I am just gonna get real about this whole estrangement thing...

That's it exactly Lathyrus, parents and AC need to work together if a resolution's to be found.

I really feel it's the opposite problem. I see my daughter and she's not there. Someone else is and I don't like that person.

Time to let her go then. Let her family go free without any expectations on them.

Why punish everyone by forcing a relationship that makes you so miserable?

This all seems rather manic.

BlessedArt

“Unconditional love…parents are supposed to have it but children aren’t?”

Did children ask to be born? Do they come to the decision to be conceived by committee?

The fact that you think it’s reasonable to hold children to the same obligations as a parent is the root cause of most estrangements. You don’t get to decide to have children and expect them to suffer whatever personality issues you have for life. Younger generations are choosing mental stability in this short life over relationships they didn’t choose.

I say this as a woman whose nephew is choosing the happiness and stability of his own nuclear family over bending to the dramatics of my sister—whom I love dearly but is her own worst enemy.

Our children do not owe us their happiness. I am a mother. I am a grandmother. The things I read on Gransnet sometimes shock me as far as the lack of self-awareness. Blaming psychology is exactly why younger generations do not feel the relationships cannot be salvaged. Zero accountability is looking everywhere but yourself. No one is perfect. No parent, no child. But no one owes anyone their happiness and mental health. Deciding not to have contact with the people who brought you into this world signals that there is a wound so incredibly deep that choosing to walk away is the healthier option for that individual. We are allowed to protect our peace. Your judgement is a textbook example of why people give up on relationships. Blaming everything from science to estrangee themselves, but zero personal responsibility.

Children not asking to be born has nothing to do with the fact unconditional love is expected to be a one way street in society today. And how do you know I've had zero personal responsibility? Even though I have tried to adjust to her demands aka yes, one week hey mom, zuchinni muffins are a health treat you can give the kids and two weeks later mom, why are you giving the kids that junk food zuchinni muffins, and it's simply not my fault she can't make up her mind, yet find myself apologizing, taking personal responsiblilty over things I can't even figure out why. I cannot tell you how many times I have apologized, looked at ways I could improve and serve her needs, put myself out when she needed my help.......where is her responsibilty to at least give me a break?? Give me the benefit of the doubt, like she would any stranger on the street. Protect our peace...well, I am the one who needs that, not her. I only stick around because I love the grandkids so much, I won't abandon them over her abuse of me. Personal responsibility....that's just laughable. The only thing I think she owes me is just decent humane treatment, like she gives everyone else she barely knows. Could it just be that this younger generation has been indocrinated into this sort of cold selfishness because there is a lot of money in psychology so spread around that it's ok to have no loyalty to anyone, even people who have your interests at heart and love you. God your post wrecks of judgement and lack of understanding. No wonder there is more crime, suicides, drinking and drug problems these days; no humanity much left.

Luminance

I'm rather sorry for saying it but your daughter probably finds you a brick wall to talk to that cannot beat her, I find it frustrating myself.

Well, you assume I actually talk to her. Last time I tried that 4 years ago, well rather, asked if she would talk to me as I wanted to support her during her crisis, she yelled at me I was not good enough to because I choose poorly in a husband (her dad) and when I looked hurt, literally shoved me out her door. Never again. Talking about kid's stuff and the weather isn't really talking is it?

Lathyrus3

I do don’t much like it when my parents in law told my other children that their brother was useless and had something wrong with him. And they started repeating it.
Only supervised contact from there on in.

What people say matters.

Well yeah, that was pretty bad what they said. Unusually cruel too.

hear her, unortunate mistake

I'm rather sorry for saying it but your daughter probably finds you a brick wall to talk to that cannot beat her, I find it frustrating myself.

theworriedwell

Eugenia

User138562

The idea that simply ending a relationship could be abusive is so so toxic and controlling.

Ending one with someone who loves you just because you don't like what th say or think, or do not do as you command in itself is controlling and toxic. Kinda like cancel culture. Well, just wait until someone cancels you that you care for.

Well one of the occasions my DH went no contact with his mother it was because of her trying to cause trouble. She announced, in front of me, that I was having an affair and my husband needed to know about it. We just looked at each other, he knew I wasn't and I knew I wasn't. It wasn't the reaction she wanted so she went on to prove my affair.

I worked in a predominantly male environment, we generally referred to the higher ranked staff by their surnames, I assume this was a tradition from when it was all male and lots of men had gone to boys schools where that was the norm. When talking about I worked I referred to one man by two names, lets say Harrison Smith. The use of his first name proved I was having an affair. The only problem was his first name wasn't Harrison his first name, was John, his name was double barrelled so Harrison Smith was his surname.

Now fortunately my husband knew Harrison Smith and when she gave this explanation he started to laugh which infuriated her and she got very unpleasant. At this stage I was pregnant so the accusation was particularly nasty and her aggressive attitude was particularly inappropriate.

So do you think he was unreasonable to say he didn't want to have anything more to do with her, was he being controlling or toxic just because he didn't like what she said? I think she was actually very lucky he eventually forgave her and let her see our children although I could go on and tell you how inappropriate she was when he brought her to the hospital to meet her first GC but in truth there are so many stories I'd be here all day.

What they say or think....meaning, nit picking. It was a generalizaton. Clearly, your husband was not upset at his mothers mere opinions or beliefs in general, which is what I meant. Your MIL clearly was trying to break up your marriage, clearly she was very suspicious you would do wrong by her son. She overstepped big time and really, I admire your husband for not shutting her out forever. That's a forgiving heart. And I mean forgiving in the sense she did do something horribly wrong in this case......she did not give an opinion or give a grandchild an extra cookie without permission; this was the the usual nit picky thing some parents consider a capital offense of grandparents. She made a very, very serious accusation, that in some marriages could have been the beginning of the end! Luckily you and your husband are secure with each other, so it had no impact. But it had malicious intent. I can only imagine being that bold to attack anyone my kids were married to....nope, I'd never do that.

Lathyrus3

The whole point about mismatch is that it involves both parties. It wouldn’t be a mismatch otherwise.

Finding a solution will involve both parent and child being prepared to alter their expectations and being able to put aside their grievance at not getting what they wanted.

If one or both refuse to do that there is no way forward.

Believe me, it's not me. I decided at one point to about face, forward march, do what she usually expected of me to the letter. Have been doing it for quite awhile now and the result? She still finds a way to complain. Finds new things. And, she still tries to make me look like a bad grandma in my grandson's eyes. Once he told me she said that exact thing, that I am a bad grandma, over something that ended up a simple misunderstanding. Well, that broke it. She could have said she didn't approve of what he interpreted I said to him about a particular subject one day, she could have said she didn't agree. That would have been fine. But she told him literally I was a bad grandma, behind my back. Can you imagine if I didn't agree with something she did and then behind her back told him she was a bad mother? Why is it acceptable to do that to me? It's not acceptable is the answer.

Luminance

Eugenia The more I read of you the more clearly I can see that you are pulling the wool over your own eyes.
Rather a lost cause I might say.

I really feel it's the opposite problem. I see my daughter and she's not there. Someone else is and I don't like that person. I suppose if I wanted I could excuse her behavior, ignore it, pretend she isn't hollow inside. Yes, a lost cause, because she has damaged my love for her. I still have it, but I am finding now that I simply do not care as much about her feelings anymore. Don't care if she has more disappointments. I am drifting away from her in my heart and it's just not right.

The whole point about mismatch is that it involves both parties. It wouldn’t be a mismatch otherwise.

Finding a solution will involve both parent and child being prepared to alter their expectations and being able to put aside their grievance at not getting what they wanted.

If one or both refuse to do that there is no way forward.

Babs03

Am late to this debate so apologies if I repeat anything, have not read through all posts, but feel I have the gist.
Eugenia have advised you on another thread to step back for your own well-being, loving/caring for your daughter and GCs is blinding you to the obvious. You need sone space as of yesterday and nothing will improve imho until you do.
As for estrangement having always happened, I believe it has, but I think that over the past couple of decades this has become much more commonplace, indeed has been estimated that one in 5 of us will experience estrangement. I don’t believe that was the case in the past. Perhaps we just talk about it more now, or as Smiles has said we talk about it more because it has become so much more commonplace. Who knows?
I do think that some of this is down to a far more disposable society where relationships are promptly ended if somebody isn’t happy with it anymore. Have read various agony aunt columns where those posting are quickly advised to cut off from anyone who gives them a hard time, from good friends to family members. And am pretty sure that people online advise a similar approach. Whether counsellors or therapists advise this is debatable but as with everything else some are not as professional as others and not subject to the same monitoring as other professions.
Some have to estrange for their own personal safety and sanity but if it is true that 1 in 5 people are experiencing estrangement I find it difficult to believe all these cases are down to personal safety/sanity, something else is going on here.

Disposible society. Rings true. People apparentely want to be surrounded by yes men, whether they are fake or not, as long as they say yes.

Smileless2012

^mismatched expectations about family roles and relationships^ can work both ways. AC's unrealistic expectations of their parents can result in their parents being estranged.

An area of research which is important to give a balanced view of estrangement which the link you have provided is unfortunately lacking Luminance.

'Stand Alone' has done and continues to do important work and research into estrangement however, being focused on the perspective of EAC it is not without bias and 807 respondents is rather small, especially if this particular study is considered to be ^the largest research done into estrangement'.

Bravo!! Very wisely, you hit the head on the nail....AC's unrealistic expectations of their parents. Society is so in denial of the lack of the younger generations ability to be flexible that surely it has to be the parents fault. After all, parents are the ones responsible for how the kid turns out. That is only partially true; peers and outside influences make up the majority of what they become in adulthood. Only few are strong enough to resist the need to fit in when they begin adulthood. It's our nature to want to be in groups of our own age. So if you are lucky, your kids encounter good people, do not have severe dissppointing relationships, mb your kids won't look at you as the reason they are alive and unhappy.

mismatched expectations about family roles and relationships can work both ways. AC's unrealistic expectations of their parents can result in their parents being estranged.

An area of research which is important to give a balanced view of estrangement which the link you have provided is unfortunately lacking Luminance.

'Stand Alone' has done and continues to do important work and research into estrangement however, being focused on the perspective of EAC it is not without bias and 807 respondents is rather small, especially if this particular study is considered to be ^the largest research done into estrangement'.

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/brothers-sisters-strangers/202402/statistics-that-tell-the-story-of-family-estrangement

Smileless2012

It's wrong to say without any statistical information to back it up, that in most cases the root cause of estrangement is when parents hold their AC ^to the same obligations as a parent^*BlessedArt*.

Our personal experience of estrangement as the one who estranged, or the one whose been estranged is not a blueprint for all estrangements.

I thought I would look into this myself and the largest research done into estrangement does state "mismatched expectations about family roles and relationships" as a leading cause. I have found a link that places the research done at the bottom. I will add it to the next comment as it looks rather strange when I put it in this one.

Luminance

Eugenia The more I read of you the more clearly I can see that you are pulling the wool over your own eyes.
Rather a lost cause I might say.

I’m afraid I agree

It's wrong to say without any statistical information to back it up, that in most cases the root cause of estrangement is when parents hold their AC ^to the same obligations as a parent^*BlessedArt*.

Our personal experience of estrangement as the one who estranged, or the one whose been estranged is not a blueprint for all estrangements.

Eugenia The more I read of you the more clearly I can see that you are pulling the wool over your own eyes.
Rather a lost cause I might say.

User138562

The idea that simply ending a relationship could be abusive is so so toxic and controlling.

Quite.

Calling someone abusive for not wanting a relationship with you is an abusive tactic. It’s a way to shame and control the other person away from doing what they feel is best for themselves in place of what you want. No relationship where one party is forced to stay out of fear of being called abusive is a healthy one. If you rather trap someone into an unhealthy connection than respect their autonomy to choose freely, it’s a sign of a need for professional intervention in the form of a mental health clinician. It’s not love, it’s control.

“Unconditional love…parents are supposed to have it but children aren’t?”

Did children ask to be born? Do they come to the decision to be conceived by committee?

The fact that you think it’s reasonable to hold children to the same obligations as a parent is the root cause of most estrangements. You don’t get to decide to have children and expect them to suffer whatever personality issues you have for life. Younger generations are choosing mental stability in this short life over relationships they didn’t choose.

I say this as a woman whose nephew is choosing the happiness and stability of his own nuclear family over bending to the dramatics of my sister—whom I love dearly but is her own worst enemy.

Our children do not owe us their happiness. I am a mother. I am a grandmother. The things I read on Gransnet sometimes shock me as far as the lack of self-awareness. Blaming psychology is exactly why younger generations do not feel the relationships cannot be salvaged. Zero accountability is looking everywhere but yourself. No one is perfect. No parent, no child. But no one owes anyone their happiness and mental health. Deciding not to have contact with the people who brought you into this world signals that there is a wound so incredibly deep that choosing to walk away is the healthier option for that individual. We are allowed to protect our peace. Your judgement is a textbook example of why people give up on relationships. Blaming everything from science to estrangee themselves, but zero personal responsibility.

Lathyrus3

Ah worriedwell people who do that kind of thing usually dismiss it as a fuss about nothing don’t they, “she totally over-reacted to something I said”.

As a mother I didn’t think it was good for any of my children to have grandparents that made favourites of some. Toxic for them all.

Oh yes it is always about someone making a fuss about nothing, it was never what she meant.

She even had a favourite with the two GC who were hers, she definitely didn't treat my older two in anyway equally, but with the younger two she definitely favoured my daughter. It seems a horrible thing to say but fortunately she died before my son realised so she didn't manage to damage him.

Ah worriedwell people who do that kind of thing usually dismiss it as a fuss about nothing don’t they, “she totally over-reacted to something I said”.

As a mother I didn’t think it was good for any of my children to have grandparents that made favourites of some. Toxic for them all.

Lathyrus3

I do don’t much like it when my parents in law told my other children that their brother was useless and had something wrong with him. And they started repeating it.
Only supervised contact from there on in.

What people say matters.

Oh yes, I remember an upset 4 year old telling me my MIL had told her she could only love her older brothers half as much as her younger brother because they were only half brothers. Sometimes toxic people do need to be estranged or as you say at least supervised.