I am just gonna get real about this whole estrangement thing...

Eugenia you already have a thread running on, your personal experience of these issues. Do we need another?

I dont have estranegment in your life, I am just reading things online.

I get some of your points.

I have been shocked by, as another poster put it on another thread, societal assumption that the parent is the one always in the wrong.
As I put there and here, that is absolute rubbish.

You could be right about a child being spoilt[I think that is what you are saying].
You are undoubtedly right that not every child or person has perfect behaviour.
You are right that everyone needs to look in the mirror, whether estranged or not.

Your points that jumped out at me the most.
That it was never heard of 70 years ago, or whatever. Interesting.
That psycologists may be saying wrong things - I have no idea, but I am guessing you may be partly right at least.
Most of all? - forgiveness and understanding. - you are so right on that score. Without forgiveness in society in general, it is society loss - both in general, and from person to person.

M0nica

Eugenia you already have a thread running on, your personal experience of these issues. Do we need another?

Surely nobody is forcing you to stay on this thread..

I think you’re absolutely right Eugenia and there may be a few parents out there as well as a few adult children that would be better off apart but generally speaking this estrangement thing has got out of hand and the word toxic sprayed around like water from a hose.
It’s a fashion that has taken off by selfish self centred people.

I think we never heard about it years ago is because when people moved they just "quietly" dropped contact. If asked how x was they said "oh very busy" or "we don't write often" or "we rarely hear from them" etc. It was years before I understood that this had happened to people in my own family.

It didn't impact me at all as a child but it deeply troubled my mother.

Eugenia estranged families are in the minority. Most of us see out children and grandchildren just like you do. Some relationships are strong and some more wobbly but we muddle through. I have 4 adults children have close relationships with 3 but one is more critical. At family get togethers we offer to get our violins out of he's in a mood. He's very close to one brother who puts him right.

On the other hand my husband was often no contact with his mother who was convinced she was the greatest mother ever. She was toxic, wanted to be over involved in everything and was often very inappropriate. So estrangement isn't new and yes sometimes parents who think they are wonderful aren't.

fancythat

I dont have estranegment in your life, I am just reading things online.

I get some of your points.

I have been shocked by, as another poster put it on another thread, societal assumption that the parent is the one always in the wrong.
As I put there and here, that is absolute rubbish.

You could be right about a child being spoilt[I think that is what you are saying].
You are undoubtedly right that not every child or person has perfect behaviour.
You are right that everyone needs to look in the mirror, whether estranged or not.

Your points that jumped out at me the most.
That it was never heard of 70 years ago, or whatever. Interesting.
That psycologists may be saying wrong things - I have no idea, but I am guessing you may be partly right at least.
Most of all? - forgiveness and understanding. - you are so right on that score. Without forgiveness in society in general, it is society loss - both in general, and from person to person.

Thank you. For most of us, an apology isn't even necessary either for the hurt and pain; just for them to stop doing it and I love you mom is plenty enough. If they can't even do that, something is wrong with them, not us. Yes, it's really hard to believe; like I said, my parents would be shocked and dismayed if they were alive right now. Thank you for your thoughtful caring reply.

Oreo

I think you’re absolutely right Eugenia and there may be a few parents out there as well as a few adult children that would be better off apart but generally speaking this estrangement thing has got out of hand and the word toxic sprayed around like water from a hose.
It’s a fashion that has taken off by selfish self centred people.

Fashion...yes, that's the perfect analogy! It almost seems like its the cool thing these days to be estranged. Some wear it like a badge of honor, always telling strangers how they went no contact with their family. It's horrible. I understand if there is abuse, neglect, but......

NotSpaghetti

I think we never heard about it years ago is because when people moved they just "quietly" dropped contact. If asked how x was they said "oh very busy" or "we don't write often" or "we rarely hear from them" etc. It was years before I understood that this had happened to people in my own family.

It didn't impact me at all as a child but it deeply troubled my mother.

Like another poster said, it's become fashion for selfish people. I think in those days, if families didn't get along, they would not write often/rarely get together, but it's the all out done for life stuff that is newer I think. I'm sorry some of your family was affected by it and for your mom who suffered from it.

theworriedwell

Eugenia estranged families are in the minority. Most of us see out children and grandchildren just like you do. Some relationships are strong and some more wobbly but we muddle through. I have 4 adults children have close relationships with 3 but one is more critical. At family get togethers we offer to get our violins out of he's in a mood. He's very close to one brother who puts him right.

On the other hand my husband was often no contact with his mother who was convinced she was the greatest mother ever. She was toxic, wanted to be over involved in everything and was often very inappropriate. So estrangement isn't new and yes sometimes parents who think they are wonderful aren't.

Are they? Well, I hope so. I do think you are talking about something other than zero contact estrangement in your situation. But does sound like your husband is in that catagory. Although, I can't judge his situation; I have heard of mothers who need to be involved in everything but I do wonder if there is a reason. As we age, and especially if we lose a partner, it's lonely. Old age itself is a lonely feeling, just knowing you are on the road to nowhere but the end while the younger folks are living the dream we once had. So I cannot judge his mother's reasons. I do know there are entitled parents, which is a whole different thing too. But I feel adult children today don't try to even figure it out and snap to judgement very quickly. Could it be entitlement, could it be plain loneliness. Could it be fear...of dying....surronding yourself in you kids lives helps that I think; keeps your mind young. So who knows really, except those who don't bother asking. Parents and kids; neither is wonderful but should just love each other anyway. At least that's what I believe.

Oreo

I think you’re absolutely right Eugenia and there may be a few parents out there as well as a few adult children that would be better off apart but generally speaking this estrangement thing has got out of hand and the word toxic sprayed around like water from a hose.
It’s a fashion that has taken off by selfish self centred people.

I agree. But I think it also rises from child rearing practices that said every child should have a 'perfect' childhood and many parents then did everything for, and gave everything to their children, so that the whole family ran round the children.

This kind of upbringing inevitably produces selfish children, because they ahve never had any need to consider other people and just expect their parents to meet their needs, whatever they may be. When they get into the outside world and discover that it is not like that and that everyone is not going to run round them all the time and parents cannot sort everything out for them, they turn on their parents and see their failure to 'right' the world for them as a failure in their love for them, so turn on them.

Eugenia seems to be one of so many estranged parents posting on GN, who say 'I did everything for them (their children) , why are they treating me like this'

Every time I see some new child rearing practice being promulgated that tells parents things to do to ensure their children have the kindest, most perfect, stress-free childhood, I sigh with despair. Only today a report has come out saying that the rise in childhood mental health problems is due to children's lack of resilience, resilience develops when children have to cope with difficulties and too many children are protected from every kind of stress and then when a problem does arise, often quite minor, they cannot cope. . www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gp19n111vo Adult children then turn on their parents and blame them when the world doesn't treat them like their parents did

I appreciate what you're saying but I think, regardless of the reasons for estrangement, if an adult child/young family were happy with a parent in their lives and enjoyed spending time with that person then they would have that parent in their lives.

I appreciate it's often very hard for the estranged parent but many seem to see it now that life is too short to have someone in it who makes them unhappy, regardless of whether they are a blood relative or not.

If life is calmer, happier, less drama and feels more fulfilled without one person putting a 'fly in the ointment' of their little family, that's often why estrangement will last for years. There's just no benefit to having that person around.

To rug sweep or blindly forgive just because someone is family may bring the estranged parent more happiness yet make those who have decided to go no contact miserable so they choose to look after their family as a whole before prioritising the needs of any extended family on either side.

I'm certainly not saying this is the case for all situations but the motivation to be a part of that little family's life often seems to be 100% from the estranged parents side whereas the little family can carry on as normal with no motivation to interact with the estranged parent and often without giving it a second thought.

I understand that may come across as a direct point of view (I apologise for that) but this is just the understanding I am taking from reading/watching lots (and lots!) of content around estrangement which may provide some context in response to your post.

Yes Monica I think there’s a lot of truth in what you say.A parent has to be kind and loving but also strict in some matters as a child who never hears ‘no’ will nearly always be a spoilt person.Since he/she will hear ‘no’ outside the home they need to be thwarted sometimes within the home.It makes for a better and more well grounded adult.

I'm not sure I was very clear up above.
I think families/parents were estranged in my youth - but generally, neither side admitted to it. They weren't really getting letters or having family who were "very busy" - they were not going to discuss the real situation.
It was like anything painful... brushed under the carpet.
My mother's pain was for her brother actually. I loved him a lot and so did she but when his son returned maybe 30 years later after her brother doed she couldn't reconcile.
It was never called estrangement.

Oreo

I think you’re absolutely right Eugenia and there may be a few parents out there as well as a few adult children that would be better off apart but generally speaking this estrangement thing has got out of hand and the word toxic sprayed around like water from a hose.
It’s a fashion that has taken off by selfish self centred people.

This.

Mamasperspective

I appreciate what you're saying but I think, regardless of the reasons for estrangement, if an adult child/young family were happy with a parent in their lives and enjoyed spending time with that person then they would have that parent in their lives.

I appreciate it's often very hard for the estranged parent but many seem to see it now that life is too short to have someone in it who makes them unhappy, regardless of whether they are a blood relative or not.

If life is calmer, happier, less drama and feels more fulfilled without one person putting a 'fly in the ointment' of their little family, that's often why estrangement will last for years. There's just no benefit to having that person around.

To rug sweep or blindly forgive just because someone is family may bring the estranged parent more happiness yet make those who have decided to go no contact miserable so they choose to look after their family as a whole before prioritising the needs of any extended family on either side.

I'm certainly not saying this is the case for all situations but the motivation to be a part of that little family's life often seems to be 100% from the estranged parents side whereas the little family can carry on as normal with no motivation to interact with the estranged parent and often without giving it a second thought.

I understand that may come across as a direct point of view (I apologise for that) but this is just the understanding I am taking from reading/watching lots (and lots!) of content around estrangement which may provide some context in response to your post.

Well, what sucks about that is , sometimes the drama is created by the adult child. Our drama started when her husband left her while pregnant and with a 2 year old to shack up with a 21 year old. They both were in their 30s. Suddenly I did everything wrong. With the grandkids. With my opinion of her husband...even that was wrong. Yep, stood with my daughter and against him, but somehow that turned into me being vindictive/grudge holding. Guess I should have applauded his decision? I would do something she didn't like IDK could be anything minor and she would start the overcriticizing. I would apologize anyway even if it was normal and without any intent of malice but she wouldn't let it go without a lecture on how dumb a mom I was. So the drama was induced by her...so then she is justified for no contact? I don't think so. I am the one in my family who's always avoided drama, it's not my thing but I get dragged into it unwillingly so I am the problem.?Yeah...no. I think the only reason there is still contact is I stopped letting her do that. Learning through therapy how to stop apologizing, state facts and leave it at that before arguments escalate. So actually if anyone's life would be better without someone it would be me. I want to walj away from the abuse.
Unfortunately I love my grandkids. And despite how angry fed up I am...still love her too but I am starting to feel I don't need her drama and hate anymore. Yet it would take very little from her for me to forgive the pain she's caused me. But seems that little is too much to ask.

My sister estranged our whole family for seven years. She had serious mental health issues. She only received treatment after she went out of her house with a knife to kill her mother in law. Thankfully she was intercepted by her husband. Although the long lasting treatment improved her condition, she has never truly recovered fully. Mind you, she had difficulties in her relationships long before that, going right back to her childhood. My mother grieved deeply during those years. Our mother was far from perfect but I loved her deeply and am still grieving her death which was two years ago. My sister was only interested in the money and actually accused me of being likely to withhold her share. As if I could, the estate was going through the solicitor, who intimidated that he understood that she was unreasonable. As a result I no longer have anything to do with my sister, although I had little to do with her before mum died due to her behaviour.

Oreo

I think you’re absolutely right Eugenia and there may be a few parents out there as well as a few adult children that would be better off apart but generally speaking this estrangement thing has got out of hand and the word toxic sprayed around like water from a hose.
It’s a fashion that has taken off by selfish self centred people.

Although I do get your point, I think those who are estranged, through no fault of their own, or those that did have thoroughly awful upbringings, may not see things quite this way.

One thing with which I do agree though is that sometimes some parents “overlook” poor behaviour in their children leading to “entitled” adults with no understanding of boundaries or consequences.

I don't know if it was common, but estrangement definitely did happen in the boomers generation and before that. My mum who is currently in her 80s estranged her adult son (my brother) in the 1980s. She refused to have any contact with him, his wife, and his son for a few years. She also refused to allow me (I was still a child) to have contact with them, and as a result she didn't meet her first grandson until he was older. The estrangement was instigated by my mother and not my brother - he tried to contact her but she would hang up the phone and tear up the letters etc. Her reason for estranging him was that he got married and had a child against her wishes.

I also work with someone who is in her 60s who was estranged by her own father a few decades ago- although he referred to it as disowning her. He wrote her a letter to tell her that she was disowned and that he would no longer have any contact with her. His reason for estranging her was that he didn't like the man she married and wanted her to go to university.

One thing with which I do agree though is that sometimes some parents “overlook” poor behaviour in their children leading to “entitled” adults with no understanding of boundaries or consequences.

I do see some of that amongst the estragement threads.

"I did everything for them when they were young" type thing, and "this is how they repay me".

Once a child is spoilt, I think the clue is in the name.
They are spoilt.
From what little I have seen in real life, there seems no getting back from that. For anyone.
At least, I have never witnessed it. Sadly.

I think it is difficult for people to understand if they have not experienced it. It seems to be easier to blame the parents than the child. There are poor reasons for estrangement, as shown above, with parents estranging because they didn’t like the child’s choice of partner, but I would think that very unusual today.

I do believe mental health issues or Personality Disorders are probably a big factor in estrangements these days. That is my experience with my sister. This is not readily acknowledged. It’s easier to blame the parents.

Eugenia why do you think that as a person who avoids drama you are always getting dragged into it? Maybe you are unwittingly part of the problem but if you can't examine that is will keep on happening.

My husband did love his mother which was why he'd relent after a period of estrangement and see her again but she couldn't stop. So things like we invited her to the nursery nativity to be at our house for 10 am. She arrived at 8 am so I'm not dressed, seeing older child off to the school bus, supervising ,3 year olds breakfast and breastfeeding baby. She couldn't see why we weren't thrilled to see her but the result was the following year we didn't invite her and had a stress free morning. She probably complained to her friends that we were so unreasonable inviting her to something and then not being very welcoming when she arrived. She was always doing things like that and just spoiling things for herself.