I am just gonna get real about this whole estrangement thing...

Really can’t see the point of this thread. There have been disfunctional families since the beginning of time. Seems to me that providing you are judgemental or interfering then families can rub along ok

Summerlove

^Has anyone suggested that simply ending a relationship could be abusive User?^

Perhaps not on this thread, but people have often suggested that walking away and ending a relationship without explaining why is abusive. They have suggested that when the reasons have been given but are not “good enough” or “wrong” that the ones left behind have been abused.

Of course.

Really there is no need to explain and listen to outside opinions. Walking away is a viable option and not at all abusive.

Yes Luminance when I read the link I could see the study was from the perspective of EAC. Nothing wrong with that of course, but in your post you said it was the the largest research done into estrangement so I was expecting it to be from both perspectives.

Those of us who say they don't know why they've been estranged have never been told why, so whether or not the reasons given in the article would be pertinent to them is questionable.

Those reasons that are so very unknown? I don't understand what it is meant by this; are you implying that those of us who say we don't know are lying?

@M0nica - that was uncalled for.

Oh yeah..I'm right here. "Fashion" or epidemic?

Well said. Thank you.

I wrote about it once on mumsnet and nearly got lynched by them. I was a vile parent etc. I never ever abused my daughter but their dad was a wife beater to me. I protected them from all of that or did I? I will never know because she will have no contact with me. It’s now over 10 years. It hurts.

Smileless2012

^mismatched expectations about family roles and relationships^ can work both ways. AC's unrealistic expectations of their parents can result in their parents being estranged.

An area of research which is important to give a balanced view of estrangement which the link you have provided is unfortunately lacking Luminance.

'Stand Alone' has done and continues to do important work and research into estrangement however, being focused on the perspective of EAC it is not without bias and 807 respondents is rather small, especially if this particular study is considered to be ^the largest research done into estrangement'.

That's a rather unexpected response. It is from the perspective of those who do the estranging, that's the perspective that needs to be understood by those who have been estranged is it not? Those reasons that are so very unknown?

Eugenia, all of this is so concerning - you have a seriously warped view of reality and what is right and what is wrong. You are arguing with everybody and not accepting that you van be wrong on anything.
When my kids were small, I always told them : fall out with one person, well, everyone does that......fall out with two people, ok, that's really unfortunate..... fall out with three people & you have to start looking at yourself. Please do. Listen to what people are saying to you.
What is it in you that pulled you towards an abusive man to marry? Please, please, stop arguing & challenging people, & instead look inwardly at yourself & work on that. You must be unhappy with your current situation, so do something within your control to change it.

Hithere

"Because my grandkids make me happy."
Again, it is about what you want then

" And they are also happy to be loved by me and their grandpa."
Kids do not know what is good for them sometimes - their parents are in charge

Their grandpa who by OPs own words is abusive.

Has anyone suggested that simply ending a relationship could be abusive User?

Perhaps not on this thread, but people have often suggested that walking away and ending a relationship without explaining why is abusive. They have suggested that when the reasons have been given but are not “good enough” or “wrong” that the ones left behind have been abused.

My heart goes to out to your daughter, who I'm pretty sure would be completely estranged by now if the US had affordable childcare.

I wish you could realize your faults, primarily for her sake but also yours. But from personal experience, pigs are more likely to start flying than a narcissist becoming self-aware to take accountability for their actions.

Try and ask yourself this. Are you a good role model for mothers? What would the world be like if every mom strived to be more like you....

Just about anyone can have kids, but not everyone should.

Eug, you're way too immature to be creating new life. It's crazy that you think children should also love their parents unconditionally, regardless of the fact that they had no say in your relationship with them or even existence. Even so, you're unable to love her unconditionally, as your love primarily hinges on her loving you back.

Also, there is a world of difference between "not being vindictice" (towards her ex) and inviting him and the homewrecker to family holidays. But you'll never take accountability for it because ultimately you only care about the narcissistic supply you get from your children and grandchildren.

Your daughter used to be your primary source of supply, but now that she's older and wiser (thus able to finally realize your toxic family dynamics); you've latched onto her children to get that sweet sweet supply. Going so far as betraying your own child (i.e. making a connection with her cheating ex) to ensure access to that supply.

You really should not have had kids if this is how you think. I would go so far as to say that you're a terrible grandmom and an even worse mom.

Eugenia

Sadly, imo, you seem hellbent on continuing to see your grandchildren, whether anyone else, including your daughter, thinks just because it makes you happy and you’ll “do what you friggin like” Can you not see this kind of statement is damaging and maybe your manner has upset your daughter?

I wish you both luck moving forward, but please remember these are your daughters children not yours and she must make any decisions respective of you.

Eugenia we all know what you have told us. Have a good look at yourself and try to work out why your daughter feels as she does.

theworriedwell

Eugenia I've tried to see your point of view, I've tried to offer some constructive ideas but no more. You collude with your daughter's ex, the woman he left her for and now you are gossiping with his mother. Well yes if his mother is normal she is going to see it from his point of view, she will accept the "reasons" he has given for having an affair and leaving his pregnant wife. Whatever your daughter was doing he didn't need to have an affair he could just have been a grown up and walked away and he certainly didn't need to get her pregnant.

I can't have any more sympathy with you, you aren't a good mother, I can't believe a mother would do what you have done and if I was you daughter you would never see me or my children again.

I hope she gets through this OK and limits the damage you can do to her daughter, the not favoured grandchild.

No problem. I have not collided with anyone. I am entitled to the truth of what went wrong. She has been extremely abusive to me to the point I can believe she may have abused her husband....that doesn't not justify what he did but I won't allow her to keep abusing me using her children and telling me I am wrong to not accept her husband. I am a good mom, but enough abuse enough crying enough blame shifting everything onto me. Enough bad mouthing me to her son. I am done with it. So believe what you will, you have not idea and I am not going to spill all the abusive things she has done to me over her failed marriage...and it isnt just me either but I am the focus. So, no problem. H

Eugenia I've tried to see your point of view, I've tried to offer some constructive ideas but no more. You collude with your daughter's ex, the woman he left her for and now you are gossiping with his mother. Well yes if his mother is normal she is going to see it from his point of view, she will accept the "reasons" he has given for having an affair and leaving his pregnant wife. Whatever your daughter was doing he didn't need to have an affair he could just have been a grown up and walked away and he certainly didn't need to get her pregnant.

I can't have any more sympathy with you, you aren't a good mother, I can't believe a mother would do what you have done and if I was you daughter you would never see me or my children again.

I hope she gets through this OK and limits the damage you can do to her daughter, the not favoured grandchild.

Grams2five

Have you considered that to her eyes you are a bad grandmother ? One who prefers the golden grandson you “just click with” to his younger sister? Perhaps by pointing out your, in her eyes , poor behavior she’s making sure it doesn’t go unnoticed? Would you prefer she simply cut contact ? Honestly I do feel badly for you , you seem unwilling to even entertain a narrative you’ve not told yourself - rightly oe wrong your expectations don’t match hers clearly. It’s clear from these posts how exhausting the visits must be for you both and I can’t believe she’s still doing it for the kids at all. Consider it a massive gift , and get on with it. And truly find a better counselor that hopefully can help you see things more clearly and cope with the reality you find yourself in not the expectations you had before the grandson you so adore also finds your expectations to be exhausting

I don't care if she thinks I'm the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler; you don't pit children against parent, grandparents, or any good, loving family just because your life fell in the toilet. That's wrong and evil. Her husband did wrong, that's for sure, but just lately some things have come to light via his mother, who became my friend years ago and still is. She's been very supportive of me, but didn't want to tell me some things; lately, I sort of pressed her, in fact this was just this week actually, over 5 years since it all burned down with my daughters marriage. The indication was my daughter was very controlling with her husband too and he was suffering. So this may be a pattern with her; her dad is very controlling. When it happened, I would have never believed she could hurt her precious husband and frankly, if anyone had suggested that, I would have defended her profusely. At this point in time, however, I am not at all doubting that was the truth. My expectations? Very simple, and if a person can't handle them, they might as well give up on all relationships because asking only for a bit of love and some respect isn't asking for the world. Everyone deserves kindness; even old, outdated moms.

Hithere

"Because my grandkids make me happy."
Again, it is about what you want then

" And they are also happy to be loved by me and their grandpa."
Kids do not know what is good for them sometimes - their parents are in charge

Hey, I'll friggin do what makes me happy....everyone else does. At least I don't hurt people doing it. Oh and they don't know what's good for them....like I and their grandpa are not? Judgemental much? You don't know anything.

Have you considered that to her eyes you are a bad grandmother ? One who prefers the golden grandson you “just click with” to his younger sister? Perhaps by pointing out your, in her eyes , poor behavior she’s making sure it doesn’t go unnoticed? Would you prefer she simply cut contact ? Honestly I do feel badly for you , you seem unwilling to even entertain a narrative you’ve not told yourself - rightly oe wrong your expectations don’t match hers clearly. It’s clear from these posts how exhausting the visits must be for you both and I can’t believe she’s still doing it for the kids at all. Consider it a massive gift , and get on with it. And truly find a better counselor that hopefully can help you see things more clearly and cope with the reality you find yourself in not the expectations you had before the grandson you so adore also finds your expectations to be exhausting

"Because my grandkids make me happy."
Again, it is about what you want then

" And they are also happy to be loved by me and their grandpa."
Kids do not know what is good for them sometimes - their parents are in charge

Smileless2012

That's it exactly Lathyrus, parents and AC need to work together if a resolution's to be found.

I'm willing. She has made it clear it's all my fault so she doesn't have to do anything.

Summerlove

*I really feel it's the opposite problem. I see my daughter and she's not there. Someone else is and I don't like that person.*

Time to let her go then. Let her family go free without any expectations on them.

Why punish everyone by forcing a relationship that makes you so miserable?

Because my grandkids make me happy. And they are also happy to be loved by me and their grandpa.

Oh well I’ll have to disagree that it’s normal not to alter your expectations when things don’t work out the way you imagined they would.

Because that’s what expectation is. It’s an imagining. It only exists in the mind.

Surely when faced with the reality of a situation the normal thing would be to adjust. We do it every day don’t we in multiple situations.

Lathyrus3

The whole point about mismatch is that it involves both parties. It wouldn’t be a mismatch otherwise.

Finding a solution will involve both parent and child being prepared to alter their expectations and being able to put aside their grievance at not getting what they wanted.

If one or both refuse to do that there is no way forward.

Perhaps people don't want to alter their expectations in regard to their own children. We didn't want to alter our ways, hear daft opinions and advice. That's normal for fully functioning adults.