I am just gonna get real about this whole estrangement thing...

didn’t much like it

I do don’t much like it when my parents in law told my other children that their brother was useless and had something wrong with him. And they started repeating it.
Only supervised contact from there on in.

What people say matters.

Eugenia

User138562

The idea that simply ending a relationship could be abusive is so so toxic and controlling.

Ending one with someone who loves you just because you don't like what th say or think, or do not do as you command in itself is controlling and toxic. Kinda like cancel culture. Well, just wait until someone cancels you that you care for.

Well one of the occasions my DH went no contact with his mother it was because of her trying to cause trouble. She announced, in front of me, that I was having an affair and my husband needed to know about it. We just looked at each other, he knew I wasn't and I knew I wasn't. It wasn't the reaction she wanted so she went on to prove my affair.

I worked in a predominantly male environment, we generally referred to the higher ranked staff by their surnames, I assume this was a tradition from when it was all male and lots of men had gone to boys schools where that was the norm. When talking about I worked I referred to one man by two names, lets say Harrison Smith. The use of his first name proved I was having an affair. The only problem was his first name wasn't Harrison his first name, was John, his name was double barrelled so Harrison Smith was his surname.

Now fortunately my husband knew Harrison Smith and when she gave this explanation he started to laugh which infuriated her and she got very unpleasant. At this stage I was pregnant so the accusation was particularly nasty and her aggressive attitude was particularly inappropriate.

So do you think he was unreasonable to say he didn't want to have anything more to do with her, was he being controlling or toxic just because he didn't like what she said? I think she was actually very lucky he eventually forgave her and let her see our children although I could go on and tell you how inappropriate she was when he brought her to the hospital to meet her first GC but in truth there are so many stories I'd be here all day.

Am late to this debate so apologies if I repeat anything, have not read through all posts, but feel I have the gist.
Eugenia have advised you on another thread to step back for your own well-being, loving/caring for your daughter and GCs is blinding you to the obvious. You need sone space as of yesterday and nothing will improve imho until you do.
As for estrangement having always happened, I believe it has, but I think that over the past couple of decades this has become much more commonplace, indeed has been estimated that one in 5 of us will experience estrangement. I don’t believe that was the case in the past. Perhaps we just talk about it more now, or as Smiles has said we talk about it more because it has become so much more commonplace. Who knows?
I do think that some of this is down to a far more disposable society where relationships are promptly ended if somebody isn’t happy with it anymore. Have read various agony aunt columns where those posting are quickly advised to cut off from anyone who gives them a hard time, from good friends to family members. And am pretty sure that people online advise a similar approach. Whether counsellors or therapists advise this is debatable but as with everything else some are not as professional as others and not subject to the same monitoring as other professions.
Some have to estrange for their own personal safety and sanity but if it is true that 1 in 5 people are experiencing estrangement I find it difficult to believe all these cases are down to personal safety/sanity, something else is going on here.

DiamondLily

Lathyrus3

If you visit, you’re not estranged.

You just mean you don’t visit as much as you want.

So really your anger is about not getting what you want.

I would call that a tantrum.

That’s a bit unfair, as there are obvious problems 🤷‍♀️

Thank you so much!

Cossy

Oreo

I think you’re absolutely right Eugenia and there may be a few parents out there as well as a few adult children that would be better off apart but generally speaking this estrangement thing has got out of hand and the word toxic sprayed around like water from a hose.
It’s a fashion that has taken off by selfish self centred people.

Although I do get your point, I think those who are estranged, through no fault of their own, or those that did have thoroughly awful upbringings, may not see things quite this way.

One thing with which I do agree though is that sometimes some parents “overlook” poor behaviour in their children leading to “entitled” adults with no understanding of boundaries or consequences.

Very true!!

Eugenia

User138562

The idea that simply ending a relationship could be abusive is so so toxic and controlling.

Ending one with someone who loves you just because you don't like what th say or think, or do not do as you command in itself is controlling and toxic. Kinda like cancel culture. Well, just wait until someone cancels you that you care for.

Not to mention,using children as weapons to do so.

User138562

The idea that simply ending a relationship could be abusive is so so toxic and controlling.

Ending one with someone who loves you just because you don't like what th say or think, or do not do as you command in itself is controlling and toxic. Kinda like cancel culture. Well, just wait until someone cancels you that you care for.

Smileless2012

I agree DL it is unfair to refer to Eugenia's situation as her having a tantrum, there's a lot more to it.

Thank you for understanding.

love0c

I have come to this conclusion with estrangement. In its simplest for, which it is anything but! a difference in thought, deed and perception. A person's thought, deed and perception can and does change through life. Could be altered through stress, unhappiness, mixing with people with a different mindset to that person. Some people are hard if not impossible to manipulate and coheres, some people are very easy to manipulate. Circumstances allow others to manipulate and coheres. When estrangement occurs in a relationship, you can only hope their perception or manipulation ends ant they see things clearly for themselves. I not referring to people who have been abused. I am referring to people who have 'fallen out', to use a simple term.

Difference in thought, true. But we all have difference in thought, don't we? Is that really a reason to create heartbreak I wonder.

eazybee

Or be the slightest bit interested.

Then why are they here? Most of what is posted in these forums isn't exactly thrilling to anyone.

Or be the slightest bit interested.

keepingquiet

Mamasperspective

@MercuryQueen yes I think this is very accurate, plus now there is the internet so access to information is at the touch of a button and communication with others is instant. Estrangement isn't a new 'trend' it's just more widely acknowledged now because (ironically) people have more access to connection with others due to modern technology. I think there is also conflict because, previously, parenting strategies and methods were passed down from generation to generation. Now you can read child psychology studies, safety standards etc at the push of a button so new mothers are educating themselves. That's not to say some old parenting strategies don't apply but some are deemed archaic and unsafe now. That combined with things like lack of services such as NHS dentistry and rising private dental costs means the 'occasional treats' that SOME grandparents just HAVE to give their grandkids is an issue for parents and puts more pressure on. Overall, just better communication (and respect for parenting decisions) would alleviate many (not all) of these estrangement cases.

Yes, the inter-net and particularly social media has played an influential part in this.

I first came to this site because of a family issue I felt compelled to consider as estrangement, when it really wasn't. It was just a breakdown in communication.

I left the site pretty quickly because I felt judged by people who had only a few lines to go on. I didn't want analysis and couldn't reveal personal info so it is hard to take advice from people who don't know the truth of your situation, but think they do.

Once I realised I had little support here I fell back on my family and friends and my own wits and somehow came out the other side. I have had to compromise and search parts of myself I didn't want to see but I got through it.

We love our labels because it makes life so much easier and less complex to stick a word on someone and let that define them forever. Humans are far, far more complex than that but looking inward and facing up to our own weaknesses is just too much hard work. Better to label it.

I am reading the word 'spoilt' here a lot now. This is more labelling, but what does it actually mean? Spoiling is an active verb. We all spoil things, but maybe we spoil ourselves most of all.

The other word emerging now is 'resilience.' We all have a certain amount of resilience if really challenged, it is just easier sometimes to feel we are entitled to more than we really are. There I go again with the word 'entitled.'

This is why I don't comment much on these threads anymore. No one really wants to take advice here- they want 'validation' for their feelings and behaviour and I just can't see things in such a shallow and pretty obvious (to me at least) way anymore.

People can either move on or stay in the same place. No amount of advice from strangers should influence your life to such an extent.

Get the power back Grannies! It is yours if you will only start to see it.

Well, I can agree with this. Feeling judged, yes, because we are either afraid or too tired to give all the facts. People tend to think they do know. Well, I can't help but wonder what everyone here would think if I wanted to take the time to list all the actions and words of my daughter here. Quite frankly, I don't think they could handle it. Or believe it.

Grams2five

NotSpaghetti

I think we never heard about it years ago is because when people moved they just "quietly" dropped contact. If asked how x was they said "oh very busy" or "we don't write often" or "we rarely hear from them" etc. It was years before I understood that this had happened to people in my own family.

It didn't impact me at all as a child but it deeply troubled my mother.

I agree that it absolutely happened you just didn’t hear of it in the same way. People “just moved away”. “Too busy to contact much” etc often enough and some of the time - the reason was 100% estrangement. “Oh they took a job in Australia , and we never hear from them much “ When maybe the reason they did was because they wanted out of the familial ties around their neck. Estrangement has happened over every generation tbey just spoke about it differently . Now it’s more common to hear about bluntly put as estrangement and honestly that’s not all bad. It gives people space to find like minded people for support (like these posts ) and in reality - sometimes estrangement is the right course of action and it being more commonly spoken of may empower those who are in toxic abusive situations to stir the pot and estrange themselves , instead of remaining miserable and feeling they “owe” someone their time and experience simply due to a blood relation.

The problem is, most estrangments are not due to toxic, abusive situations. It's an accepted catalyst for self centered people to lash out at family when their lives don't go the way they wanted. For all my grief, I have yet to think of my parents and say oh if they had raised me differntely or given me more tools to tackle life maybe I'd be happier. NO. I decided my life and if it turns out bad, it's simply not their fault. I recognize some mistakes they made, but they were doing what they thought was right. Nobody "owes" anyone anything when you think about it but a little respect and love wouldn't hurt.

Luminance

Wouldn't it be a rather strange society that forced everyone to have a relationship with people simply because that is what the other person wanted?

Indeed.

Thus just silently walk away, as people have always done.

I was thinking the same thing Lathyrus; great minds .....

Probably time to stop getting involved in other people’s stuff and go and make dinner😁

No worries Lathyrus it's easily done .

Lathyrus3 do please forgive me, your reply was not there when I responded and I was rather horrified at the one before, I believe anyway, this device is slow.

Yes you’re right. I’m conflating from her other thread. Apologies.

I should have posted there.

Eugenia hasn't said she is estranged Lathryus in fact she states at the very beginning of her OP that she isn't.

In fact I rather think that those who are supporting Eugenias tirades are to the same extent lacking in empathy and understanding for the daughter.

How will they feel when they get all the blame? It may cause them to re evaluate their own decision to estrange if that's the decision they took DL.

It may be too late to do anything about it of course, because the one(s) estranged have died or because it's been so long that there's no desire to think about reconciliation.

I don’t lack understanding or empathy but mine is mostly with the daughter who has not estranged her mother in spite of all the difficulties of the relationship.

Oh dear, that's rather lacking in understanding or empathy