Not fully estranged but gaining depth into what it is

Yup, I agree too

It's a shame that your sister can't see that disrespecting her D and her choices have resulted in estrangement Luminance, leaving your niece with the only option of estranging for her own sake.

I hope that having done so her life will be more peaceful and that her and your sister will be able to move forward, living their lives that sadly don't include one another.

I don't think, underneath it all that is what either of them want. That is the shameful thing, my sister's pride getting in the way. I have tried and failed to get through to her. I can't ask me niece to simply put up with it all for my sake. Yes of course both of them have to live with it all but I see the heartbreak here and don't see my sister ever really moving on. I so wish she could see the situation through my eyes and what has gone wrong.

So sad, luminance

fancythat

I think Uk society as a whole
wants a quick fix
Is more selfish
Doesnt want to know or speak to their neighbour, let alone love thy neighbour

I think all of the above helps to feed into the idea that estrangement is not such a bad idea. Sadly.

That is a bit of the truth right there!

stillawipp

I’m really, really not trying to offend anyone here, but I am struggling to understand people who are still estranged arguing that they are still 100% not to blame and are still absolutely entitled to behave the way they did & still do, against people who have successfully reconciled. That seems a bit daft to me! But hey-ho, everyone’s opinions are different. I just chose my son over my perceived right to behave a certain way, that’s the crux of it 🤷🏻‍♀️

I don't think that's really it. Things are not always in a nutshell like that. We don't get the whole picture sometimes.

Here's a thought.....omg......perhaps, they are right, they are not to blame. Mind boogliing, isn't it?

Perhaps the AC was too demanding, no imperfection in was unturned, molehills became mountains and then decided they were going to change the very nature of the parent....my way or the highway. And then when that parent tries to comply, still not enough. New demands or one slip and it's see ya chump.

Ever notice lots of the estrangments come after a new person or situation arises? Suddenly the good parent who they were always close to cannot do anything right.

Standing up for oneself, sure, that happens too, there are mean, judgemental, uncaring parents out there.

But how is it that an AC cannot be capable of being a mean, judgemental and uncaring person? Is there some universal power that puts them beyond mere mortals?

Naw.....I don't buy it. I do not believe even half of the people on this board are the ones who's behaviors caused the estrangement.

If truth be told, maybe a very small percentage at best.

There are so many reasons for estrangement, you have to look at yourself and see how did I contribute to it, can I alter anything, most of us that are estranged just have to get on with it in the end, some take years to see the truth as the truth is so awful. Reconcilliation does happen but it takes both sides, lots like mine are long standing but eventually you reach acceptance and you make a new life. I am sure it must be hard for the one thst initiates estrangement and is warranted in many instances but tell the people concerned why and that its permanent, you owe them that. I realise now why my d did it.

Allsorts, I see where you are coming from, but if you know in your heart that there will never be any going back, I can’t see how any good could come out of a conversation.
It would just be more recriminations and denials.

i think in this age of mobile phones, email, whatsapp etc, one of the biggest problems is that many parents, especially mothers never really seperate themselves from their children when they grow up.

I have talked on other threads about the physical umbilical cord that is detached at birth and the emotional umbilical cord that is severed in adulthood, usually when a AC enters marriage or a long term relationship.

When I went to university, my parents would at best get a letter every week or so, giving them an (edited) version of my life. I was able to grow up, make mistakes, do all kinds of things that would shock my parents and earn their deep disaproval - if they had known about them, all without my mother on the phone, whatsapping me, sending emails etc - and she had to learn to get on with her life with me not there.

In the past if conflict arose between parent and child, the child could just move away, only ring or write once every so often. I had a friend where she and her husband chose a house that was not easy for her mother to get to without a car. She still saw her mother regularly, she was an only child and her father died when she was a child, but her mother wasn't in contact every day or calling in all the time. She could cope with her in small doses.

It seems to me too many mothers are not cutting the emotional umbilical cord. They need to stand back, say nothing, get a busy life, so that their children while still deeply loved, are not the centre of their lives, except in emergencies.

There were plenty of estrangeents or near estrangements in the past. They were just well hidden. two of my father's brothers were virtually estranged, but no one outside the family would have known. One was in the army, married young and used his army postings abroad and to remote parts of Britain as an excuse for rarely seeing or contacting his parents.

For most parents the advice is cut the emotional umbilical cord, leave your children alone, aim at quality in your contact not quantity. Do not try to be part of their adult life, you should both have separate lives, still less offer help or advice unbidden.

I think you are right M0nica, I think part of my mother’s problem was that she saw her own mother every day of her life unless one of them was on holiday.
They were extremely close and my mother once told me, she always felt happy when she saw her mother coming down the road.
Maybe she assumed she would have a daughter like that, big disappointment.

In some cases that will be the issue M0nica but I wouldn't say that parents, especially mothers being unable to separate themselves from their AC is one of the biggest problems.

There are so many reasons why estrangement occurs; the reason I spoke to our ES every day on the 'phone was because he called me.

I wonder how much of a contributory factor this constant reference to not offer help or advice unless asked for is too estrangement. Are some AC really so precious that they're unable to see help or advice for what it usually is, rather than being a criticism or judgemental?

^Here's a thought....omg....perhaps they are right, they are not to blame^; now there's a thought Eugenia.

I am very sure none of us are perfect and there is always something to think about or work on. It can be very difficult to face up to as I understand.

No one is perfect Luminance.

A novel aspect of this kind of forum is that you only will hear one side of the story. Usually that the parent made no grievous errors and everything was just peachy until a friend, therapist, or the crowd favorite; a despicable spouse.

But if you ever listen to the child's side, the cause for estrangement is usually a myraid of abuses. Ranging from simple neglect to brutal emotional/physical beatings (while the ones who were murdered or driven to suicide couldn't comment).

Obviously both sides can't be true as they are polar opposite realities. So one has to ask, which side has the most reason to lie.

I don't see much reason for a child to lie about their parent's behavior when they (normally) stand to gain so much from their support.

I see all the reason for parents to lie (when placed in an uncomfortable position) to make themselves appear/feel good.

Rereading my post, I can already hear one of the rebuttals. That mental illness and/or drugs can make a child lie about their parents.

And I just want to say I find it hard to believe there's an epidemic of good enough parents being disowned because of drugs and schizophrenia.

Especially when I've faced the exact same slander from my estranged parents (when I have successful career centered around critical thinking nonetheless).

I guess it's easier to tell others that your child won't see you because they are just crazy; Instead of the reality, that you were so detrimental to your own flesh & blood, they decided being an orphan was better than staying in contact with you.

Interesting choice of user name sudointelectual, did you intend it as a play on pseudo intellectual?

I find the contrast in posts from EP's from some EAC rather telling. You're estranged from your parents and unlike the responses to an EAC from EP's you'll see here on GN, yours is unnecessarily unpleasant and IMO cruel.

that you were so detrimental to your own flesh & blood, the decided being an orphan was better hat staying in contact with you and you claim to have a successful career centered around critical thinking really!!!

Ah, but there is a false premise in your post SI. You are assuming the child is absolutely rational, reasonable and measured in their response to their parents - and that is the problem, we are not all carbon copies of each other and each child is made from a random collection of genes from two different people and the result can be a rational reasonable person, but it can be someone, who is perfectly rational, no excuses about mental health, but who finds the personality of one of their parents intensely irritating.

The other thing is that memories can be faulty. I have a close and loving relationship with my daughter, now in her 50s. But one evening about 10 years ago, we were chatting and she suddenly switched the subject, and calmly told me all the ways I had failed her as a teenager.

As I listened I doubted the accuracy of some of her memories, and knew that others rose from differences in our biological clocks! I discussed the conversatio privately with my DH and also DS, her brother, both of them came back on several memories, where tey had been present and there memories were the same as mine.

The other problem was that I am an extreme lark and DD is an extreme owl. She wanted to have deep meaningful conversations with me late at night when I could barely keep my eyes open and I had an early rise to get me to work.

Now. I am not estranged, never have been, but I can see how people's faulty memories and genetic make -up can lead to problems that are a long, long way from the calm observant child, judiciously weighing the odds, being judge and jury in their own case and deciding that the parent has been wanting. The parent may have been wanting, but there may have been good reasons.

Sorry sudo, I do think pseudo, is the right word for your reasoning.

Smileless2012

Some people do want estrangement Sara. Sometimes it's the AC's partner who doesn't want a relationship with their partner's parents and doesn't want them to have one either.

Although in the end I did have a lovely relationship with my m.i.l., it was extremely difficult for many years, so much so that I didn't see my in laws for about 7 years but Mr. S. saw them twice a week, and the boys continued their relationship with their GP's through out that time.

Of course, that doesn't apply to you but as we all know, not all estrangements happen for the same reasons and it's not only the cold, unloving and uncaring parents who become estranged.

I agree Eugenia that it does appear to be encouraged. I don't go on mums net but others have said how it's often the 'go too' solution when there are problems with parents or in laws. There are numerous examples on Reddit, another site I don't go on but there have been examples from there posted on here over the years which have been quite disturbing.

There does seem to be a need for quick fixes fancythat. In a society where so much is disposable, relationships seem to be disposable too. Rather than for example, go to the trouble and expense of repairing a household appliance (something I am guilty of ) it's easier and more convenient to chuck it out and get a new one, and it does seem to be that way with relationships.

We do see posts from parents who feel they're no longer of any use to their AC and feel forgotten Primrose. It's very sad and we're so pleased that neither of our parents ever felt that way.

I don't agree that anyone is arguing against those that have reconciled stillawipp your situation was clearly different to ours. You say you chose your son over your perceived right to behave a certain way but it wasn't our behaviour that was the issue, it was as I've already said her jealousy.

It seems a bit daft to me to judge another's estrangement based on your own experience. You seem to be unwilling or unable to accept that although by your own admission, your son estranged you because of how you'd behaved, that that isn't the case for every EP.

Our opinions are more often than not based on our experiences and someone's experience should not be discounted because it's not the same as your own. The sense of disbelief that EP's on GN often come across is unfair and unpleasant.

I've said before how lovely it is that you've reconciled stillawipp and if I remember correctly, you're looking forward to holiday with your son and his family but in order for your reconciliation to have taken place, your son must have wanted you in his life.

Our ES made it perfectly clear that he didn't and although we never thought we'd ever feel this way, we have sadly over the years realised that this is better for us too.

And much credit to you Smileless2012 for not trying to estranged your husband and children from his mother despite your feelings about her at the time! That says alot about your character in so much that I am convinced your ES has no justification. You do selfless things and do not take what isn't yours. I am sorry to say he is a _____, well he is, and it am positive you did not raise him that way. Fault sonetine lays with other bad influences in a kids life, not with the parents, at all.

I would think, should a child's memory differ from our own, that perhaps it still needs to be acknowledged that the way they remembered it has hurt them in some fashion. I believe that lots of things colour memory and perception and the way they feel at the time would have an impact. That is not to say that a parent has directly caused mental discomfort to the point that the child saw a situation differently or felt it differently, just that it is a possibility. You could say that even should memory differ completely, having understanding for the feelings that arose would be rather prudent. The human body is such a complicated system that hormonal imbalance or mental health issues easily impact how any situation is perceived. Were it myself I would perhaps say that my memories of the day were different but I completely acknowledge that the child went through something that day and I wish I could have seen their discomfort and helped in some way.

Smileless2012

That's so funny BlessedArt, posting about rewriting history when you've not only rewritten what someone's posted on this thread, but attributed it to the wrong poster!!!

On page one MercuryQueen posted I can think of several instances ....., that's several instances where AC were disowned, not that AC were regularly disowned.

Yes it happened, yes it was horrific but I've never seen any evidence that it was normal.

Every single point I made stands.
I have zero interest in engaging you some silly semantic filled back and forth nitpicking erroneous details.

Smileless2012

I've already said it was our ES's wife who had an issue with our relationship stillawipp and it wasn't us voicing opinions, it was jealousy pure and simple.

But your son chose to estrange. I think that is indicative that you and he do not view the situation the same.

@stillawip: My sister is working herself into a true estrangement as we speak because she cannot fathom that her son is actively choosing not to allow her interference in his marriage and child rearing with his wife. One thing she has said nearly verbatim is that their relationship was perfectly fine before the influence of his wife. Maybe in her eyes it was, but objectively speaking her level of involvement in the personal affairs of her adult son was not going to smoothly translate over once he became a married father. She views her unsolicited advice as help, but truly it was quite undermining because she and his wife simply had very different ideas about how to raise babies. Your story resonates with me due to my wanting and hoping for your level of self-reflection for my sister so that my family may begin to heal. I just wanted to say that reading your posts gives me hope for her. She’s not a terrible person. She is stubborn and a little self-centered. I appreciate reading that all is not lost in these situations. Thank you sharing your experience

Good post M0nica.

Thank you Eugenia. My husband was very close to his parents and our boys adored their GP's so I would never have tried to interfere in their relationship.

My not wanting and not having contact with them was my decision, it was the right one for me at that time but was no reason for them to stop contact too.

Our ES was aware of his wife's jealousy BlessdArt so he did view the situation the same which is why when I tried to talk to him he said 'we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble'.

Why do people refer to their children ?
They are your Son, or Daughter!
Perhaps that is the reason for some of the
conflict !Treat them as adults !