I am just gonna get real about this whole estrangement thing...

I agree it really would be cathartic, it's been such a difficult few years, thank you for your kind words 🙂

I am sure all of us regret estrangement but have to live with it. There will be times it is painful after many years but in time it gets easier. Everyone has some sadness in one way or another.
I like to think my d is happy, married with children. I don't own her and she should be free to make her own decisions. That doesn't stop me wishing things were different. When you become a mother of a son or daughter they are always in your heart, you can't change that.

You could write a letter to your mum but not send it Nana. Doing this can be surprisingly cathartic, it was for me when I wrote a couple of letters to our ES but never sent them and when I was ready, threw them away.

Experiencing the pain that being estranged from your own AC brings must make it even harder to accept and understand your own mother's behaviour.

In both cases there's nothing you can do to change their behaviour so make the most of the family that do care .

I agree that millennials want it all. Now. And won't accept anything less. Well some at least & I think this is where the flavour for no contact comes from.

I have two experiences, I'm estranged not by choice from one of my adult children. This was something I didn't want but they are fixed in their beliefs & I've tried so hard but no more. I have had enough of being judged.
My mother took sides unfortunately & although I wanted to maintain some sort of relationship she wrote a splurge of horrendous messages (with the help of my brother who has never left home now 60) telling me she wanted no contact alongside a lot of abuse. She's actually stopped me seeing my df who is terminally ill, not just me actually but half of his family.
I've always had a difficult relationship with her & she's always been keen to blame everyone else for her own decisions, she could never ever be wrong about anything.

I have always been amazed at how she's lived her life, she's like a child, she's lived like one & she'll die like a child too.
I've thought about writing to her but what good would it do? She literally doesn't care. Hard as it is, that's the reality.
I'm just glad I've got other family that do actually care.

icanhandthemback

^Yes, I think I am learning sometimes things unsaid are best left unsaid.^
Yes, I think deep down they know when things aren't right themselves so it can hit a nerve even when you are trying to help. When I look at my daughter's husband, I recognise a lot of traits her father had. She wouldn't appreciate me telling her but she complains about them all the time!

I think it could be resentment, it's really odd though because the target of the verbal abuse was never her.

She probably lived on a knife edge waiting for him to start on her. My daughter is explosive and although she hasn't targeted some of her siblings, they remain wary and have distanced themselves from her. She can't understand why she doesn't have a great relationship with them because she has never treated them badly. It is perhaps more complicated than we realise. She may also think you are weak because you tolerated the abuse. She won't realise the dynamics between the abuser and the abused because she hasn't suffered it.

She thinks I am weak...yes I agree. Not understanding the dynamic, yes as well...personally if you told me when I was young that I would put up with something like that I may have said no way. It's just something you think will get better and sometimes it actually does...for awhile, then people tend to slip back when circumstances change. By the time you realize its too much, it's been too long and other factors are also to be considered. My son had the idea if I divorced he wouldn't have to deal with him anymore. Truth is he most likely would have to live with him because I made the mistake of having kids too early before I got a career (it was the 70s when that wasn't always mecessary) so without no means I wouldn't have been able to have a place with them. Most likely I would have had to live with my parents and my kids with him. So yes it's hard for people to know the pitfalls and reasons people stay in situations that may not be ideal....and that isn't just marriage either it can be lots of different things. Life throws alot of curveballs but even skilled batters don't see it coming.

theworriedwell

DiamondLily

As it should be. 😉. I always support my adult ACs and GCs. 👍

Shall we share a shovel?

Probably yes, but hopefully not. It’s quite normal, in my mind, to do that 🤷‍♀️😉

Yes, I think I am learning sometimes things unsaid are best left unsaid.
Yes, I think deep down they know when things aren't right themselves so it can hit a nerve even when you are trying to help. When I look at my daughter's husband, I recognise a lot of traits her father had. She wouldn't appreciate me telling her but she complains about them all the time!

I think it could be resentment, it's really odd though because the target of the verbal abuse was never her.

She probably lived on a knife edge waiting for him to start on her. My daughter is explosive and although she hasn't targeted some of her siblings, they remain wary and have distanced themselves from her. She can't understand why she doesn't have a great relationship with them because she has never treated them badly. It is perhaps more complicated than we realise. She may also think you are weak because you tolerated the abuse. She won't realise the dynamics between the abuser and the abused because she hasn't suffered it.

sazz1

I could so easily have gone no contact permanently with my late MIL. She did her utmost to split us up, including setting up my OH with her friends daughters and an ex girlfriend by inviting them to parties at her house.
With our 6 week old baby at her home I walked into the back room and saw him in an ex's arms. She told me to stay in the other room with our baby and leave them alone. I rang a taxi and left with the baby. He stayed the night at his parents. Never spoke to my inlaws for 6 months after that but OH had a bad accident so I did contact them. Hated them until they died. I rarely visited but OH took the children to see them every few weeks.
His friends actually warned me about her saying she split him up from every girl he was serious about, and don't let her do this to you.

Wow. I have to say, that's pretty messed up. Why on earth would a mother want to see her kids' marriage fail, is beyond me, really. It sure isn't fun when it actually happens.

icanhandthemback

^We should be able to discuss or reveal our feelings.^

That very much depends on the circumstances. If your daughter doesn't want to hear what you think about the person who hurt her, that is her prerogative.

Once, after she yelled at me because I offered, if she wanted, to talk about her ex with me, that she would never because of my choice of husband

That sounds very much like resentment if she observed that. My daughter was in much the same position with my abusive husband. That has damaged her and I have to take responsibility for that. She has been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder and what she experienced, either in the womb or as a young child, may well have contributed to that. She has moments where she estranges me. Last Christmas was when her brother said something. She didn't speak to me for 5 months because I couldn't remember what he'd said...it wasn't even something I'd done. I think her anger has to go somewhere and she doesn't feel able to confront him because she doesn't know how he'll react. Consequently I am her whipping boy. However, at the end of the day, she is my daughter so when she feels she is ready to return, I let her. It isn't what I wanted for us but that's life.

Yes, I think I am learning sometimes things unsaid are best left unsaid. Especially when people tend to turn intent around the wrong way. I think it could be resentment, it's really odd though because the target of the verbal abuse was never her. Even my son got a bit of it, but not my daughter. She was the lucky one, but somehow acts like she was the one abused. Idk, it is hard to know why. I do know her best friend, the sister in law, had a verbally abusive dad so maybe they bonded when they first became friends. This friend is also very much mother hating and jealous of her own brothers. Her mother has the attitude, I'm not changing.
Has a big weight issue, so when anyone mentions in conversation anything to do with nutritionists or trying to lose weight, she thinks it's about her and gets very mad. Sometimes I wish my daughter had a different best friend.

theworriedwell

Well as a mother I wouldn't forgive someone who hurt one of my kids. I can be polite to exDIL for the sake of the GC but buddy up and socialise with her? Over my dead body.

My kids know it, one of them was asked in an excise at sixth form for how far they knew their parent/parents would support them. My child's response was, "If I came home and said I'd killed someone she'd say get the shovels we'll get rid of the evidence." We laughed about it but you know what I'm glad my kids know I've got their backs no matter what and it was only half joking.

The reality is, I really haven't forgived him. But trying to reconnect, not only for kids sakes but to have a backup, because really, I have no idea if things would ever go too far. I don't really intend to "buddy" up or even socialize. Both would mean getting together as friends, talking about things, etc. let's have lunch, etc. and that's not what I have in mind. Simply, to try and not separate so many family functions. And frankly, I would also grab that shovel, to tell truth. Today I went somewhere special and really started thinking. I am so hurt and angry, but my feelings are valiad. I don't have to take abusive behavior....However, someone here said there should be balance and now I'm thinking, perhaps I shouldn't give up. Because lately I have given up. Now what good is that? Continue to be angry and hurt? Or fight back and use my head from now on rather than let emotions rule me. So today while I was out, I picked up a souvieneer for my daughter and sent a pic. I was at Disneyland, one of my favorite places since childhood; went with my parents, my kids, my grandkids and my son even worked there a long time ago as a performer in parades and shows. She loved it and I mentioned we still hadn't gone together without the kids to the Oga's cantina in Galaxy's Edge. To my surprise, she messaged back that she would like to go next week! I have not gone anywhere with just her for fun in 5 years; I have offered many times. I fully expected a wait and see type of answer, but she even gave me a couple dates to see if we can get a reservation. We are keyholders, we have gone with the kids a lot, but there are reservations required now at Disneyland, they never got rid of that system since Covid. I am shocked, I was so low. It's like Disney Magic. I always admired Walt Disney, not just for all his acomplishments but also for his family values. His demeanor was a lot like my fathers. If there is a spirtual world somewhere, mb I was just given some help. I'm going to stay positive because I really can't believe what happened today. I am sure it isn't the answer to all, but it could be a start.

I could so easily have gone no contact permanently with my late MIL. She did her utmost to split us up, including setting up my OH with her friends daughters and an ex girlfriend by inviting them to parties at her house.
With our 6 week old baby at her home I walked into the back room and saw him in an ex's arms. She told me to stay in the other room with our baby and leave them alone. I rang a taxi and left with the baby. He stayed the night at his parents. Never spoke to my inlaws for 6 months after that but OH had a bad accident so I did contact them. Hated them until they died. I rarely visited but OH took the children to see them every few weeks.
His friends actually warned me about her saying she split him up from every girl he was serious about, and don't let her do this to you.

We should be able to discuss or reveal our feelings.

That very much depends on the circumstances. If your daughter doesn't want to hear what you think about the person who hurt her, that is her prerogative.

Once, after she yelled at me because I offered, if she wanted, to talk about her ex with me, that she would never because of my choice of husband

That sounds very much like resentment if she observed that. My daughter was in much the same position with my abusive husband. That has damaged her and I have to take responsibility for that. She has been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder and what she experienced, either in the womb or as a young child, may well have contributed to that. She has moments where she estranges me. Last Christmas was when her brother said something. She didn't speak to me for 5 months because I couldn't remember what he'd said...it wasn't even something I'd done. I think her anger has to go somewhere and she doesn't feel able to confront him because she doesn't know how he'll react. Consequently I am her whipping boy. However, at the end of the day, she is my daughter so when she feels she is ready to return, I let her. It isn't what I wanted for us but that's life.

DiamondLily

As it should be. 😉. I always support my adult ACs and GCs. 👍

Shall we share a shovel?

As it should be. 😉. I always support my adult ACs and GCs. 👍

Well as a mother I wouldn't forgive someone who hurt one of my kids. I can be polite to exDIL for the sake of the GC but buddy up and socialise with her? Over my dead body.

My kids know it, one of them was asked in an excise at sixth form for how far they knew their parent/parents would support them. My child's response was, "If I came home and said I'd killed someone she'd say get the shovels we'll get rid of the evidence." We laughed about it but you know what I'm glad my kids know I've got their backs no matter what and it was only half joking.

icanhandthemback

theworriedwell

Ignore other's shortcomings, tried to understand why a person may act badly and be forgiving of that Maybe that hasn't worked well for your DD. Being forgiving and understanding to people who hurt her isn't a great virtue.

I think there is a balance to be had; it all depends on the level of hurt, their explanations, etc. Sometimes being non-confrontational does you a disservice because without addressing the situation, nothing changes.

I completely agree. We should be able to discuss or reveal our feelings. Once, after she yelled at me because I offered, if she wanted, to talk about her ex with me, that she would never because of my choice of husband (her dad, verbally abuse to me) and I made the mistake of tearing up a little. I didn't even say a word. So she decided to physcially push me out the door and wouldn't talk to me for weeks. I vowed, never ever again. It's pretty hypocritical because she is worse than him.

theworriedwell

*Ignore other's shortcomings, tried to understand why a person may act badly and be forgiving of that* Maybe that hasn't worked well for your DD. Being forgiving and understanding to people who hurt her isn't a great virtue.

I havent' hurt her. Her husband did. Big time. But he's still gold with her. Go figure.

theworriedwell

*Ignore other's shortcomings, tried to understand why a person may act badly and be forgiving of that* Maybe that hasn't worked well for your DD. Being forgiving and understanding to people who hurt her isn't a great virtue.

I think there is a balance to be had; it all depends on the level of hurt, their explanations, etc. Sometimes being non-confrontational does you a disservice because without addressing the situation, nothing changes.

Ignore other's shortcomings, tried to understand why a person may act badly and be forgiving of that Maybe that hasn't worked well for your DD. Being forgiving and understanding to people who hurt her isn't a great virtue.

stillawipp

Eugenia, all of this is so concerning - you have a seriously warped view of reality and what is right and what is wrong. You are arguing with everybody and not accepting that you van be wrong on anything.
When my kids were small, I always told them : fall out with one person, well, everyone does that......fall out with two people, ok, that's really unfortunate..... fall out with three people & you have to start looking at yourself. Please do. Listen to what people are saying to you.
What is it in you that pulled you towards an abusive man to marry? Please, please, stop arguing & challenging people, & instead look inwardly at yourself & work on that. You must be unhappy with your current situation, so do something within your control to change it.

I haven't had a falliing out with anyone that actually knows me except my daughter. But no matter, what you told them is considered an illogical fallocy , which is used very much to win arguments, called "appeal to numbers". My mother had the opposite approach, if all of your friends think jumping off a cliff is a good idea, should you follow? Look, I haven't attacked anyone here until I've been attacked and I am just learning now it's time I defend myself. My husband is learning this now; I've finally, instead of just letting him yell (his abuse was verbal) , I defend myself and if he doesn't listen, I ignore him. And that bugs him more than arguing. For the record, I was not attracted to an abusive man; I had no clue, we only dated a year and we both were super young. I have always been that person to avoid conflict; always tried to see both sides of anything. Ignore other's shortcomings, tried to understand why a person may act badly and be forgiving of that. Well, I suppose there are people who don't appreciate that but rather, take advantage of it... Well, there comes a limit; you can only beat a dog so long, as the saying goes.

Tooyoungytobeagrandma

One of my AV had chosen to distance themselves from me. There is no reason they just said that they might talk to me in the future but for now they are choosing not to. It is hard as there are grandchildren I've not met, a life I only know a little about when their siblings happen to mention them but that's all. I decided that I would not let it spoil my life but that I would accept the situation and carry on. I have divorced their father after an abusive marriage (not witnessed by any of the children ) and and travelling and enjoying my life. This particular child was given every opportunity in life, travel, education, financial help and yet has chosen to remain in contact with one parent (who now rarely visits/contacts them) but not with me. So yes it happens, and sometimes for no reason anyone who knows them/me can understand.

No reason? Perhaps just got boring or inconvenient maybe, did you? No attempt to explain this?.. That's a whole new level...not even an effort put in pretend it's something you did. It's not only heartless but pretty lazy too. I guess parents are now just disposables for the bin.

Babs03

There is a belief held by many who are not EPs that EPs don’t ever question their parenting, or reflect upon it, and believe they are always right. My experience doesn’t chime with this. We questioned everything, went through our parenting with a fine tooth comb, blamed each other, blamed ourselves, reflected and tore our lives apart in search for a way to make things right, we apologised for anything and everything, became completely cowed and reduced to the point we couldn’t go out, in my case I could no longer work or function. And even now after 11 years we question ourselves, as do other EPs we know.
And am sick and tired of hearing this old chestnut being levelled against all EPs.
Also the OP is neither estranged nor imho very well right now. So comparing this particular case with other EPs is just weird.

Perfect truth!

Tooyoungtobeagrandma it's good to hear that you're making the most of the life you have, freeing yourself from an abusive marriage and enjoying your freedom.

It must be even harder when your EAC remains in contact with their other parent. We have no choice but to accept their decision, rebuild our lives and as you say carry on

One of my AV had chosen to distance themselves from me. There is no reason they just said that they might talk to me in the future but for now they are choosing not to. It is hard as there are grandchildren I've not met, a life I only know a little about when their siblings happen to mention them but that's all. I decided that I would not let it spoil my life but that I would accept the situation and carry on. I have divorced their father after an abusive marriage (not witnessed by any of the children ) and and travelling and enjoying my life. This particular child was given every opportunity in life, travel, education, financial help and yet has chosen to remain in contact with one parent (who now rarely visits/contacts them) but not with me. So yes it happens, and sometimes for no reason anyone who knows them/me can understand.

Hmmmm....