I have been having issues with my daughter ever since her husband left her. And she has a best friend, since high school, who claims she was abused. I don't know if that is true or not, but, seems my daughter talks a lot about and has now claimed she was an abused child.
She even is starting to make my grandkids think I am not safe in some way or was a bad parent/grandparent. They told me and it suck that the oldest one seems to believe it. The youngest told me she doesn't believe it.
Anyway, this is complete fabrication and I am thought maybe the best friend has been projecting her childhood onto my daughter.
My confusion is, when I offered to discuss the alledged abuse, she got mad that I didn't believe or acknowledge she was abused.
I went mad trying to get just ONE example. Just ONE. A long message conversation with me offering to talk in person or at least give one example on the messages.
She kept ranting about me and how I act, called me psychotic if I am called out on something.
Well, I have recently been deciding when she does say something very untrue to me, I don't agree with her. I've always been more of a silent person when attacked, will just leave the room, ignore it, etc. but lately I decided to at least basically defend myself like most people would.
Not arguing, just saying yeah no that's not true kinda thing. No big deal. That's now psychotic in her view.
Anyway my question is, has anyone here had an experience that when you ask about abuse, with the tone of if I did something I will apologize kinda thing, that then the adult child avoids, attacks and basically never tell you what you did?
It's completely maddening. You feel so hurt yet you are trying to understand by getting an answer. It's looney.
So finally, she mentioned children need to feel safe. I had a husband who yelled at me all the time. I thought ok, so maybe she was scared of him?
That's reasonable I think with a young child. But that's not abuse if I didn't know she was scared at times. Most the time she was always smiling. I can't read minds.
I told her if just once she told me she was scared, I may have tried to help her. But not knowing her feelings isn't abuse, it's lack of knowledge.
No matter, I told her I had no idea, that what she said was valid. Yet she still insisted she was abused and she said I won't accept it.
Again, how can you accept what exactly?
Don't kids know what happened?
I read about Mackalay Culkin and his story about his dad slapping him across the face and how Culkin said he had no bed to sleep on while his dad had a large comfy bed, etc.
He had examples of abuse.
What is the deal when an adult child can give no examples?
No clues? and the idea when you say you are ready to listen anyway, they don't want to talk or they avoid/distract with their opinions of your behaviors rather than on the subject of the abuse?
It got to the point of so many horrid accusations of abuse, again, using only the word abuse, even saying I do it with my grandchildren (too many hugs? idk?)
Now I am worried this will end badly. I did acknowledge her fear as a kid. But this is kinda nuts. Anyone who knows what this is, give me a clue.
I feel like the best friend projected so much of her own childhood now that my daughter thinks it's hers. I mean, she's known the friend for decades but seems now that her husband took off on her leaving her a single mom with 2 kids, it seems now something is seriously wrong. A couple of years ago, when her husband first left, she talked alot about her friend helping abused kids, and there was a predator defense protocol that the friend told her about for kids.
She used it one day to throw me out after I teared up a little when she yelled at me.
I never asked her why she used that. But she's a grown adult.
It's mental.
Does anyone know what this is?
Gransnet forums
Estrangement
Near Estrangment but confused about something
(229 Posts)I seem to remember you posting about this before Starfire and if so, I'm sorry that the situation hasn't improved.
Your D's friend is projecting her childhood trauma onto your D which explains why your D is unable to provide just one example of how she was abused.
IMO your best course of action is to say you're no longer prepared to listen to this and then leave the room. There's no point in trying to have a sensible conversation to try and discover if she was in fact abused, and what form that abuse took, if she's unwilling/unable to engage, and you need to tell her so.
What I have learned with my own children is that, they were far more aware of what was going around them than I thought. Bad memories tend to "stick" easier than good and that, what might not feel like a particularly big problem to me did to them.
I have found the best way to move forward is to deal with how they feel instead of what I remember.
It might be good for you to also examine the situation around your own abusive relationship because that is what shouting at you is. That would impact your ability to parent, there were probably many times you weren't able to parent well dealing with something awful like that. Unfortunately smiling is not proof of happiness. It can often be the opposite and someone trying very hard to overcompensate for how they feel inside. Adults and children do this. I think if you are honest with yourself you know that what she was exposed to was not healthy for her and that if you could go back now and change it, that's not a situation you would want either of you to be in.
Overall my take away from reading these situations and from my own family is that, when we start to deny their feelings or claim what they remember is false, that is when they start seeing it as abusive and "gaslighting" or "dismissive" or "invalidating". Going into it with an open mind and knowing that we aren't perfect and standards change greatly over time for parenting, can bring those relationships closer instead of pushing them apart.
It sounds like they ARE giving you examples and you are saying they aren't true and dismissing them. You won't understand because you have decided they are making it up.
If you're not listening unless it's something you agree with, this will continue. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but you can't meet in the middle or work through it by refusing to acknowledge their perspective.
If you truly feel they are knowingly making it up, maybe you should distance yourself and let them get on with it. After all, how could you want a relationship with someone who makes up blatant harmful lies and tries to hold you accountable for those lies?
Agree with InRainbows
Agree with User138563
Having worked in refuge with women escaping domestic abuse I know that you don't have to have been the one screamed at, slapped, kicked, belittled or branded to suffer.
Children suffer a lot.
I think maybe accept what she feels and don't say it's false.
The children do hear, sense, and suffer too.
In the UK we have emotional abuse and coercive control enshrined in law since 2015. You may or may not have this where you are. The law recognises that abuse is not necessarily physical or sexual, yet still harmful and illegal. It is not so easy to provide examples, particularly for a child. Perhaps read up on it and it may help you discuss it with your daughter.
You have posted before on this Starfire. You aren't listening to your daughter or acknowledging her views. .,it seems it is a very toxic relationship and cannot be good for anyone. It is best you have a complete break from each other. If I were your daughter with concerns, I would have limited contact, because nothing ever gets sorted so cannot understand why it plays on.
Smileless2012
I seem to remember you posting about this before Starfire and if so, I'm sorry that the situation hasn't improved.
Your D's friend is projecting her childhood trauma onto your D which explains why your D is unable to provide just one example of how she was abused.
IMO your best course of action is to say you're no longer prepared to listen to this and then leave the room. There's no point in trying to have a sensible conversation to try and discover if she was in fact abused, and what form that abuse took, if she's unwilling/unable to engage, and you need to tell her so.
Thank you. Yes I think I've given up on a sensible conversation. What bothers me is she is trying to convey to my grandkids that I was not a good mother or good grandmother....that's what bothers me more. Maybe since I told her what they have said, I hope she stops. She did defend, saying she lets them know when she doesn't agree with how she was raised and is raising them differently.
But to me, that does not translate to bad mom and grandma; these kids are 8 and 5. They know when someone says another is bad.
So I think she is saying more to them than she claims.
I hope she will stop now.
Allsorts
You have posted before on this Starfire. You aren't listening to your daughter or acknowledging her views. .,it seems it is a very toxic relationship and cannot be good for anyone. It is best you have a complete break from each other. If I were your daughter with concerns, I would have limited contact, because nothing ever gets sorted so cannot understand why it plays on.
I have listened. I know being around a yelling father, no matter who he is yelling at, is not healthy for kids. But to claim abuse, claim it's my fault....idk...the only way to have stopped it all would most likely be divorce. Problem with that is I had kids young and he had the chance to get a career... I did not. The court system would have granted him custody since I had no means of supporting them or putting a roof over their heads.
Ironically they may have ended up being the ones yelled at without me around.
I did not want to lose my kids and after seeing the movie Kramer Vs Kramer, I knew the days of women automatically getting the kids was in the past.
So divorce was not an option at the time.
argymargy
In the UK we have emotional abuse and coercive control enshrined in law since 2015. You may or may not have this where you are. The law recognises that abuse is not necessarily physical or sexual, yet still harmful and illegal. It is not so easy to provide examples, particularly for a child. Perhaps read up on it and it may help you discuss it with your daughter.
That's wonderful. No I do not live in the UK. In fact, the US has very liberal laws: unless there is concrete evidence of abuse, drug use, etc. then the one with the ability to provide will get custody.....yelling isn't exactly easy to prove and the degree of it.
I would have lost my kids. The best I could have had is visitation. That's why I put up with a lot of it. Now I wish I had tried to figure out how to get him to stop; I've always been very mild mannered, maybe I should have yelled back.
He actually still tries but now it's worn on me so much that I yell back. Also, no sex. I should have tried that years ago! Seems it works.
NotSpaghetti
Having worked in refuge with women escaping domestic abuse I know that you don't have to have been the one screamed at, slapped, kicked, belittled or branded to suffer.
Children suffer a lot.
I think maybe accept what she feels and don't say it's false.
The children do hear, sense, and suffer too.
You know, I have said I'm sorry. But I don't like that she calls me abusive; I was not the one doing it. I know, I allowed it although how to stop it, not sure, other than sometimes I would hide certain things from him if I knew whatever truth would get him angry. It was very trival stuff though, but kept some peace.
He used to yell if I left a light on. He gets so angry about that. A light. The thing that uses the least electricity in the house. He does have a money thing too, you would think he grew up in the Great Depression the way he acts.
My parents did and they were never that worried over a few extra dollars.
It's weird.
User138562
It sounds like they ARE giving you examples and you are saying they aren't true and dismissing them. You won't understand because you have decided they are making it up.
If you're not listening unless it's something you agree with, this will continue. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but you can't meet in the middle or work through it by refusing to acknowledge their perspective.
If you truly feel they are knowingly making it up, maybe you should distance yourself and let them get on with it. After all, how could you want a relationship with someone who makes up blatant harmful lies and tries to hold you accountable for those lies?
The only example was she didn't feel safe. Idk, the way she said it wasn't personal; she said kids should feel safe...almost sounded like it came from someone else, you know?
I did acknowledge it when she told me and said I was unaware she was scared. I never saw her run to her room or act strange during or after. She never said mom I'm scared, or is dad going to yell at me, etc. , even at an older age.
I told her had I known, I would have tried to talk to her about it.
I really think this was a bonding thing with the friend; the friend was not like us; she had tattoos, drank, practiced Wiccan magic, and was a little wild.
I have always been a reserved person. Perhaps it was exciting for my daughter. Then my daughter married the friend's brother...so...more bonding there.....
NotSpaghetti
Having worked in refuge with women escaping domestic abuse I know that you don't have to have been the one screamed at, slapped, kicked, belittled or branded to suffer.
Children suffer a lot.
I think maybe accept what she feels and don't say it's false.
The children do hear, sense, and suffer too.
I answered you above, but I want to add, I might try accepting what she feels like you said. But if I tell her that, I feel like she may get mad because she wants me to acknowledge actual abuse, which again, no real examples.
I would love it if she would accept me saying that, because actually yes, I can accept how she feels, I mean, it hurts some but ok. But the accusations and telling my grandkids I was a bad mom and grandma. Idk. That is not right.
Starfire has listened and is listening to her daughter. She asks for evidence and is called psychotic in return.
Unfair to say: That would impact your ability to parent, there were probably many times you weren't able to parent well dealing with something awful like that.
Too much credence given to unsubstantiated allegations.
It seems the child is believed unconditionally; the parent has to prove their innocence; difficult when child refuses to discuss it, face to face, with a professional or at a legal hearing.
InRainbows
What I have learned with my own children is that, they were far more aware of what was going around them than I thought. Bad memories tend to "stick" easier than good and that, what might not feel like a particularly big problem to me did to them.
I have found the best way to move forward is to deal with how they feel instead of what I remember.
It might be good for you to also examine the situation around your own abusive relationship because that is what shouting at you is. That would impact your ability to parent, there were probably many times you weren't able to parent well dealing with something awful like that. Unfortunately smiling is not proof of happiness. It can often be the opposite and someone trying very hard to overcompensate for how they feel inside. Adults and children do this. I think if you are honest with yourself you know that what she was exposed to was not healthy for her and that if you could go back now and change it, that's not a situation you would want either of you to be in.
Overall my take away from reading these situations and from my own family is that, when we start to deny their feelings or claim what they remember is false, that is when they start seeing it as abusive and "gaslighting" or "dismissive" or "invalidating". Going into it with an open mind and knowing that we aren't perfect and standards change greatly over time for parenting, can bring those relationships closer instead of pushing them apart.
You are the second person to say acknowledge how she feels. I have this feeling, that will not be enough for her. She claims I cannot accept that she was abused. Well, that's because she wasn't, at least not by me if indirect yelling counts, that was my husband.
But I will try that I think. I may say, I am sorry for how you suffered in childhood.
I am sorry you chose to stay with him. Maybe this is what your daughter meant?
I have no idea how old you are but the "Tender Years" doctrine started to be acknowledged in the 1920s/'30s, with the presumption that young children were best cared for by their mothers.
Of course,having a presumption in the legal system doesn't mean that women in abusive relationships felt able to leave - and women's refuges only came into being I think in the 1960s.
I would suggest that she feels you should have put her (and any siblings) first. This is possibly the nubof it.
Having read this post at length, I can only say that it seems to me that replying to you is a waste of time. You just don’t want to take advice, do you? Whatever is suggested, by your daughter or GNs, you turn it around to suit what you want to hear and not what is actually said. Or maybe I’ve got that wrong?
In any case, I’m out of here!
She claims I cannot accept that she was abused. Well, that's because she wasn't, at least not by me if indirect yelling counts, that was my husband
As far as she is concerned she was abused by you, even if you don't agree. Have you considered that by abuse by you she means that you did not remove her from her father's abuse or from the unhappy home? You could try saying to her "Do you mean that I abused you by not removing you from the situation with your father?" OR "I understand that you feel abused by me because I did not remove you from your father's behaviour. Am I right in that?" ". That at least is putting a specific question regarding your own actions/non actions from HER perspective.
I think it best to widen your interpretation of the word abuse as it may well be that she views your behaviours as abuse even if you don't.
Then you can consider if you can see anything that she might interpret similarly with regard to your grandchildren.
If your daughter is unable to engage in an answer to that very specific question which is acknowledging HER perspective then I think you have to bide your time really. I do suggest that you do not discuss any of this with your grandchildren; they should not be piggies in the middle
Your daughter witnessed emotional violence. That IS abuse, even if the violence wasn't directed toward her.
Is Starfire still with her husband?
She talks about him as if he is still there - he still gets cross about lights being left on.
If so, I can understand why the daughter would want to keep away and keep the grandchildren away.
I don't see the necessity in telling her children that because she doesn't agree with how she was raised, that she's raising them differently Starfire.
I can understand your concern that she maybe portraying you to your GC as a bad mother and bad GM. That's a horrible thing to do and confusing for them.
As a child, if my parent(s) were telling me that one of my GM's was a bad mother and bad GM, I'd be worried about seeing her and wondering why they were letting me do so.
I hope now you've raised this with her that she stops for the children's sake as well as your own.
I'm assuming from your post @ 10.09 that you are still with your husband, her father. Is she as critical of him as she is of you? Has she told the children that he was a bad father and is a bad GF?
I agree Madgran that this is not something Starfire should be discussing with her GC as as you say they should not be piggies in the middle and it's a shame that this is what the mother is doing.
Any issues she has with her mother should be addressed to her, She should not be using the children in this way.
I agree with your post eazybee.
By no means everyone who claims to have been abused HAS been abused. There is a trend to blame parents for everything, and these days there seems very little talk of any kind of duty of care towards parents - just expectations and criticism. Be honest and kind with yourself, Starfire 57, if you have honestly done your best then maybe rest with that? I am sorry to hear what you're going through.
My thoughts tend to go like this in family estrangements.
People estrange others for the right reasons and the wrong reasons. The right reasons would be realising this relationship is causing too much pain and cannot be saved. The wrong reason would be to get a reaction of some kind.
So that is a very easy measure to understand that a person estranged someone for the right reason and I would find it very difficult to question or judge someone who walked away fully and completely to avoid further pain.
If they have done so for the wrong reason and are hoping for a reaction, then that is where it needs to be analysed further. Is it simply wrong and they estranged to hurt you or maintain a threat till you give them some sort of property? Entirely wrong. Move on and heal.
Are they estranging hoping your reaction will be to change a behaviour, leave an abusive spouse or quit an addictive habit they can't cope with? Ball is back in your court on that one.
When you are fortunate enough to have seen where this relationship might be going without some kind of intervention then, it is time to be very honest with yourself and decide for what reason they may be headed for estrangement with you.
It's an awful situation to be in but one that can also bring a relationship back stronger. Unfortunately grandchildren aside as they are usually part of a package deal with the parent and when both parties are discussing this with them that is not healthy at all.
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