Sharing something a friend told me

BeepBoop

And if anyone dares to argue that that example is still controlling (since it influences the behavior of the other party with a threat), what is the alternative?

The offended party is forced to listen to opinions they do not want to or care to hear until the offender dies? That would be infinitely more controlling.

I disagree. Keeping someone from speaking is quite controlling and also, quite a mistake. The boundry should be yes, you can give an opinion but I can either take it or leave it.

That's the real boundry we all have; we can listen to others, let them speak but our power lies in our actions, whether or not we do what they say.

To compell others to silence is control.

And in my opinion, someone who tries to control like that is a fool. Because we need input, all of us because we are not perfect and can make mistakes.

It can happen that out of all those misguided advices, one or two might actually help, or even make a big difference in one's life. So many people say "if only I knew", but if they were afraid to tell you, that's on you.

Lathyrus3

Yes, I’m only pondering it philosophically I suppose, not having anything personal embedded into my pondering. That’s why I’ve avoided talking about parents and children because peoples personal experiences do influence how they regard the whole “boundary” thing.

I think probably “If you keep offering advice I will end the conversation” is somewhere along the lines of “Trespassers will be prosecuted” to put it in another boundary context.
That is, your action will have this consequence.

In the end I still can’t help thinking that rigid boundaries of forbidding and conversely determined ignoring of another’s wishes are just the two flip sides of intolerance and a determination to have your own way. (Your is meant generally not personally )

Incidentally, although I’m partial to a pithy saying, I still don’t really get what Smarter was saying with her ‘nailed it” remark.

"In the end I still can’t help thinking that rigid boundaries of forbidding and conversely determined ignoring of another’s wishes are just the two flip sides of intolerance and a determination to have your own way. (Your is meant generally not personally )"

It is. You are right.

Unless advice is the only way someone can communicate or speak to another, requesting no unsolicited advice is hardly demanding silence. Surely there are other things to talk about than what the adult child may be doing wrong.

Not wanting unasked for advice from one or two people does not mean that person thinks they are perfect and don't need any input from anyone.

CariadAgain

From all of which I think it's probably what I call "expecting good manners and consideration" - which is fair enough.

I tend to find that modern concept of "boundaries" as meaning "I'm just looking for an excuse to say your perfectly standard behaviour is a problem/you are a problem. Go on - give me that excuse". Rather than thinking "Well we're all human. So as long as someone has a roughly similar set of morals/expectations there's no big deal problem worth blowing them out for".

After all telling someone who admits they "used to" be a thief (in his own words) that I knew pretty recently "The boundary is you had better not turn out to still be a thief - or you will be past history on the spot" is totally unnecessary. I was gracious enough to assume he'd repented of his sins and was now a normal person instead of a thief - and so I said nothing - until it turned out he had lied and he is still a thief. At that point - no need for a "You crossed my boundaries" speech and I just cut him off instantly and totally and left him to figure out that thieves are not people in my opinion and so he's history now.

"I tend to find that modern concept of "boundaries" as meaning "I'm just looking for an excuse to say your perfectly standard behaviour is a problem/you are a problem. Go on - give me that excuse". Rather than thinking "Well we're all human. So as long as someone has a roughly similar set of morals/expectations there's no big deal problem worth blowing them out for"."

That it is, definately. Spot on!

There are people who have leverage over another and will use it. Whether it's the old mother who would die if her son never spoke to her or the grandmother who's ever demanding daughter will cut off time with the grandkids over the slightest upset, boundries sometimes can become one sided, unfair and downright cruel.

Boundries can be suddenly moved, too, as a way to make sure the other person must continue to fluster and stress trying to please or ultimately make a mistake and fail.

Then suppposedly it's the other person's fault when they can't live up to the expectations.

I feel the "concept" of boundries is sound. It does seem better to respect others wishes in certain matters. But as everything in life, things can be exploited and used against those in weaker positions.

Just like a big muscular bully, a wealthy corporation, an oppressive goverment, people or things that have advantage over others will usually and most likely use that advantage for their own purposes, whatever those purposes might be.

It's human nature that ruins sound and good concepts.

I think some are over-complicating this… the simple fact is, you can’t (and shouldn’t) control what others give to you in the form of words or actions from their world, but you can control whether or not you want to receive them in yours ! That is your choice and your right.

If you make it clear that you choose not to receive them and that if the behaviour continues then the relationship with you will fracture, then you have let them know your own limits, ie your boundaries. It is then up to the other party to decide whether or not to respect those limits or not, knowing that failure to do so may result in estrangement. That is their choice and their right.

bakestrategic

Unless advice is the only way someone can communicate or speak to another, requesting no unsolicited advice is hardly demanding silence. Surely there are other things to talk about than what the adult child may be doing wrong.

Not wanting unasked for advice from one or two people does not mean that person thinks they are perfect and don't need any input from anyone.

But see, it is. If you know you will somehow be punished for speaking, that is demanding silence.

And it is also very telling you put it as "other things to talk about what the adult child may be doing wrong"...

That is a common assumption! I get it, some young parents cannot take advice without feeling like they are being critisized. It's not critisizm, unless of course, the in law or whoever is telling them "hey you are really messing this up" or "how can you think that will work" type of wording that would sound like a put down.

But who does that, really? In the majority of cases, advice is not telling a parent they are doing wrong, but are actually suggestions. Alternatives. Something to ponder if the current plan fails.

It could even be called simply help. I want to help you. It doesn't mean you have to do as I say, or that my opinion is going to work for you, but this is what I have perhaps learned from and would like to share it with you.

My mother gave me lots of advice. I appreciated it. If I thought it might work, I'd do it. If not, I would politely say so, it's not going to work. Sometimes she would say ok, you may be sorry. Now, I wouldn't ever say that to my kids, but the thing is, she was right about a lot of things I didn't listen to.

Now I pay the price for not seeing at the time there was a developing issue. She saw it and I was stubborn.

Now I have a perfect child who is the perfect parent. In her own mind. Caring enough to try and help only led to resentment and not just partial estrangement, but I know she does not love me anymore, she has shown me. She is around still, out of either obligation or for the rest of the family.

So, now she has a parent who has decided to back off. I'm watching the train wreck and gonna let it happen. And I know it's not right, at all, but if I live long enough to see the train crash and burn, I suppose I've stopped caring so I will be able to handle it.

I know myself and normally I would be crushed if something bad happened to one of my children in their lives and relationships. I would not have been able to handle it, at all.

Now I actually think I can. Imagine that. I love my kid, but I think the devastation over every happiness detail of life has dissppeared. Yes, I used to worry over every detail of her lifes, relationships, health, happiness to a point of literal obsession. My own MIL once told me I was obsessed with my own children. Isn't that intense, unconditional love though?

Let it go, let it be, etc. is how I feel now about what happens to her.

It still feels sad, though. Very sad, but the anxiety of parenthood for me is gone.

I feel this isn't right. This isn't what is supposed to happen.

stillawipp

I think some are over-complicating this… the simple fact is, you can’t (and shouldn’t) control what others give to you in the form of words or actions from their world, but you can control whether or not you want to receive them in yours ! That is your choice and your right.

If you make it clear that you choose not to receive them and that if the behaviour continues then the relationship with you will fracture, then you have let them know your own limits, ie your boundaries. It is then up to the other party to decide whether or not to respect those limits or not, knowing that failure to do so may result in estrangement. That is their choice and their right.

I agree, to a point. Like others said, boundries can become a way to get your way, so to speak while not respecting the other person at all.

I think the concept of boundries is very good but can be used, like all good things, for bad. For control. For excuses to be selfish. For getting what you want when you want it no matter how it hurts or destroys another because they didn't do as you instructed.

As I said before, two people can both have boundries, which is good. But if one has an advantage, knowing the weakness of the other, boundries can become used as leverage, exploited for selfish purpose.

This is human nature. Things like boundries, that should be equal, can become unequal in nature.

Like two countries who say let's respect each other and live accordingly. But then one country builds a bigger army and then decides to say the other must respect them more, live a bit differently or be blown to bits.

It doesn't matter if the advice is criticism or not, it's not wanted. Calling the consequences of a boundary "punishment" is also telling. A punishment is meant to penalize the one being punished. While the consequences of a broken boundary may feel like a punishment, it is actually a response to maintain one's sense of safety and comfort. A personal example, my abusive ex-husband would say I was "punishing" him when I didn't sleep in bed with him. I wasn't doing it to make him feel bad, but so I could sleep at night as I didn't feel safe around him anymore.

Is it not possible to have a relationship with someone without offering advice? People are more willing to ask for advice from someone they trust and respects their boundaries.

stillawipp

I think some are over-complicating this… the simple fact is, you can’t (and shouldn’t) control what others give to you in the form of words or actions from their world, but you can control whether or not you want to receive them in yours ! That is your choice and your right.

If you make it clear that you choose not to receive them and that if the behaviour continues then the relationship with you will fracture, then you have let them know your own limits, ie your boundaries. It is then up to the other party to decide whether or not to respect those limits or not, knowing that failure to do so may result in estrangement. That is their choice and their right.

Indeed.

One may be clear in wanting no opinions or unasked advice. Others may disrespect the limit - their choice to value their opinions over that limit.

I've no need to give unasked advice to my daughters, they're adults, if they want and opinion that can ask. Simple really.

I guess this it isn’t really possible for people who are emotionally involved to discuss this topic dispassionately.
So thank you for the opportunity to exercise my brain, but I can see it’s perhaps time for me to leave this thread.

And go to bed!😬

Crossstitchfan

This has gone this has gone completely over my head! What on earth is it all about??

I agree. I’m glad I’m not the only one who is bored and confused by this thread. I’d be afraid to open my mouth if I took any notice of half of what’s said on here.

It's just a word that describes a personal choice that you are within your rights to make. We all have boundaries. They aren't particularly fancy just because someone has given them a name.

Lathyrus3

I guess this it isn’t really possible for people who are emotionally involved to discuss this topic dispassionately.
So thank you for the opportunity to exercise my brain, but I can see it’s perhaps time for me to leave this thread.

And go to bed!😬

Very, very true. I actually copy- pasted some of your thoughts to my computer notepad. I found them helpful...sorry you are leaving but you did contribute well in my opinion. Good night.

Luminance

It's just a word that describes a personal choice that you are within your rights to make. We all have boundaries. They aren't particularly fancy just because someone has given them a name.

Yes, you are speaking the truth. But once they gave it a name, made it something more exciting if you will, it became something to exploit or use as an excuse for some to either become in control, get everything their way or to simply have an excuse to dispose of people who may have loved them dearly, but had no real use to them in daily life or they simply were not needed in their circle of family and friends anymore. I think modern psychology has helped people but also hurt just as many, if not more.

Humans by nature are selfish. We are not selfless, no matter if we think we are. And love has conditions...aka boundries if you will.

All humans need love, respect, caring....that includes parents too. I think that's what society is pushing these days, that the younger generation is the only one to be considered, and even when both are considered, still, the younger ones are to be on top of the moral mountain.

I had a thought, perhaps this is not just about parents/children. It may be about ageism and how once someone is too old to be useful or stops being cool, up on the latest youth thing, then nobody is interested in an old person anymore.

Out with the old, in with the new? That may work with ideas and objects, but not with people, unless we all agree that compassion and love are dead concepts.

That saying goes...... Life is for the living? I do not know now, maybe it actually goes Life is for the young. To hell with the rest.

Maybe us here that are either forgotten or partially forgotten, left out, perhaps we are not dealing with all the personal issues after all. Maybe it's just the way the world works now. And it stinks.

bakestrategic

It doesn't matter if the advice is criticism or not, it's not wanted. Calling the consequences of a boundary "punishment" is also telling. A punishment is meant to penalize the one being punished. While the consequences of a broken boundary may feel like a punishment, it is actually a response to maintain one's sense of safety and comfort. A personal example, my abusive ex-husband would say I was "punishing" him when I didn't sleep in bed with him. I wasn't doing it to make him feel bad, but so I could sleep at night as I didn't feel safe around him anymore.

Is it not possible to have a relationship with someone without offering advice? People are more willing to ask for advice from someone they trust and respects their boundaries.

I think abuse is a whole different bannana. Not in apples and oranges catagory. An abuser will turn things around to make it look like the abused is causing some of the discord. There is no continual plan to eventually get that person out of their life like partial estrangement is, or parental and grandparent alienation.

What you are talking about is someone wants, intends and carries out an inexcusable offense and then expects to be treated like they did not do it. Abusers purposely do something that not only they know the person wouldn't want but it is also something extremely harmful to one's own survival.

Parents do not intend or carry out horrible things in many of these estrangement cases. Abusers do, but again, they are not the majority that this is happeninig to.

I'm not reading all of that Smarter. The fact you think you're entitled to continue giving unwanted advice speaks volumes about your character. I don't really know how to make any more points to convince you, so I'm going to use a semi-extreme analogy to drive my point home.

Imagine an adult child is gay and has been steadily-married for decades now. Their parent hates same-sex marriage and has been offering "advice" (i.e., "don't be gay") ever since they have met their child's partner.

Do you really think the child is obligated to continue to listen to their parent's nonsensical dribble that at best does nothing, and at worst, erodes at your own sense of self and may fill you with guilt (molding you from an individual into their vision of you, their doll).

I actually can't comprehend how you can contend my point with "the only alternative (to enforcing boundaries) being forced to hear something you don't want to until one of you dies", but as mentioned earlier. It's impossible to discuss this earnestly when emotionally attached to the situation.

I imagine it's difficult to fall out with your own child, but I believe that's all the more reason to work towards maturity and clarity (instead of unreasonable justifications).

I'm reading your posts little by little Smarter, and this part really stood out.

"Yes, I used to worry over every detail of her lifes, relationships, health, happiness to a point of literal obsession. My own MIL once told me I was obsessed with my own children. Isn't that intense, unconditional love though?"

You are clearly enmeshed and now I understand better why you have affront to boundaries, as they figuratively and literally help draw distinct borders between two individuals (whereas total enmeshment would involve completely blending together).

Just to be clear, enmeshment isn't "intense, unconditional love" (though it can certainly be "intense"), nor is it typical behavior for parents. It's toxic, unhealthy and you should avoid it to the best of your capabilities.

Actual love involves enough distance for the other person to grow freely. When you obsess and dot over every aspect of their individual self, you end up restricting that crucial freedom (which can turn into a lot of resentment once the child wisens up and realizes the total impact their overbearing parents had on them).

Still ruminating (also).

I think it's comically hypocritical that certain personalities expect others to take in opinions freely (without getting fussy or setting any boundaries to stop it), yet themselves can't even begin to stand the thought that their opinion (whether it's on a specific topic or not) is completely unwanted.

For one reason or another, valid or not, a person has determined they don't care what you have to say. It shouldn't be this hard to respect other people's wishes, we teach kindergarteners about the Golden Rule (treating others how you want to be treated yourself).

Just because you changed that person's diapers at one point in their life doesn't entitle you to give them unwarranted advice for the rest of their (or your) life.

stillawipp

I think some are over-complicating this… the simple fact is, you can’t (and shouldn’t) control what others give to you in the form of words or actions from their world, but you can control whether or not you want to receive them in yours ! That is your choice and your right.

If you make it clear that you choose not to receive them and that if the behaviour continues then the relationship with you will fracture, then you have let them know your own limits, ie your boundaries. It is then up to the other party to decide whether or not to respect those limits or not, knowing that failure to do so may result in estrangement. That is their choice and their right.

Agreed. I personally have that attitude, she can take it or leave it. However, it's kinda the other way around for me, she expects me to follow every whim, every opinon and every viewpoint. She has a very controlling father and I think it rubbed off.

Even her older brother, who has bonded more with her recently during visits, tells me he is trying to make her a more reasonable person with his own discussions with her, because he even feels her friends and others have influenced her greatly beyond the way I raised them both.

He has no idea, though. I have not disclosed to him everything. Because, I do not want to be the troublemaker but rather, let her actions show her true self instead of me.

Yes, she has rights, but estrangement is cruel. I have rights too, to protect myself, whatever I do to accomplish that, I do.

BeepBoop

“What if one person's boundaries crosses over into another's?”

She’s not asking in curiosity—she’s likely setting up a justification for why other people’s boundaries are invalid if they hurt her feelings. This is a manipulative or self-serving interpretation of boundaries—she sees them as oppressive or unfair when applied to her. In a healthy context, that question would lead to negotiation or mutual respect. But for her, it reads more like:

“If your boundary makes me feel rejected, then you're wrong for having it.”

This suggests emotional enmeshment—where she can’t differentiate her feelings from others’, and sees healthy individuation as abandonment or attack.

You're spot on—confusing boundaries with rejection is a sign of emotional enmeshment. I’ve found that stepping back, even with something simple like reading on tachiyomiapk, helps me stay grounded. Healthy space matters.

You're spot on—confusing boundaries with rejection is a sign of emotional enmeshment. I’ve found that stepping back, even with something simple like reading on tachiyomiapk, helps me stay grounded. Healthy space matters.

You're spot on—confusing boundaries with rejection is a sign of emotional enmeshment. I’ve found that stepping back, even with something simple like reading on tachiyomiapk.net/ tachiyomiapk, helps me stay grounded. Healthy space matters.

BeepBoop

I'm not reading all of that Smarter. The fact you think you're entitled to continue giving unwanted advice speaks volumes about your character. I don't really know how to make any more points to convince you, so I'm going to use a semi-extreme analogy to drive my point home.

Imagine an adult child is gay and has been steadily-married for decades now. Their parent hates same-sex marriage and has been offering "advice" (i.e., "don't be gay") ever since they have met their child's partner.

Do you really think the child is obligated to continue to listen to their parent's nonsensical dribble that at best does nothing, and at worst, erodes at your own sense of self and may fill you with guilt (molding you from an individual into their vision of you, their doll).

I actually can't comprehend how you can contend my point with "the only alternative (to enforcing boundaries) being forced to hear something you don't want to until one of you dies", but as mentioned earlier. It's impossible to discuss this earnestly when emotionally attached to the situation.

I imagine it's difficult to fall out with your own child, but I believe that's all the more reason to work towards maturity and clarity (instead of unreasonable justifications).

Excuse me, you may be confused.

It's been other posters who started using the giving of unsolicited advice as an example of boundries. I never said that was the problem with my situation.

I do not give unsolicited advice to any of my kids. If they mention a problem or quandry, I am usually just listening or sometime will throw out a hey, do you think this would work? Have you tried this?

I am more of a hands on mom, there to possibly give them an idea they might have not thought of. And vise versa, they have given me ideas at times.

Not sure why you decided to judge me based on unsolicited advice when that's not really my thing. My problem lies with a dominiating kid, who think I basically know nothing and have failed at everything, and are to blame for everything that ever happened to her.

I wish the problem with me was with giving unsolicited advice. It would be a much easier problem to solve than I have.

jackleenandrey

You're spot on—confusing boundaries with rejection is a sign of emotional enmeshment. I’ve found that stepping back, even with something simple like reading on tachiyomiapk, helps me stay grounded. Healthy space matters.

That is not the reason I feel rejected by her. Not in the least. It's other things. But boundries were discussed with my friend and her issues with my daughter.

I have bigger issues with my daughter. Boundries are the least of it. I mean, just imagine someone always critisizing you, putting down anything you do or say or trying to put distance between grandkids because she doesn't want them to be close to you or think you are a good person.

Trying to enforce rules she doesn't enforce with anyone else and then when you cooperate, she suddenly changes those rules. Pretty neat, eh? Then you do things wrong because last week it was right, this week it isn't. That's not boundries, that's cat and mouse.

Emeshment, from what I understand, means being involved in everything in a person's life, yes? I said I was obsessed with their emotional lives and happiness....not that I was involved in everything. In fact, I was in the dark about alot because I did not want to pry into their lives outside mine, with friends and what not.

My daughter was drinking hard liquor with friends anytime they got together (she was 18, but drinking age was 21). I had no clue. I only found out after she started having ulcer problems. Now she has to watch things as it comes and goes, even after stopping the drinking.

Her drinking wasn't by example; I do not drink at all and my husband drinks only socially or mainly work related outings. Never binge drinking like apparently my daughter did on those "movie nights" with the girls.

After my kids were 18, they still lived at home but only rules were no disruptions in our house. Or no breaking the law, bringing things into our home that could be destructive or unlawful. That was literally all that was expected. Be gay, don't be gay, dress like a freak, don't dress like a freak....didn't matter. They were adults.

Basic respect of their parent's homes were all they were required. They could do whatever else they wanted.

BeepBoop

I'm reading your posts little by little Smarter, and this part really stood out.

"Yes, I used to worry over every detail of her lifes, relationships, health, happiness to a point of literal obsession. My own MIL once told me I was obsessed with my own children. Isn't that intense, unconditional love though?"

You are clearly enmeshed and now I understand better why you have affront to boundaries, as they figuratively and literally help draw distinct borders between two individuals (whereas total enmeshment would involve completely blending together).

Just to be clear, enmeshment isn't "intense, unconditional love" (though it can certainly be "intense"), nor is it typical behavior for parents. It's toxic, unhealthy and you should avoid it to the best of your capabilities.

Actual love involves enough distance for the other person to grow freely. When you obsess and dot over every aspect of their individual self, you end up restricting that crucial freedom (which can turn into a lot of resentment once the child wisens up and realizes the total impact their overbearing parents had on them).

As I mentioned, I was obsessed....emotionally. My focus in life was my kids, that's all I cared about.

But emeshment from what I've read means a person gets overly involved in that person's life.....that's a whole different thing.

For as much as I was invested emotionally, hoping and helping my kids, supporting them in any way I could to hopefully support their successes is simply that.......not meddling, not planning, not anything at all like that.

I had an overinvolved mother, her intentions were good but I felt I never had a chance to leave the nest so to speak. So when I became a mom, I was senstitive to that feeling of not being more independant.

I was the cool mom, in a way. I let things flow, especially after they hit 18 and legally I was not responsible for any ill they may do. They were allowed to stay at home, only rules were respect the home and us. Other things were none of my business.

I wanted them happy and healthy, that was my obessession, and that they would love me as I did them. My MIL noticed I always loved talking about my kids to others, rather than focus on current events or what not. So I guess she just wasn't the same as me.

I was obsessed, with love, not with trying to run their lives because I was at least smart enough to know the only way to love them was let them do whatever it was that made them happy.

In fact so much so, my son took years to decide on a carreer. Even his sister and my husband got tired of it, said he'd never accomplish anything. I stood by him and he finally did, many years after his younger sister, who always tried to look superior to him because she did hers sooner.

At that time, he noticed her attitude, and speaking of estrangement, it almost happened to him and her! Of course, trying to be a good mom, I would always defend her to him, and then him to her during that time.

Who knows, I may have prevented their estrangement.

Or maybe it's because my son, when he finally did his thing, got higher grades and accolades than she did. So maybe that made him stop resenting her uppity attitude because now they are fine with each other....well, not competely but pretty well. But after my daughters attitude towards me I suppose I will not be advocating for her anymore, with anyone.

If I am emmeshed, she certainly has cured me of it.