Estrangement isn't only non contact. It's lack of empathy and love. It's selfishness.

But there's a lot of difference between the food we need and a desire for food that means our whole life revolves around it and we're enraged when it's not supplied that's spot on Lathyrus .

Love is an interesting thing. Children tend to love their caregivers because they need them and rely on them for many things. Children also learn from their parents, they learn to love by being loved, they learn to trust by being around the trustworthy. They learn to be giving by being around the generous. They learn to nurture by having their needs met. They also learn to hurt by being hurt and to neglect others by being abandoned. I don't believe as a parent myself I need my children or grandchildren to love me, my survival does not require it, I am not dependent on them for my needs as a fully functioning adult. I rather want my children to love me and I am quite aware that in any adult relationship that love must be earned as must respect.

I think it hinges on what we see as need.

I mean we all need food to be physically healthy like we all need the reciprocal love that enriches and fulfils us.

But there’s a lot of difference between the food we need and a desire for food that means our whole life revolves around it and we’re enraged when it’s not supplied.

Bottomless emotional need is like that condition where people eat but never feel full. Her daughter couldn’t meet all her need for love so Eugenia is transferring her need to the Grandson. I think that’s very worrying.

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We're just going to have to agree to disagree ENM.

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Dorrain

Hi Eugenia, its good to hear you're seeking professional help because sometimes we lack objectivity and then we tend to keep making the same mistakes in an estranged relationship.

I joined Gransnet a couple of years ago due to estrangement with my younger son, and to be honest the initial feedback shocked me. Like you I felt I had done nothing but try to be there for my son.

After a few days I realised there was some truth to the advice being metered out so I decided to do some research online. I found an American doctor, Dr. Joshua Coleman and initially I was sceptical but desperate enough to take the time out and listen to his advice. He was estranged from one of his daughters and I could sense his personal experience taught him a lot about the subject.

He suggests a Letter of Amends, and importantly to accept the mistakes I made. We have to be the bigger person, to be the grown up and reflect on our own issues before going any further.

The Letter of Amends helped me see my mistakes, and I was horrified at the way I'd approached my son. I sent the letter via email and he responded with a lengthy reply pointing out other hurts I was unaware of which I accepted.

I spent a lot of time in 'The Room Full of Mirrors', reflecting on how my own ego was the source of a lot of disagreements.

Over time our relationship has improved tremendously although occasionally I slip back into my old ways of thinking. I do think twice now before I respond, I keep my nose out of his and now wife's business and only offer advice if asked.

Recently they presented me with my third grandchild, my first granddaughter and I feel blessed to be able to share time with them.

Personally I feel that I have grown as a person and I feel much calmer and at peace with myself. If I start getting antsy I listen to Dr. Coleman's videos and reset my expectations.

The links are below, I didn't buy his book because I found him engaging and his advice makes sense.

Good luck with your daughter, put yourself in her shoes for a couple of days while listening to Dr. Coleman and write the letter, it was the best thing I could have done.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-DmpQPXSgk
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLLk8vcAD0M
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l9ggEKpLY0

Best wishes

Thankyou so much for these youtube suggestions Dorrain
I have watched the one with the Rabbi it was truly enlightening

Thank you Lathyrus .

Perhaps I should have said that my post was responding to EnmeshedNoMore. She posted in response to the OP saying all I would need is a hug and an I love you mom once in a while that mothers don't need anything from their children but of course we all need to be loved don't we.

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With respect Smileless (and I genuinely mean that) there is nothing needy about you.

The fact that you son has been free to make a life in Australia, half a world away, without any recriminations or guilt, and that you have a loving and close relationship with him, testifies to the quality of your parenting that has always put him first.

I think your definition of need is very different to the OPs.

Of course parents need to know that they're loved by their children. Just as a child loves to be hugged and told they're loved by their parent(s), parents love get a hug from their child and be told that they're loved.

There's nothing needy about it, it's perfectly normal in a loving and healthy parent/child relationship. Our DS lives in Aus., we face time regularly, tell him we love him and he tells us he loves us too.

We long to see him again and have a hug, just as he longs to see us and be hugged.

OP, you seem to be feeling defensive right now, as any of us would after getting so many comments disagreeing with us. It's very difficult to get negative feedback. But I hope you will read through some of the constructive advice.
It seems to me that you took your daughter's heartbreak to heart, as a parent would, but that you felt it so strongly that you unfortunately made the situation about yourself. You went to her crying, and she may have felt you were not being supportive, as you imagined, but instead expecting her to support you. You have talked a lot about how hard it was for you, how friends said you were lucky your children cared for you so much, the way you have needed your grandson's affection. It all seems a little bit back to front.
I know so little about your situation of course, but you mention an unhappy marriage and perhaps you have relied upon your children putting you first where your partner should have been in that role.
Good luck OP.
There's currently a useful thread on reconciliation and reflecting on your own part in that which you may find helpful.

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It's clear you've put me in the box you put your own mother in. So no matter what I say you have decided I am "acting" and am exactly like your mother. I am not to expect love, want it or deserving of it at all in your book. A mother is a hollow being to you....undeserving of what every other human being on the planet needs...to be loved. The dehumanizing of mother's in today's society is just another symptom of a devolving, souless world. You sound like a horrid person.

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Hi Eugenia, its good to hear you're seeking professional help because sometimes we lack objectivity and then we tend to keep making the same mistakes in an estranged relationship.

I joined Gransnet a couple of years ago due to estrangement with my younger son, and to be honest the initial feedback shocked me. Like you I felt I had done nothing but try to be there for my son.

After a few days I realised there was some truth to the advice being metered out so I decided to do some research online. I found an American doctor, Dr. Joshua Coleman and initially I was sceptical but desperate enough to take the time out and listen to his advice. He was estranged from one of his daughters and I could sense his personal experience taught him a lot about the subject.

He suggests a Letter of Amends, and importantly to accept the mistakes I made. We have to be the bigger person, to be the grown up and reflect on our own issues before going any further.

The Letter of Amends helped me see my mistakes, and I was horrified at the way I'd approached my son. I sent the letter via email and he responded with a lengthy reply pointing out other hurts I was unaware of which I accepted.

I spent a lot of time in 'The Room Full of Mirrors', reflecting on how my own ego was the source of a lot of disagreements.

Over time our relationship has improved tremendously although occasionally I slip back into my old ways of thinking. I do think twice now before I respond, I keep my nose out of his and now wife's business and only offer advice if asked.

Recently they presented me with my third grandchild, my first granddaughter and I feel blessed to be able to share time with them.

Personally I feel that I have grown as a person and I feel much calmer and at peace with myself. If I start getting antsy I listen to Dr. Coleman's videos and reset my expectations.

The links are below, I didn't buy his book because I found him engaging and his advice makes sense.

Good luck with your daughter, put yourself in her shoes for a couple of days while listening to Dr. Coleman and write the letter, it was the best thing I could have done.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-DmpQPXSgk
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLLk8vcAD0M
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l9ggEKpLY0

Best wishes

To continue....well, we are normal and normal families have issues here and there. for example, if my husband was angry at one of my kids, he would blame me for their actions, and I'd better tell them to knock it off, even when they were older! Blame shifting the therapist called it. If one of them was angry with him, they'd tell me it's my fault for allowing him to act the way he does...can you imagine, if I could actually stop him from being himself, what an all powerful being I would be! Or any of them. Here I sit, the almighty controller without one bit of power. It's the perfect scapegoat scenario. I had no clue while it was happening all these years, because somehow my loving/caring for my kids seemed to be enough for them. After the failure of my son's short term marriage, things got a bit strained with us too, but seemed to still be ok. But with my daughters marriage, that's when I was no longer enough, my love was not enough, and I was an easy target to control, verbally abuse and punish because after all, she couldn't do one thing to punish her husband. And nobody else would put up with any of this but me. Point is, all I would need is a hug and an I love you mom once in awhile and all is forgiven and forgotten. But that, I suppose, is too much to ask, because it never happens. Yet despite it all, I still try to do that for her, the hugs, I love you's, the offers for help seem to just go over her head. And now, she says negative things to my grandson, who does seem to care a lot for me. At least until she takes that from me too.

A few here have tried to give what I would say is good advice, some even offered apologies and empathy. Thank you for that. The rest, well, looks like you can't buy a clue. Like one person here saying a professional wouldn't use certain words....haha, no kidding, you think? I didn't say she used those words, at all. I was attempting to describe her reactions when I told her things my daughter has said or done to me....idk, I think 'appalled' might be a good description I used, since I saw her mouth fly wide open at one point? Yeah, that surprised me too, as most therapists have very stoic, game faces if you will. Flabbergasted, a deer in headlights....oh yeah, deer in headlights also describes the look on her face. Anyway, then she described some terms like scapegoating, blame shifting and gaslighting to describe my daughter and actually my husband as well, although he is not the main discussion but he has played a part from my kids youth when he started always yelling at me (god forbid we actually talk like adults) and claiming I lied because he knows my feeling about everything, I mean, can you imagine feeling one way then have someone tell you that you are actually feeling the opposite, thus a liar? My kids grew up with that in their heads, but I chalked it up to a young marriage with kids right away, and mb my husband wasn't ready. Alhough he did tell me right when we were married I had better not lie to him like his mom did to his dad a lot. Boy, that huge red flag just whizzed by my head, I was young in love and thought nothing of it, of course I wouldn't, why would I? I often wondered why my mother in law would, but over the years I saw a very controlling father in law, so Idk mb she did it to survive, to avoid his wrath? I'm not sure, I never felt the need to pry into their marriage. But apparently it effected mine and my kids, eventually, over the years. Despite the low opinions of me by my husband, my kids seemed to be fine with me, we were very close actually, both of them. People would tell me how lucky I was to have kids who cared so much for me and how we got along so well. It was true, I was thanking God everyday. I sure miss those days.

Wow, that's what you got from what I said? You should get some help, really. Get out of the gutter. Idk, after being verbally abused, neglected, physically pushed around because I cried, publically criticized for every little thing, blamed for all her issues and then tossed aside, maybe even the best moms might sound like me. And I was the one her friends were jealous of. I was there for her all the time....maybe that was part of the problem, she took it for granted.

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