Not fully estranged but gaining depth into what it is

Smileless2012

Wish there was a maturity test before people are allowed to post on here YEEEESH but hey ho.

Yes, and he or she just caught me on a bad day. But I know this kind of person's intent. Just wish I wouldn't get so angry, doesn't really solve anything.

You don't get squashed down stillawipp you are disagreed with at times which is power for the course on open forums.

It might be an idea to read some of your posts from the perspective of an EP. For me, you have a tendency to virtue signal because you have managed to reconcile with your son. Perhaps unintentionally you make EP's feel they are somehow lacking and majorly at fault because they remain estranged.

Because you are aware of your contribution to your estrangement you appear to not believe anyone who says they don't know why they've been estranged, or did nothing to bring it about.

You seem to ignore the fact that one key ingredient is the willingness of both parties to achieve this.

Hearing from those who have reconciled will always give hope to some but not for all because for some of us there is no hope.
Believe me that's a hard enough realisation to live with, without being made to feel you are somehow lacking because you remain estranged.

YEEEESH

I just finished reading your post.

It's an actual travesty that you were allowed to breed. You had no right to create and raise whole new human beings when your emotional maturity is so heavily stunted!

Wish they had a maturity test before they allow you to parent. Would save so much misery in this world.

Would save alot too if there were not people like you troll. Just give up, your ploy to make me feel like a bad mom, or person, it's just not working. I know what I am. I know good people get stepped on and painted all the wrong colors by others who are either jealous, insecure or narcissists. I have narcisssists in my family and was unaware of it until it was pointed out to me. This included my daughter. So I know what to look for now and fight back. Never, ever did when I was younger. Better to learn late than never.

All you are accomplishing is literally nothing. I'm not even that mad, only somewhat. But I'm just laughing at your lame attempt. Did you think you could make me cry by your lousy judgements? Ha ahahah well I feel bad for others you might hurt by your opinions and I hope Gransnet kicks you out before you do hurt someone.

Smileless2012

You don't get squashed down stillawipp you are disagreed with at times which is power for the course on open forums.

It might be an idea to read some of your posts from the perspective of an EP. For me, you have a tendency to virtue signal because you have managed to reconcile with your son. Perhaps unintentionally you make EP's feel they are somehow lacking and majorly at fault because they remain estranged.

Because you are aware of your contribution to your estrangement you appear to not believe anyone who says they don't know why they've been estranged, or did nothing to bring it about.

You seem to ignore the fact that one key ingredient is the willingness of both parties to achieve this.

Hearing from those who have reconciled will always give hope to some but not for all because for some of us there is no hope.
Believe me that's a hard enough realisation to live with, without being made to feel you are somehow lacking because you remain estranged.

Again, you have hit on something. And yet you are still being understand of why someone might virtue signal.

Personally, if my daughter came tomorrow and said mom, I've been difficult and may still be at times, but I do love you, I might be tempted to shout out to others see, this is how I did it!

That's why it's good to be reminded, that sort of thing can hurt people who don't deserve it. You and many others here do not deserve it. I know I don't and have been told that by the few people in my life that I have confided in about this.

Somehow, circumstances cause things. I know my daughter did not deserve to be left by her husband......she was a completely different person than she is now, I miss that person so much.

That person was sweet, loving to all and he should not have done what he did to her. But.....men. They do love the young ones. They don't always get the opportunity, but my son in law did, unfortunately.

Get help.

Quit relying on your grandkids as emotional crutches.

And quit seeing your abusive daughter. For her sake and yours.

Thank you Smileless2012, any perceived ’virtue signalling’ is, of course, entirely unintentional and merely an attempt to suggest an alternative scenario.
I have every sympathy for EP’s - I was one too, don’t forget!
Just one point though - if I “ appear to not believe anyone who says they don't know why they've been estranged, or did nothing to bring it about.”, I apologise, I obviously haven’t been clear enough on this - I definitely don’t believe it. I once did, when I was in denial about my part of things, but I now don’t. I hope that clears that up.

(Sorry, I meant to add - eg you know why you were estranged, ie the jealousy of your daughter-in-law. )

After more than 12 years, I think we'd both drop down dead of shock if that happened to us Eugenia!!!

It's difficult not to get angry sometimes but if it helps, I try to see the nastiness as a projection of their own pain, an assumption that because they had awful parents and estranged them, all EP's must be awful.

Somehow, circumstances change things yes they do.

Thank you for your response stillawipp.

stillawipp

Thank you Smileless2012, any perceived ’virtue signalling’ is, of course, entirely unintentional and merely an attempt to suggest an alternative scenario.
I have every sympathy for EP’s - I was one too, don’t forget!
Just one point though - if I “ appear to not believe anyone who says they don't know why they've been estranged, or did nothing to bring it about.”, I apologise, I obviously haven’t been clear enough on this - I definitely don’t believe it. I once did, when I was in denial about my part of things, but I now don’t. I hope that clears that up.

I think it's just natural. It feels good to not be estranged, and with anything that feels good or feels like an accomplishment sometimes makes us feel a bit like we know better. We just might, then again, could just be circumstances.

I am beginning to see when things fall apart, it tends to be caused by a bad circumstance here and there. Sort of destiny, but not in a good way. More like dropping the ball when you thought you had a grip. Not remembering to count a full three seconds before starting from a stop light to make a right turn and one day a cop is sitting there. Just bad luck. And misunderstanding about intentions, even facts....that's a big one.

I say 90% of any issue I had with my daughter was wrong assumption of either what was said, what was done, etc. Or what any of it was intended to accomplish. Misunderstandings lead to wrong judgements and then it seems, there is no turning back. More mistakes are born from trying to make sure misunderstandings of intent or actions don't happen again, and somehow this just causes more of the same!!

It keeps happening to me and it's like trying to dig out of a hole while someone is pouring dirt back in! Because for some strange and unknown reason, it builds on itself. Do one thing, oops, try not to do again, mb don't do again but then do something else and ah ha well because you did the one thing, you purposely did the other and the whole cycle continues.

I will never do right by her, not for lack of wanting to, but because it is virtually impossible. I could be Mary Poppins in the flesh and I'd still not get most of it right.

This is part of the reason I have just given up on her and focus on the grandkids, the less and less it seems she wants my in their lives, I still at least have some time with them. I will not keep quiet, I will always respectfully ask for whatever I think I can get. I won't let them drift away like the stories I hear about how gradually some estrangements happened.

As long as my grandkids love me, I won't give up.

Smileless2012

After more than 12 years, I think we'd both drop down dead of shock if that happened to us Eugenia!!!

It's difficult not to get angry sometimes but if it helps, I try to see the nastiness as a projection of their own pain, an assumption that because they had awful parents and estranged them, all EP's must be awful.

Somehow, circumstances change things yes they do.

Oh my! Well don't do that, dead people can't celebrate now can they? With life, you never know though. I'm worried about the grandkids and I do feel if I got fully estranged someday that luckily I could afford to go to court. I know that is no guarentee, but at least the grandkids would know I cared. I would never just give up. I really feel the law should protect grandparents more, just like the law protects parents rights to shared custody as well.

But how wonderful it would be if my daughter decided she cared about me again like she used to! I would almost drop dead too!!

Eugenia

Smileless2012

After more than 12 years, I think we'd both drop down dead of shock if that happened to us Eugenia!!!

It's difficult not to get angry sometimes but if it helps, I try to see the nastiness as a projection of their own pain, an assumption that because they had awful parents and estranged them, all EP's must be awful.

Somehow, circumstances change things yes they do.

Oh my! Well don't do that, dead people can't celebrate now can they? With life, you never know though. I'm worried about the grandkids and I do feel if I got fully estranged someday that luckily I could afford to go to court. I know that is no guarentee, but at least the grandkids would know I cared. I would never just give up. I really feel the law should protect grandparents more, just like the law protects parents rights to shared custody as well.

But how wonderful it would be if my daughter decided she cared about me again like she used to! I would almost drop dead too!!

And I know most likely it is not possible, but if by any chance it is, I pray that someday it will happen for you.....!!! I really do.

YEEEESH

Get help.

Quit relying on your grandkids as emotional crutches.

And quit seeing your abusive daughter. For her sake and yours.

Are you still here? The movies over, go home.

Thank you Eugenia .

Thank you Eugenia - I’m so pleased that you still have your grandchildren, they truly are a joy and a privilege to spend time with. I wish you well x

Smileless2012

Exactly SporeB. Their first child was a baby, he told his brother that he'd told her he'd given up everything for her; presumably he was referring to his parents and his extended family.

Relationships break down for many reasons BlessedArt including coercive control, something that perhaps you should familiarise yourself with before implying that those of us who believe that's the reason for our estrangements are lying.

I wish he had said that, at least it would have been honest. Hurtful yes, but better than a curt note pushed through the letter box on Christmas together with the book we'd bought for our GS's first Christmas, telling us we were no longer a part of his and our GS's lives and were to stay away.

There's never been a relationship where both parties are 100% in agreement in all views on every aspect of the relationship^; what a ridiculous argument!!! Disagreements, agreeing to disagree and compromises are essential to any healthy relationship, that's what we had and it's of no interest to me whether you ^reject that or not.

You consistently reject whatever I say about our experience, it's your modus operandi, something that over the years I and other EP's have become accustomed too when posting in GN.

False memories have been discussed here before Eugenia, and of course not accepted as a reality by those who insist that if you're an EP it must be your fault, and if you say you had a close and loving relationship prior to being estrangement, well that can't possibly be true.

Our ES's wife came from a very dysfunctional family environment. I knew her mother well before they even met so was aware of the dynamic and details of some of what went on.

Following our estrangement, stories filtered through about what had supposedly occurred during our ES's childhood but these were things that his wife had experienced.

As you say, it's not just the parents who suffer. Estrangement is terrible for other siblings and heartbreaking for the GGP's who are also cut out of their GC's and GGC's lives as was the case for my mum and m.i.l.

My m.i.l. had plenty of GC, not that that compensated for the two she wasn't allowed to see but for my mum, they were the only two she had and just as we were never able to experience being GP's, she was never able to experience being a GGC.

It must be stressful Eugenia, constantly monitoring your behaviour because you have that constant fear that you'll be estranged again .

I agree Macadia and a relationship based only on what you think you are owed, or what you believe you owe aren't healthy in fact they're a non starter.

It’s not my M.O to reject everything you say, Smileless. I am merely pointing out a basic truth: People don’t fall out because they agree with each other. The way your posts read, your son had no agency or true issue with anything you did and said. You quoted something he said and I don’t see how you can interpret the words you posted as him relaying that he didn’t think anything you did or said was an issue, and that it was only his wife who was problematic.

I am curious, I think you’ve said before that you were friends with DIL’s parents. Are you still friends with them? What was their take on the fall out? Do they agree with you and your son that he is being coercively controlled and that their daughter is the sole responsible party for the family seperating? Where do they stand?

Eugenia,

I truly hope you value the relationship enough to understand and respect your daughter’s boundaries and role as their mother. Love is amazing but it cannot exist without respect. Many grandparents who seem to want to bypass relationships with the parents fall into the trap of undermining. For the sake of your grandchildren I hope you find enough peace within yourself to avoid the pitfall.

As I've suggested BlessedArt look into coercive control.

When someone's in a coercively controlling relationship, they lose their agency. They are worked on until they're isolated from those close to them who may alert them to what's happening. Coercive control is a form of abuse and all abusers seek to isolate their victim from anyone who may have any influence.

Nothing we ever did or said was an issue which is why he was never able to say anything was, and by claiming you are merely pointing out a basic truth that people don't fall out because they agree with each other is once again rejecting what I'm saying.

He was aware of her jealousy; it was something that we had talked about.

I get it, you don't believe me so there's no need to keep saying so. It's tiresome and whether you do or not is of no interest to me.

I was friends with her mother. Her father died a few years ago. We're no longer in contact which is perfectly understandable as they were from time to time estranged which is why when they married, we were the only ones at the wedding.

A few years ago while visiting his mother at her care home,
Mr. S. literally bumped into her when he was leaving and she was arriving to visit a friend.

She asked him how we both were and if he would give her a hug which being the lovely man he is, he did. Her request for a hug said far more than words could ever say.

I would just like to point out that abusive people do very often seek support in different places and groups. In order to keep a lie such as "I was not a bad parent" going it is necessary to live inside it and pursue all avenues to appearing innocent, often garnering as much attention as possible along the way. Usually there are signs should you know what to look for.

There are also people who have been at the hands of abuse who have that voice inside their heads telling them how awful they were and are. After time passes it’s not there so much but in times of worry or insecurity it raises its ugly head telling you, you are just not good enough

It’s a shame people have to be so personal/nasty on these threads towards posters too. I expect lots of people have been through enough

Are you accusing EP's who come on these threads for support of being abusive Luminance? Are you saying that EP's on the estrangement forum are keeping the lie such as "I was not a bad parent" going to appear innocent?

Would you care to enlighten us on what signs we should look for?

If this was a forum only for EAC, would you suggest that they are only here to perpetuate their lie that their parents were abusive so that's why they estranged them, and to garner ^as much attention as possible along the way?

Yes it is a shame JaneJudge as you say, those that have direct experience of estrangement have been through enough. I really don't understand the mentality of those who seem to post to 'twist the knife' into those already hurting.

I agree that this is all becoming nasty.
I would say though, that parents who have been estranged may indeed have been better parents to some of their children, I think in my case it was two people who didn’t like each other, and who had not a single thing in common.
My mother appears to be much loved by my nieces and nephews, and one of my own children.
She always told anyone who would listen, I was the difficult one, and perhaps there is some truth there.

Smileless2012 if I were saying that, I would have said that.

I don't think you would Luminance but if that is the case, why not answer my questions? What signs should we be looking for, and would you suggest that EAC on an EAC support forum would only be there to perpetuate a lie that their parents were abusive, as an excuse to estrange them, and garner as much attention as possible along the way?

Smileless2012 This is an open forum where potentially anyone can join so it will always be fair to say that indeed anyone could post here and that that type of person would. I think the clues would be in how they treat others here, whether they are able to apologise and be accountable and in their answers to questioning. I think you will find that a very across the board answer to your question. I only mentioned one example in response to another assertion.