Near Estrangment but confused about something

Thank you Starfire, I hope that it's helped knowing that you and I have had very similar experiences.

You're spot on when you say it's like someone has changed your family and the life you had into something you never had, and your memories of things that never existed.

I understand that for you it also feels as of your present and future has been taken too. It was like that for us too for many years but eventually we came to realise that those haven't been taken, they've been changed into something completely different.

This has happened for your D too. The life she thought she was going to have was ripped apart when her H left her for another woman.

You say in relation to your marriage and how your H treated you that you wish you could go back, but of course you can't but you can go forward and if he still makes them, challenge his unfounded allegations and challenge your D's too .

Starfire57. I have worked my way through your extremely lengthy posts, (I personally find such long posts daunting and don’t normally bother to read them, but for some reason, I looked at yours!)
I can’t find any way to answer you. That’s if you even want an answer! As far as i can see, you post to let off steam , more than wanting answers and if that helps you, all well and good. For me, I am totally confused and have no idea what to say! Perhaps I should just be quiet and go away!

Smileless2012

In response to the question you've asked again @ 01.52 Starfire, about false childhood memories or inaccurate perceptions as well as others projecting their childhood experiences, these are sadly recurring themes where there's estrangement.

This is our experience with our ES 'remembering' events that his wife experienced during her childhood and early adulthood.

I was at one time a good friend of her mother before they met and it was because of our friendship that they did meet, so I was aware of the dysfunctional environment she was raised in and the abuse she witnessed and was occasionally subjected too.

It remains as inexplicable to us as it is for you, how our son can 'remember' things that never happened and seemingly 'forget' so much of what the first 27 years of his life was actually like.

Where this is the case, trying to resolve the problem really is akin to banging your head against a brick wall, because unless the AC in question is prepared to communicate sensibly, which involves listening as well as being heard, there's nothing you can do.

In a husband/wife and/or living together relationship, this level of projection is itself abusive when it results in the AC severing contact with their parents and in many cases their entire family.

When it happens with someone the AC is living with, it's usually so the one they're living with has them all to themselves, has total control and becomes the centre of the AC's world, and often begins with being jealous of the close family bond that exists and a desire to destroy it.

From what you've posted it looks as if your D's friend's jealousy of your D's family, despite the issues that you all faced could be the cause of her projecting. Your D will I'm sure have talked about her father shouting at you and the impact this had and this may have been the catalyst for what followed.

You've said that you've had counselling/therapy in the past but I was wondering if, as we go into a new year, this maybe something you could reconsider but perhaps with a different goal in mind.

Rather than trying to find ways of 'fixing' this, counselling or therapy could help you to begin to not only accept that there's nothing you can do unless your D is willing, but also accept the situation for what it is.

Make the most of the time you still get to spend with your GC. Accept that you did your best which is all any of us can do and remember that it's very easy for others to say what they would have done, and what you should have done, in a very difficult environment with a young family which they were fortunate never to have experienced .

Thank you for your views on this. I am so sorry this has also happened to you. It's as if someone comes along and just transforms your family life and your past into something it never was. It's just so frustrating and sad on so many levels; it takes all your good memories and trashes them, as thought they never existed.

Then it takes your present and future, too, from you.

Just a mere 6 years ago, I was on top of the world. My grandson couldn't get enough of me, my daughter and son in law were excited to have me be a part of many of the things happening, in fact so much so sometimes I would use an excuse here and there to bow out, for two reasons; one, because I needed some time as most do for personal things and two, because I didn't want to be that MIL that's always in everyone's hair. I didn't want my son in law to have one of those.

Well, guess I should have been more selfish I guess.

I do wish I could go back. Not allow my husbands unfounded accusations to not be challenged.

If only I knew he was projecting his own parent's relationship onto me. I was clueless and innocent, got married way too young and thought all marriages were like my parents.

You know, my mom saw something in my daughter but couldn't pin it down. This was around the time my daughter was complaining to me that my mom insulted her friend one day during a visit....

For some strange reason, my daughter wanted her friend to meet my mom. NOW I get it, the friend wanted to evaluate my mother.

My mom made the mistake of telling the friend she had a pretty face. The friend took this as a jab at her weight, since this friend has been morbidly obese since high school.

My daughter complained to me that it was mean. I do not think my mom was being mean, I think she was looking to compliment something I suppose. I told my mom and she seemed surprised too.

So later in time, my mom noticed my daughter had a very sullen attitude when around her....and neither one of us made the connection, at all, but now I believe my daughter had resented my mom ever since.

Of course, I didn't ask my daughter about this because that would be "paranoid" and what's the point anyway, my mom has been gone for quite awhile now, so it's pointless to bring up.

Now I wonder if the friend also ruined my daughter and my mom's relationship too.

At any rate, again, my mom was alive to see my daughter married and my daughter seemed ok with her grandparents.

So really, I think despite it all, we all were ok until the husband betrayed her so deeply like he did.

So Smileless2012, doesn't it seem so unfair for other people to come into our lives like this and ruin them?

I feel for you, being a victim of this same sort of thing.

I do not understand why this happens and usually to people who do not deserve it.

MarieElla

Gosh, there's a lot there.
It would help to hear your daughter's version as she's obviously blaming you for a lot of things.
Maybe she resents you for always getting the presents just right when she couldn't.
Her marriage breaking down will have had an enormous effect on her and you being friendly eith your ex son in law may be seen as a betrayal.

Yes, I think you are right, I think she resents the presents thing.

She also, I think, rejects how her room was when she was young; I had always put decorations and stuffed animals about.

I think that stems from the friend who basically had a plain room with a mattress on the floor( I went inside the house once to pick up my daughter) and that friend, as I mentioned became her best friend she looked up to for being wild, drinking, tatoos, etc. and I am sure the friend mocked me over my daughters thoughtful room filled with stuffed animals, a decent bed and nice furniture.

My daughter, before her husband left, was actually excited about decorating her son's room, even accepted ideas I had like making it into a Toy Story room or a Disney Cars room. But then after he left, she started saying she never intended and that it didn't need anything, and left the room plain.

So ok, if that's what she wants her kids to live in, I understand although I know my son enjoyed his Star Wars themed room and I know, at the time, my daughter loved her animal stuffies room. So I feel bad for my grandkids in a way, seems they deserve something but idk, it's not my call.

And I agree, if I had been friendly with her ex, I could see that as betrayal, but the fact is, I shunned him, literally hated him after what he did.

But then she decided after awhile, I was being vindictive and petty for feeling that way!!!

I really can't win here.

Between the examples my husband set in her youth, the toxic friend and then her husbands betrayal, this is the result.

Seemed my husbands actions didn't really split us. Even the friends actions, had some impact, but didn't really split us. But the third thing, her husbands betrayal, I think it destroyed her as a person and that's when all the bad influences finally took.

It hurts. But it hurts more when I know she's trying to effect how my grandson feels, when he used to feel so different towards me but now he's more distant because of it all.

Bad enough her, now him. I just hang on to the idea maybe he will see through it and still love his Gma.

As far as any money down the road, I think I've almost decided if I am the last man standing, I won't be leaving anything to her. Even my husband was on the fence, saying maybe we should just leave to the grandkids, that is, if they don't alienate from us because of her.

All this is assuming things go well and there is anything left, of course. Meanwhile, I'm thinking of spending what we have on our own needs these days, even stuff we might not really need, like I don't want to do any cosmetic surgery but might look into some of those non evasive laser stuff for wrinkles and such.

In other words, not sacrifice something that would make me feel better for her.

Which is the exact opposite of what I would have done before.

She used to say, don't reward bad behavior when it came to always being forgiving to my husband.

I don't think I should reward her for her bad behavior either.

There is a section on MN called
But we took you to stately homes...
I was reminded of it when the OP mentioned amusement parks.
Might be worth OP having a look over on MN...
All the best.

Smileless2012

You say it's strange DL, for me it's distasteful and says so much more about AC who do this then they probably intend.

No, it’s odd. It doesn’t matter how loud the ACs shout and holler about their awful parents, , the thought of money and inheritance ends up shouting the loudest. 🙄

I tend to agree with the above.
Can you self reflect and analyse where you went wrong as a parent.
We have all made mistakes raising our children. I made many as I was young and left aloneca lot while my husband worked.
But I have had many conversations with my children about these mistakes and apologised.

Starfire57 your daughter did grow up in an abusive home, you need to have patience and understanding while she processes that. I understand what you are saying in your reply but I did have to go and read your previous comments to be sure I was correct that you have a granddaughter too? If people responding here can see issues in your daughter's childhood and issues in the relationship now and how you are responding to what clearly is painful for her, do you think that could be something you need to accept and address with her?

You say it's strange DL, for me it's distasteful and says so much more about AC who do this then they probably intend.

Starfire57

“Thank you. I fear this is the case. Truthfully it is so hurtful that I would indeed walk away without looking back, but there is too much to consider; my grandkids, my husband and my son. I do not want to be the one to end it all. I feel my daughter actually would but at the same time she has inquired about out future, a will/trust to the point I think she really wouldn't want to get cut out of that.”

It’s always a strange thing to me how some ACs thrash around about how badly they were bought up, festering with resentment about feeling they were abused (whether real or imagined) - and yet, never want to walk away from what they see as their “entitlement” around Wills etc. 🙄

I can also understand what you saying about the American custody situation. I’m English but my son emigrated there sone years ago, and we often discuss the difference in systems.

It’s often very different to here, and varies from state to state. Particularly in the past - parental yelling wouldn’t have been considered abuse. Finances often take priority.

Even over here, it was very hard for abused women to get help from the state, until relatively recently.

Best wishes.

In response to the question you've asked again @ 01.52 Starfire, about false childhood memories or inaccurate perceptions as well as others projecting their childhood experiences, these are sadly recurring themes where there's estrangement.

This is our experience with our ES 'remembering' events that his wife experienced during her childhood and early adulthood.

I was at one time a good friend of her mother before they met and it was because of our friendship that they did meet, so I was aware of the dysfunctional environment she was raised in and the abuse she witnessed and was occasionally subjected too.

It remains as inexplicable to us as it is for you, how our son can 'remember' things that never happened and seemingly 'forget' so much of what the first 27 years of his life was actually like.

Where this is the case, trying to resolve the problem really is akin to banging your head against a brick wall, because unless the AC in question is prepared to communicate sensibly, which involves listening as well as being heard, there's nothing you can do.

In a husband/wife and/or living together relationship, this level of projection is itself abusive when it results in the AC severing contact with their parents and in many cases their entire family.

When it happens with someone the AC is living with, it's usually so the one they're living with has them all to themselves, has total control and becomes the centre of the AC's world, and often begins with being jealous of the close family bond that exists and a desire to destroy it.

From what you've posted it looks as if your D's friend's jealousy of your D's family, despite the issues that you all faced could be the cause of her projecting. Your D will I'm sure have talked about her father shouting at you and the impact this had and this may have been the catalyst for what followed.

You've said that you've had counselling/therapy in the past but I was wondering if, as we go into a new year, this maybe something you could reconsider but perhaps with a different goal in mind.

Rather than trying to find ways of 'fixing' this, counselling or therapy could help you to begin to not only accept that there's nothing you can do unless your D is willing, but also accept the situation for what it is.

Make the most of the time you still get to spend with your GC. Accept that you did your best which is all any of us can do and remember that it's very easy for others to say what they would have done, and what you should have done, in a very difficult environment with a young family which they were fortunate never to have experienced .

Gosh, there's a lot there.
It would help to hear your daughter's version as she's obviously blaming you for a lot of things.
Maybe she resents you for always getting the presents just right when she couldn't.
Her marriage breaking down will have had an enormous effect on her and you being friendly eith your ex son in law may be seen as a betrayal.

InRainbows

Starfire57

You know, My question was, is it pretty common for these false childhood memories or inaccurate perceptions, others projecting their childhood onto your kid as a way of bonding, to where the kid over time does not remember any of what really happened?

Yes memories are not perfect. But generally the feelings felt are.

Very important not to blame a person who has memories that have perhaps changed because it's not deliberate.

But it is easier to convince yourself of something bad that happened because at that time you were unhappy and your mind is reaching for understanding about why. Often the past is revisited in that way because of current issues like anxiety and depression or not being able to protect yourself from harm from others well

It is also possible to convince our own minds that something didn't happen but the symptoms of that also remain.

Thank you. That sounds like that could be it. Only problem is, how does it get reversed I wonder, or maybe it can't?

Like , once the bad feelings take over, the good stuff, the times when her and I were like best friends, that gets forgotten or overtaken?

It is not just hurtful. It's also maddening, in a way, because I remember the warmth we had, the fun, the closeness, all the way up until her husband left.

She was so happy to make me a grandma, Practically pushed me with her son, It worked, we got close and I love him so much. But awhile after her husband left, she started in with complaining that he wanted my attention too much, and then complained about everything from food I would make him or toys I bought during birthdays and holidays.

That's another sore spot. I have a knack for finding toys and gifts in general because I always have paid attention to the likes and things loved ones talk or react about. I make a mental note and find a gift accordingly. My son said many times, he felt bad not knowing what to tell me when I'd ask about a birthday or Christmas but was amazed, I remembered something he admired months ago.

When I discovered Ebay, too, it broadened the stuff I could find . Every year too, when my daughter couldn't think of something to buy her brother, or more recently, her son, I'd have extras and offer for her to buy them off me. It seemed helpful. My son always depends on me to have something for his nephew if he can't find something.

But she even attacked that. Like, I enjoy making the holidays special, so sue me.

Before my son in law left, he has always wanted a replica of The Never Ending Story storybook. I looked for 6 months and found one that was new, unused. I got it for him on his birthday; it cost a bit much but I figured better than several gifts that didn't mean as much. He was thrilled.

Even my daughter was pleased. But, that was before she became a bitter person and stopped liking me, started acting like a was this abuser type person.

So what I just cannot accept is her version of me. It's not who I am and I refuse to be gaslit.

I feel bad and have apologized for her feelings on it all.

But it's like I'm supposed to lie about it all to make her happy.

Because her childhood, other than the few times my husband would get on me about something ( I learned what triggered him to reduce alot of it) was better than many kids we knew who were latchkey kids, neglected or otherwise not as important to their parents. Parents that would spend money on a fancy dinner for themselves instead of something for their kids.

I didn't eat out for years to save money. My husband got to because his work would have meetings at nice restaurants.

I remember being shocked that my next door neighbor, for her mother's day present, wanted her husband to leave with the kids for a day so she could be alone!!!

ON MOTHER"S DAY?

I would never want that and I was a stay at home mom for christ's sake....

Grams2five

And it is awful that you hd to endure that abuse. At the same time it is also awful your child has to witness it. You Both needed protection. As your daughter has aged age may be realizing that more and more. That she should also have been protected from that. You also say you’re friends with a woman you admit was in fact abusive to her children, to whom your child is very close too . It’s not painting a picture of someone with zero tolerance of abuse. It’s more painting a picture of someone who justifies abuse and expects others to as well. As a mother , I would be very careful about the sort of contact someone like that had with my kids too

I suppose messaging like this can create a bit of confusion. ..

I became friends with this woman after her son (the one that took off with another woman 6 years ago) married my daughter.

I did not know her while my daughter was growing up.

She is also the mother of my daughter's best friend, the one who CLAIMS she was abused.

I say claims, because I have not heard any proof of it. I do know this woman was more about her deceased husband than her kids and not at all as dedicated as I was to mine....although I know she loves her kids.

Once my daughter told me that her friend and the rest of the kids were locked out of their house for 2 hours....now I get that their mom and dad must have wanted to have some private time I suppose; but I feel personally, that was too long.

But that's the only example of "abuse" I had heard.

They played in the yard, they were fine but they didn't like it.

Again, personally I wouldn't do that.

But, I only had 2 kids, and I was a stay at home mom.

In my friends case, she worked, he worked and they had, at one time, all the kids from their marriage and their former marriages all in one house. Total I think was 7 kids!

I am sure it was madness. I don't blame her for wanting some time of peace with her husband that day they locked the doors, I just feel it wasn't nice and it was not very considerate of the children.

Was it abuse? IDK. I used to think abuse was about hurting the child, making the child feel bad about themselves, etc. Apparently, the term abuse is now extremely broad.

So I am not going to judge her over something like that. And, I certainly was not present during her upbringing of her children.

Now, she was a great MIL to my daughter; did things for her and my daughter cared for her. So I'd be surprised if my daughter had any issue with me and her as friends.

But then again, anything goes with my daughter. I could cure cancer and still be a horse's behind in her view.

Starfire57

You know, My question was, is it pretty common for these false childhood memories or inaccurate perceptions, others projecting their childhood onto your kid as a way of bonding, to where the kid over time does not remember any of what really happened?

Yes memories are not perfect. But generally the feelings felt are.

Very important not to blame a person who has memories that have perhaps changed because it's not deliberate.

But it is easier to convince yourself of something bad that happened because at that time you were unhappy and your mind is reaching for understanding about why. Often the past is revisited in that way because of current issues like anxiety and depression or not being able to protect yourself from harm from others well

It is also possible to convince our own minds that something didn't happen but the symptoms of that also remain.

Pleasebenice

Could you go and see a professional to talk about this together?

Yess, this was my thought.

You know, My question was, is it pretty common for these false childhood memories or inaccurate perceptions, others projecting their childhood onto your kid as a way of bonding, to where the kid over time does not remember any of what really happened?

And it is awful that you hd to endure that abuse. At the same time it is also awful your child has to witness it. You Both needed protection. As your daughter has aged age may be realizing that more and more. That she should also have been protected from that. You also say you’re friends with a woman you admit was in fact abusive to her children, to whom your child is very close too . It’s not painting a picture of someone with zero tolerance of abuse. It’s more painting a picture of someone who justifies abuse and expects others to as well. As a mother , I would be very careful about the sort of contact someone like that had with my kids too

Besides, in therapy, if there is any suggestion my daughter is reacting to me unnecessarily harsh or critical, she will not accept it. I did individual therapy for quite awhile and the therapist pointed some things out and suggested I talk to my daughter about it but I told the therapist no way, my daughter would indeed cut me off completely from the grandkids if I did that.

The therapist was operating on the assumption my daughter would be reasonable and have some sense of compassion, was willing to consider my feelings and compromise certain things together.

Nope, it's her way or else, that I know....

Pleasebenice

Could you go and see a professional to talk about this together?

I have asked them. Only my husband was open to it. Can't do family therapy without the family.

Grams2five

Lathyrus3

Is Starfire still with her husband?

She talks about him as if he is still there - he still gets cross about lights being left on.

If so, I can understand why the daughter would want to keep away and keep the grandchildren away.

Agreed this isn’t a case where op doesn’t now what’s the issue. Her daughter has told her. She witnessed the huaband (her father?) abusing others. That in and of itself is abuse . Even if it makes poor op both the victim of husbands mental and
Emotional abuse and a perpetrator for failing to protect her
Daughter

Good lord. I did not witness him abusing others. He verbally abused me, so much so, the kids started believing I was the problem (blame the victim) and started using me as a scapegoat when their lives went south.

I was the one who needed protection, if anyone did.

Again, the laws in my state would have given the kids to the abuser because he made all the money.

So staying and doing what I could to avoid conflicts was what I did. It did let up as time went on, and to tell truth, we both were pretty proactive in watching out for, defending and caring for our kids in general but also did many trips and amusement parks too, always had family stuff going on for them, lots of presents at Christmas and birthdays, but I guess elephants only remember mom getting degraded and dad's opinion of mom seemed to carry weight.

Could you go and see a professional to talk about this together?

Lathyrus3

Is Starfire still with her husband?

She talks about him as if he is still there - he still gets cross about lights being left on.

If so, I can understand why the daughter would want to keep away and keep the grandchildren away.

Agreed this isn’t a case where op doesn’t now what’s the issue. Her daughter has told her. She witnessed the huaband (her father?) abusing others. That in and of itself is abuse . Even if it makes poor op both the victim of husbands mental and
Emotional abuse and a perpetrator for failing to protect her
Daughter

Caleo

I feel for you Starfire. Your daughter is unhappy and blames you. No doubt you were not a perfect mother----nobody is!

The best you can do for your daughter is listen to her and help her when you can do so. Tell her it is harder for you to help her when she abuses you.

Thank you for your kindness.

Yes, not perfect. But, my world revolved around both my kids.

I do know that was and still is not the case for her friend; I know her mom. We are actually friends.

My friend loves her kids but her husband, now deceased, was the center of her world and still is. She also had 2 kids by another husband who, predictably, left her for another woman too.

Those other two kids treat her like gold.

I really think this daughter, my daughter's friend, was jealous, seeing how I was with my daughter.

My son used to say, his friends both male and female thought I was a cool mom. Some, especially one in particular friend of my daughter, felt I was like a second mom.....her mom had died many years ago.

It seemed I had the approval of my daughter, son and all their friends at one point, despite the issues with my husband, despite the projection of childhood by my daughter's friend. My house always was the place everyone came to hang out.

Well, she fixed that. Although, she really didn't succeed without her brother's help. When he left my daughter, that was the last bit of my old daughter torn away. Now I do not know who she is anymore. It seriously is like someone died but they are still here.

Now I see her slowly alienating me from my grandkids too. That hurts double. I don't know, maybe I still will have a chance with them, but they are growing up so there isn't much time left to enjoy them.

I have to just hope there is a God and he's working on something. I used to have a lot of faith, always seemed any problems in my life would at least calm or resolve in some way; my friend said God isn't a Genie but I never expected that, just some love and peace. Which is exactly what God is supposed to be about, so now I question a lot of it. Not sure if I believe any more, which in itself really sucks to think there is nothing but this life and this miserable bs.

Caleo

I feel for you Starfire. Your daughter is unhappy and blames you. No doubt you were not a perfect mother----nobody is!

The best you can do for your daughter is listen to her and help her when you can do so. Tell her it is harder for you to help her when she abuses you.

I’m still waiting for the perfect child or perfect parent to be born. 🙄