staying together after splits and how I'm holding grudges?

I'd be very careful. I had a member of my family make a similar judgement, "you see him so why shouldn't we" and my reply was I had to be civil with him as we had children, no need for other members of the family to be involved. This was when he and his family were invited to a family wedding and I didn't go and was told I should and that I would go to my children's weddings if he was there and that was true, we sat together at our children's weddings. To me the two things were entirely different, it split my family for a while and in the end it was my ex who told a member of my family it wasn't appropriate and the invites stopped.

If seeing the ex causes estrangement with your daughter are you happy with that? I think that is the question you need to think about.

Deedaa

It sounds to me as if the daughter is suffering from bereavement. It's five years since my husband died and it has changed so much about the way I do things. There are so many things that I realise I've stopped doing, because we used to do them together. My advantage is that I have always hosted Christmas, so I have control over the way it's done and I can make changes without anyone else noticing or commenting. So far no one has accused my of being selfish because of things I've done or not done, but I wouldn't take it very well if they did.

We did skip the usual Thanksgiving and Holiday stuff the first year. It's been 5 years, and all along she has been fine with any family stuff. It was a matter of this year after we did our Christmas Eve Day (the father has them on Christmas, as he works Christmas Eve) my daughter was just lounging on the couch and suddenly decided this year, for some unknown reason, going to my brother in laws house, which is 5 minutes away (we usually only stay like 2 hrs), was going to be "too much" for the kids. The kids were fine. They had gotten a bit loud playing withe their uncle, my son, but settled quickly. I think she just wanted to go home and no doubt sit on her couch checking her phone all evening. She just doesn't care anymore. My grandson really wanted to go and he, luckily, asked nicely. When he protests anything with her, she usually doesn't listen to him. It was luck he did it right, the poor little guy was down about not going, it was obvious. If he had approached it too strongly, she would have said no. Sometimes I wonder how much she cares for her kids, too, when it really comes down to it. I was a different kind of mom, she is so much tougher I guess I was too soft, cared too much about their feelings. I feel like some kids grow up appreciating that but some don't, just my luck I guess.

Sorry worriedwell, I don't actually think I answered your question...how does she feel about it. I can only go by her actions and words. I am concluding she's ok with it by that.
But closer to the 4th, I will let her know the plan; if she's against it, of course it can be cancelled, but then she will have to explain why she lectured me on familys staying together after splits and how I'm holding grudges?

theworriedwell

There is something in between. I wasn't interested in my mother hating my ex but I didn't like them being best friends either. If she'd invited his new partner round that would have been the end of her seeing me.

You haven't said how your daughter feels about it.

She has commented to me that families have learned to get along, do things together despite splits. I did mention ok, in the future, but she didn't really give me a lot of imput. However, she has in fact been going places with the kids and her ex (always with GF in tow) when it's a school thing or whatnot; it's not like my daughter avoids them and has acted like it's perfectly fine the 3 of them (sometimes 4 with her boyfriend) go places. In fact, last summer she knew I had told her that the next time the kids want to visit the yearly fair, I would like to go too. Next thing I know, end of summer, she goes to it with her boyfriend, my son in law and his girlfriend! She didn't even ask me and seemed to have no problem being with them. Clearly doing things all together isn't a problem for her. Part of the issue is, too, that in one of our usual you suck mom, don't do enough type of conversations, she mentioned how great the girlfriend of her husband is with co parenting, how helpful she is! I was like what?? She's better at co parenting than me? How on earth am I a co parent anyway......I'm the grandma for pete's sake....but I am more than willing, I'm on call 24/7 for anything because I love helping with the kids, emergencies, non emergencies, you name it!! I have been there for her needs and will again. I was so hurt that she actually indicated the woman who stole her husband was a better person than I was. Actually, that's not just hurtful , it's also delusional!! I realized that day that my daughter just isn't all there in her head, putting a mistress above her own mom in character. Who does that? Really, I wonder if the trauma has been so bad that she is in some sort of delusional denial. I mean, example, one day , when we were having casual converstion about marriage, she mentioned to me she played a part in the breakup because it's always 2 people....I didn't say one word against what she said......I could have.....because in her case, it was not 2 people, it was 3 people! And it was herself who told me nothing major was going on as far as their marriage went when I asked her what could have gone wrong. She said she was so shocked when he left too. No indication he was intending to do that. Only a few small arguments because he had gotten bored of helping with their toddler son at the time and wanted to spend more time after work at work....hmmm well the girl he met at his work, so..........pretty clear the real issue was. So, I really, between what she told me about me holding grudges, and how she herself hangs with them sometimes, and how the girlfriend/mistress is perhaps treating her better than her own mom, I don't think this should be an issue with her if we all get together on the 4th of July. If it is, fine, I will take away the invite this time, but I'm not going to be dictated anymore by her on who I associate with. Even my husband, who has usually defended her, is fed up as she treats him awful too sometimes. So we are both actually moving forward to have a relationship with our son in law; it's slow starting, we haven't been at it long. The gradual goal is to have him in our lives to some extent. We are not stupid people.....our daughter could decide someday to cut us out, hopefully it will never happen. I am trying . But if it does, we may need our son in law. I would hate to have to resort to being around the girl who ruined our lives, but again, grandkids are worth it.

It sounds to me as if the daughter is suffering from bereavement. It's five years since my husband died and it has changed so much about the way I do things. There are so many things that I realise I've stopped doing, because we used to do them together. My advantage is that I have always hosted Christmas, so I have control over the way it's done and I can make changes without anyone else noticing or commenting. So far no one has accused my of being selfish because of things I've done or not done, but I wouldn't take it very well if they did.

There is something in between. I wasn't interested in my mother hating my ex but I didn't like them being best friends either. If she'd invited his new partner round that would have been the end of her seeing me.

You haven't said how your daughter feels about it.

theworriedwell

How does your daughter feel about your relationship with her ex? My mother did this, in fact his whole family were visiting her and it was all lovely. In the end I asked her to choose, she did choose me but I felt she was so disloyal to me to be friends with this man who had hurt me so much.

I know, right??? I SO AGREE with you!! I feel as you do...I didn't not want to be disloyal to my daughter. I had nothing to do with him, even though he and I got along wonderfully and I had not one word good to say of him to anyone when it happened.! But after awhile my daughter turned that on me and said I was a bitter person, vindictive, etc. for my attitude! I couldn't believe it. So I told her well fine if that's how she feels then I am done. Now I extended the olive branch to the point where now I invited him to this years 4th of July..yes I live in the states. It will make me cringe to have that girl in my house but I know he won't come without her. He accepted the invite and said it would be great, the kids would love it. My daughter wants me to stop acting bitter and vindictive towards him...she's got it. I only did it to stand by her. Hopefully she can live with her decision.

Thank you Diamond Lily

Mamasperspective

I think what is needed here is a little more empathy on your part. You seem very focused on how this impacts you and other family members ... it doesn't matter what plans were made, if she is feeling upset and depressed and not up to it then so be it. It doesn't seem like it's personal but you're choosing to take it that way. I would ask her to go for a coffee together or take her for a nice lunch one on one. Somewhere quiet where it's just a mother and daughter sat together with no kids around. Please do not talk to her about how you feel or how it's impacting you, put the focus on her. Tell her that it must be super difficult for her right now and that, as her mother, you can see she's upset and not her usual self and ask if there's anything she needs from you or anything you can do to support and help her through this. Tell her you want to listen to her and help her process this grief. Give her a hug. Be a shoulder to cry on. Please don't give advice such as "You just need to move forward" or "You need to distract yourself with other things" or "You need to move on" (this really isn't helpful!) just allow her to feel how she feel and be there for her. If she doesn't feel up to doing something, don't judge her for it, just accept it and move on but she hasn't got the capacity to give 50% to this relationship at the moment so she may need you to pick up a little more of the effort. If you use this as an opportunity to truly bond with her, then if you find yourself in a situation where you can't give 50% then she can give more and support you. Hope all works out for you both - she must just feel heartbroken right now and she's doing her best to put on a brave face when she likely doesn't feel like facing anyone.

Thank you for your advice, but it's all been done by me in the last 5 years since it happened. The empathy, the offers of support and help, letting her stay away from other family events without a fuss that first whole year. The last few years it's all been about what she needs. Yet she has rejected me anyway, she never takes me up on treating her and her alone to a lunch, a movie, etc. I don't see her now except on visits with grandkids. It's been a gradual disconnect between us. I can do not right in her eyes. I have tried to accept I do not have a daughter anymore. We are not technically estranged physically but emotionally, very much so and that is 100% her choice, not mine. Before the breakup of her marriage it was like she couldn't get enough of me. Her husband too...thete were times when I would actually bow out gracefully of some invites of places to go because I told them they should have private family days with their new son once in awhile. I would catch the next trip. I was thrilled they wanted to include me and hubby when he wasn't working and we did do alot together. On top of that my daughter and I went out together for lunches and such. It was wonderful.