I am just gonna get real about this whole estrangement thing...

Underscore

I also work with someone who is in her 60s who was estranged by her own father a few decades ago- although he referred to it as disowning her. He wrote her a letter to tell her that she was disowned and that he would no longer have any contact with her. His reason for estranging her was that he didn't like the man she married and wanted her to go to university.

Oooh, again, that's just so wrong. I never understood parents like that.

Underscore

I don't know if it was common, but estrangement definitely did happen in the boomers generation and before that. My mum who is currently in her 80s estranged her adult son (my brother) in the 1980s. She refused to have any contact with him, his wife, and his son for a few years. She also refused to allow me (I was still a child) to have contact with them, and as a result she didn't meet her first grandson until he was older. The estrangement was instigated by my mother and not my brother - he tried to contact her but she would hang up the phone and tear up the letters etc. Her reason for estranging him was that he got married and had a child against her wishes.

Yes, my point was it was uncommon, of course. So very sorry your mum did that and for what reason? That doesn't ring right with me...as much as I was attached to my 2 kids, when each got married I felt so much joy, not betrayal. Idk, mb I got lucky too, as both married people I did like a lot. Perhaps it's different if the person they marry isn't a person the parent thinks will be good for their kid...idk, I can't really imagine why getting married would make your mum so angry at your brother. Very sad either way.

maddyone

My sister estranged our whole family for seven years. She had serious mental health issues. She only received treatment after she went out of her house with a knife to kill her mother in law. Thankfully she was intercepted by her husband. Although the long lasting treatment improved her condition, she has never truly recovered fully. Mind you, she had difficulties in her relationships long before that, going right back to her childhood. My mother grieved deeply during those years. Our mother was far from perfect but I loved her deeply and am still grieving her death which was two years ago. My sister was only interested in the money and actually accused me of being likely to withhold her share. As if I could, the estate was going through the solicitor, who intimidated that he understood that she was unreasonable. As a result I no longer have anything to do with my sister, although I had little to do with her before mum died due to her behaviour.

Omg. How horrible for your mom. The way she treated you too, after your moms death, really says volumes. That should have been a time to comfort each other, not to engage in baseless accusations. I'm sorry to hear that. It's understandable how you feel.

theworriedwell

My granny was a wonderful wise woman. One of her pieces of wisdom was "you can't spoil a good child with love.". I always tried to remember that with mine and passed the message on to the next generation.

Omg. My daughter needs that quote, she always thinks when I do things for the grandson out of love means he is going to be spoiled. Nevermind what anyone else does, it's just me who's gonna spoil him according to her. Even though I sort of spoiled my kids, my son does seem to have a special conscience about things, but then again, he didn't go through what my daughter has. Goes to show, raise them right but life can change them into different people. Heck, I've even seen something as simple as peer pressure/acceptance change otherwise good kids. Parenting might just be half skill, half plain old luck. Guess I got unlucky. Well, your granny was definately a wonderful wise woman and I agree with her.

I'm no longer sure what this thread is really about.
I thought it was about estrangement being new (which I don't think it is).

My generation, boomers, born from the 50's to 60's, we literally NEVER heard of estrangement.

I agree the word wasn't used.

Is this really about asking why adult children don't look in the mirror and see faults, Eugenia?
I think I'm a bit confused. Sorry if I've not got it.

Mamasperspective

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying she's necessarily justified in no contact, simply that if she has no motivation to have you in her life and she deems it detrimental as opposed to bringing her and her children happiness then she will be no contact. I'm not saying anyone in this situation is right or wrong. With most situations there's normally one side of the argument, the other side and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Many arguments are down to perception and not being able to see the other persons point of view as valid. What I'm simply saying is that if the motivation to have a relationship only comes from one side, there will be no relationship.

Excellent point.

Bit like pushing in a noodle, futile.

I think you are going down a rabbit hole there, especially in regards to your own troubled relationship. This standpoint will do you no good at all. You have no idea at all of others relationships or reasons for them breaking down. I remember when leaving a marriage were considered rather shameful, should we go back to the days of desperately unhappy marriages too? Things change, humanity grows and learns. Now we teach our children what abuse looks like and this saves them from all sorts of rather terrible relationships. Worth celebrating I feel.

NotSpaghetti

Oh yes, underscore - plenty of "disowning" I'd think!

Yes my grandfather was born in 1900, his family were strict Presbyterians in Northern Ireland. His brother went off to Canada to make his fortune and fell in love with an Irish Catholic girl, he wrote home to say he was bringing Bridget Kelly (can't remember her real name but something like that) to meet them before their wedding. His parents knew right away she was Catholic from her name and his father wrote back and advised him not to waste his money. They never heard from him again.

I honestly don't understand how a parent could do that, I can't think of anything my kids would do that would make me disown them. I might not like it, I might not forgive them but I'd always love them.

Oh yes, underscore - plenty of "disowning" I'd think!

fancythat

theworriedwell

My granny was a wonderful wise woman. One of her pieces of wisdom was "you can't spoil a good child with love.". I always tried to remember that with mine and passed the message on to the next generation.

Spunds like "spoilt" dressed up in a different way, using different words.

Sorry if I have got the wrong end of the stick by that post.

I'm not sure what dressed up in a different way means. What she meant was if you do what you do for love it won't spoil a child. Loving things aren't always the easy thing, you can say buying your child a treat is spoiling them but you might feel they have earned a treat and the loving thing is to buy it for them, someone else could buy the same treat because they can't be bothered to argue with a demanding child, that isn't loving and it is spoiling.

I hope that helsp.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying she's necessarily justified in no contact, simply that if she has no motivation to have you in her life and she deems it detrimental as opposed to bringing her and her children happiness then she will be no contact. I'm not saying anyone in this situation is right or wrong. With most situations there's normally one side of the argument, the other side and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Many arguments are down to perception and not being able to see the other persons point of view as valid. What I'm simply saying is that if the motivation to have a relationship only comes from one side, there will be no relationship.

Looking at another post on this tread, I possibly have got things wrong. Sorry again.

theworriedwell

My granny was a wonderful wise woman. One of her pieces of wisdom was "you can't spoil a good child with love.". I always tried to remember that with mine and passed the message on to the next generation.

Spunds like "spoilt" dressed up in a different way, using different words.

Sorry if I have got the wrong end of the stick by that post.

I’m sorry there’s a harrowing thread on GN at the moment, but I’m glad I haven’t seen it. I’ve got enough to deal with in my life right now.
I hope whoever is in that thread finds some peace.

NotSpaghetti

I'm not sure I was very clear up above.
I think families/parents were estranged in my youth - but generally, neither side admitted to it. They weren't really getting letters or having family who were "very busy" - they were not going to discuss the real situation.
It was like anything painful... brushed under the carpet.
My mother's pain was for her brother actually. I loved him a lot and so did she but when his son returned maybe 30 years later after her brother doed she couldn't reconcile.
It was never called estrangement.

Saying estrangement never happened in previous generations is like saying that child abuse never happened then either. They did, they were just hushed up/not admitted to/supressed. I hate this generational divide, this assumption that everything used to be great, there is a harrowing thread on GN at the moment whish will disprove this fantasy that every parent used to be perfect, and are now left bewildered by the fact that their children have cut them off from their lives.

Estrangement is not new. My maternal grandfather went to that USA to tell his younger sister not to divorce. They didn’t speak for years. His mother would have nothing to do with her sister who went to the USA lived happily but liked a tipple. My grandfather also threatened to disown my mother if she left my father.

On my father’s side, my grandmother refused to have anything to do with her younger twin sisters. I only found out about this from my second cousin when we met over Ancestry.

I remember as a child my father and uncle having a massive argument. My uncle and father had been to the pub on a Sunday and came back probably a bit worse for wear. My uncle decided to walk all over my mother’s newly seeded lawn. He thought it was funny but dad didn’t.

They didn’t speak for years until my cousin and I helped the meet up 3 days before my father died. They finally buried the hatchet.

Estrangement is not new but may be the result of different social pressures from those in the past. My 2 older daughters went through a period of not really connecting. The both canvassed me for my opinion as to who was right/better etc. I just refused to become involved in their “stuff”. I’m happy to say they have both stepped back, reconsidered and have mended bridges.

I suspect estrangement today is spoken of frequently to all and sundry, whilst when I was young people merely didn't interact and just got on living lives unencumbered by toxic people.

Once I realized I had a choice, and I didn't have to maintain toxic family relationships, it was over. I chose myself, as many people of my generation are doing. It doesn't really matter what others think about what I should be doing.

I would highly suggest finding sources of fulfillment outside of others. You are setting yourself up for perpetual disappointment.

Estrangement is never going away. I happily encourage others to do what's best for them no matter if they are a parent or adult child. Generational trauma will continue as long as people continue to go along with toxic family dynamics that guilt you into running yourself into the ground to maintain the peace. That's why I'm not doing it.

In the end it doesn't matter whose fault it is. No one is perfect, no. I don't expect my mother to be perfect, but I did expect her to be caring and considerate and she isn't so I'm gone.

Underscore your poor brother. Reminds me of telling my MIL her 2nd GC was on the way. She sort of pulled a face and made a growling sound and went in the kitchen and started smashing dishes. Of course her story was she was so worried about if we could cope and she couldn't see why her reaction had upset us.

My granny was a wonderful wise woman. One of her pieces of wisdom was "you can't spoil a good child with love.". I always tried to remember that with mine and passed the message on to the next generation.

Eugenia why do you think that as a person who avoids drama you are always getting dragged into it? Maybe you are unwittingly part of the problem but if you can't examine that is will keep on happening.

My husband did love his mother which was why he'd relent after a period of estrangement and see her again but she couldn't stop. So things like we invited her to the nursery nativity to be at our house for 10 am. She arrived at 8 am so I'm not dressed, seeing older child off to the school bus, supervising ,3 year olds breakfast and breastfeeding baby. She couldn't see why we weren't thrilled to see her but the result was the following year we didn't invite her and had a stress free morning. She probably complained to her friends that we were so unreasonable inviting her to something and then not being very welcoming when she arrived. She was always doing things like that and just spoiling things for herself.

I do believe mental health issues or Personality Disorders are probably a big factor in estrangements these days. That is my experience with my sister. This is not readily acknowledged. It’s easier to blame the parents.

I think it is difficult for people to understand if they have not experienced it. It seems to be easier to blame the parents than the child. There are poor reasons for estrangement, as shown above, with parents estranging because they didn’t like the child’s choice of partner, but I would think that very unusual today.

One thing with which I do agree though is that sometimes some parents “overlook” poor behaviour in their children leading to “entitled” adults with no understanding of boundaries or consequences.

I do see some of that amongst the estragement threads.

"I did everything for them when they were young" type thing, and "this is how they repay me".

Once a child is spoilt, I think the clue is in the name.
They are spoilt.
From what little I have seen in real life, there seems no getting back from that. For anyone.
At least, I have never witnessed it. Sadly.

I also work with someone who is in her 60s who was estranged by her own father a few decades ago- although he referred to it as disowning her. He wrote her a letter to tell her that she was disowned and that he would no longer have any contact with her. His reason for estranging her was that he didn't like the man she married and wanted her to go to university.