Reducing contact because my heart just isn't in it.

What I meant is unusual is when a child feels the need to drastically reduce contact with their parents.

I envy those who won't feel even a drop of relief when their parent(s) pass.

That's a ridiculous thing to say and not true User .

I've never seen an EP on this forum rather see a victim continue dealing with a toxic parent, rather than doing the right thing for (their) health and well-being and the responses that lovethepuppies has received here support that.

You asked in your OP lovethepuppies if there's a way to gently pull back with as little pain to anyone as possible and reducing the number of calls and not engaging in visits is I think the only way.

Your mum has noticed the reduction in communication so my advice FWIW is to respond with something along the lines of 'I'll ring when I can', rather than trying to give a detailed explanation which IMO will only shine a spot light on what's changed.

When we have a parent concerned about an AC reducing contact the advice is to take a step back; reduce the number of 'phone calls and texts and keeping any contact 'light' with no pressure on the AC.

As your mum is unlikely to take this approach it's up to you, having made the decision to reduce contact for your own well being, to continue rather than enabling her to pull you back in

Going low rather than no contact isn't unusual, for those who choose to do so it's preferable to estrangement and when it works, it can bring the peace that's being sought.

I hope it works for you lovethepuppies but if you reach the stage where for you estrangement is the only way forward, I hope you'll be comforted by knowing that at least you tried .

You can spend the entire day crafting the best possible explanation, finding the perfect string of words that respectfully takes into account both parties feelings, and it won't make a difference.

A normal, mature parent's response to your explanation may go something like this: "Oh my god, I had no idea I was making you feel this way. I'm so sorry and I understand why you won't take my calls anymore. I will do better from now on, and my line is always open if you ever change your mind!"

But you will never get that kind of response, not even close.

Instead, as she feels her proximity to you (i.e. control over you) start slipping, she will panic and begin utilizing manipulative tactics to bring you back into the fold. Guilt-tripping, gaslighting, bringing in 3rd parties (usually other relatives/family friends), and so on.

There will be no genuine respect for boundaries, no genuine understanding, and ultimately no genuine peace for you as long you attempt to hold low-contact with such toxic parents.

That's why the usual advice for dealing with such parents is no-contact. Except on this forum, that's for estranged parents. On here they would much rather see a victim continue dealing with a toxic parent, rather than doing the right thing for your health and well-being.

Good luck, but I see a long, turbulent path ahead of you as you attempt to navigate this unusual situation.

I'm now getting complaints that she misses my calls. I told her we chat plenty over text but she wants to hear my voice. I'm going to have to give an explanation, aren't I? Release us both from the expectation.

That’s great love the puppies & I wish you well!

Thank you Smileless. And thank you everyone else for helping me work through this.

FWIW I agree that what you've described is reasonable middle ground lovethepuppies.

It's good to know that you've been able to be totally open with your husband and have his support.

Peace and relief are priceless .

I was able to have a good talk with my husband today. He didn't know that my first thought when I knew my mother was planning a visit was to think about how I could lose weight before she came. That is only one issue though, the others being things I haven't posted here.

We have agreed that the daily brief text communication is the best way forward. I am not going to phone. I am not going to visit. We are not going to have them visit. If they ask why, I will tell them why (but not about the weight thing as that will be denied and it's not really the most pressing thing in the equation).

I feel this is reasonable middle ground with maintaining safe contact without too much distance. We'll see how things go, but I have peace and relief for now.

Wishing you well lovethepuppies

Thanks for sharing experiences. I find I don't really think of how my father was when we were younger so much. What matter is now. It's so true though that we really don't know what goes on behind closed doors, for better or worse. It was helpful talking to my sister earlier this year though. We've never really done that before and I found out, for sure, that it isn't just a me thing. She has her own issues with our mother, some very similar overlap over the years too.

I haven't posted all the details of what has happened here. I think the specific situation could be pretty outing. I'm still sad about and it didn't really anticipate this happening, but it has and I'm going to find a new balance that considers what's good for me. I'm usually accommodating everyone else and their needs and feelings, I just don't have the energy for that at this time as far as my mother goes.

I can't change it, so I need to work for acceptance and a new pattern. It's not what I want but need to accept is the reality.

As an adult, I got on fairly well with my father as long as I didn't have much contact with him. We spoke on the phone every couple of weeks and I visited him about every 6 weeks. (My mother died quite young so he lived on his own for the rest of his life, although he had a new partner in later years who didn't live with him).

When I had to spend a lot of time at his house in his final year, I was reminded of my childhood and what a selfish, domineering male chauvinist he was. I dreaded driving to his house every day. At his funeral a male relative said "you couldn't meet a nicer bloke" and I simply smiled and agreed with him. I know I did my best for him in his final months but it's taken me a few years to process and I wish I had happier memories.

I had an aunt who was the most perfect, wife, mother, aunt, and grandmother - so long as it suited her, you did what she said, agreed with her. If you didn't she would turn into a monster and, as she was also clever, would make you the perpetrator. Both her daughters estranged her, she fell out with all her neighbours, and friends. She was really a very toxic person. The whole situation was very sad as it went on for sixty years. All is quiet now, but somehow my mother survived by just saying: Ooh, yes, I know.

we do get to choose our relationship with them once we are older at least which is what lovethepuppies is doing, in a mature and healthy way.

lovethepuppies

Smileless2012

Behaviour can be toxic without the perpetrator being inherently toxic or malicious User, so if lovethepuppies says her mother isn't toxic, she's in a far better position to say so then you are to suggest that she is.

Few people are all bad. My mother has done some shocking behaviours, yet she visited regularly, was generous with my children, would be there in a real emergency. I do know some of her generous moves were to meet her own needs (will spare the details). She has some issues for sure, which I don't think she has the awareness of herself, but there are the nice times, the conversations we can share about our gardens, that sort of thing. I think it's partly a hormonal thing on my part that I just don't have the energy to be managing those issues at this point in time, which is why it's come to a head now. It just took a trigger event to bring everything to a head for me.

Good times don't justify the bad times. I'm not saying your mother is abusive (though the behaviors you described are definitely examples of extremely poor parenting), but abusive people are rarely abusive 100% of the time. Abusers usually mix in good moments to confuse their victims and make their escape less likely and/or very delayed.

But at the end of the day, abusive (and neglectful) behavior is never justifiable. No-one is perfect, we all make mistakes, but being able to change once confronted with said mistakes is what separates healthy and toxic people.

This is like a wife with a black eye showing up and defending her abusive husband, saying he's not all bad. He pays the bills, treats her to nice expensive vacations, is good with the kids, etc. That's not healthy, and all of those nice things can be done without abuse being in the mix when being with the right person.

Sadly we don't get to choose our parents, but we do get to choose our relationship with them once we are older at least.

Smileless2012

Behaviour can be toxic without the perpetrator being inherently toxic or malicious User, so if lovethepuppies says her mother isn't toxic, she's in a far better position to say so then you are to suggest that she is.

Its difficult for people to admit that they have toxic parents. lovethepuppies may be (and probably is) too emotionally invested to see things clearly and factually, but the things she describes are objectively toxic.

- Creating/reinforcing self-esteem issues (directly comparing her physical looks to her sister's)
- Invading privacy and overstepping boundaries (checking labels on personal clothes)
- Gaslighting and minimizing her feelings to avoid accountability and change
- Severe emotional neglect

Everyone makes mistakes, but healthy people are able to listen to criticism and make changes. Her mother clearly is incapable of doing so.

There really is only one correct move when dealing with toxic people, and it's reducing contact (which she has already done). You wouldn't normally reduce contact with someone who is mature and capable of change.

I won't be giving my mother all the reasons if she asks btw. It's not worth it, and I still don't want to be too hurtful. I will keep it brief and simple.

There is no point discussing it. Anticipated responses would be: "Oh, that's nonsense." "That's not true." "It's not that bad." Active gaslighting too. From the day I was born, my feelings and experiences have been dismissed and invalidated, so best save my energy.

Smileless2012

Behaviour can be toxic without the perpetrator being inherently toxic or malicious User, so if lovethepuppies says her mother isn't toxic, she's in a far better position to say so then you are to suggest that she is.

Few people are all bad. My mother has done some shocking behaviours, yet she visited regularly, was generous with my children, would be there in a real emergency. I do know some of her generous moves were to meet her own needs (will spare the details). She has some issues for sure, which I don't think she has the awareness of herself, but there are the nice times, the conversations we can share about our gardens, that sort of thing. I think it's partly a hormonal thing on my part that I just don't have the energy to be managing those issues at this point in time, which is why it's come to a head now. It just took a trigger event to bring everything to a head for me.

nadateturbe

"That's important for my peace of mind."
Whatever will achieve this for you when they are no longer here. You don't want any regret, we can't turn the clock back.

I've kept that in mind. They aren't getting any younger. I have no doubt there will be regret, regret that things weren't different, but I also have regret about not being more decisive about some things earlier in life.

If one of them does die, I will regret not having the chance to see them. If they come and some of the reasons I am wary of them doing so happen during the visit, I will regret that I opened that door.

I think the best of a difficult situation is to keep up the daily messages, maybe phone on special occasions and that's enough. I did try to visit them recently, which ended up being the catalyst for change, oddly, but that's what it is.

"That's important for my peace of mind."
Whatever will achieve this for you when they are no longer here. You don't want any regret, we can't turn the clock back.

*I did once tell her to stop discussing weight issues around my children, which she actually did. I'm still fair game though. She checks the labels in my clothes*

Clearly she has some issues about weight.
That's a her problem, not yours.
Talking about weight to children is toxic.
Checking your labels is scary.

Behaviour can be toxic without the perpetrator being inherently toxic or malicious User, so if lovethepuppies says her mother isn't toxic, she's in a far better position to say so then you are to suggest that she is.

Earlier you said she isn't toxic overall but what you just mentioned is in fact pretty toxic.

Some thoughts should stay as inside thoughts, and it's wildly inappropriate for a parent to share those thoughts out loud to a child. It would be inappropriate for anyone for that matter.

You might find it difficult to see it as toxic, since it's what was normal to you back then. In the same way someone from a more warm, loving family would find it difficult imagining being treated that way by their parent.

User143891, I did once tell her to stop discussing weight issues around my children, which she actually did. I'm still fair game though. She checks the labels in my clothes (under the guise of being helpful folding washing, which I've banned her from) and was visibly rattled when I was wearing the same size as her. When she said something about the same size I pointed out that my significantly greater height meant it was impossible to compare anyway. She denied that, but went on a diet as soon as she got home. She has always been pretty critical in general. Not so much of my sister (who she told me, when I was a teen, is beautiful while I'm 'pretty enough'). She's always been quite critical and invalidating of emotions. I've made a point of doing quite the opposite with my children because I know how it feels.

I will definitely be saying no to her visiting later this year. I don't have to worry about her judgement as well as managing the needs of many others her presence creates. That's actually quite exhausting.

lovethepuppies

It's interesting the things you notice when you step back. I have never said no to a visit from my parents before. I don't see them very often anyway. With my decision to not have them visit later this year, I feel relief. My mother has always had an eating disorder that has lingered in her mentality. I have a BMI of 26.5. Not awful, but not skinny either. I eat healthily most of the time and I am fit. I've realised that the first thing that comes to mind when a visit is planned is, "OMG, how can I lose weight before she gets here?" That is toxic, even if my parents aren't toxic overall. She actually uses me and my body to measure herself against. The comments are subtle, but they are there. This is reinforcing for me that this is something that is definitely past due and some firmness about it is justified.

While that is probably the most recent and prominent example currently on your mind about her, but the way she makes you feel is indicative of bigger problems.

You defend and justify her behavior by compartmentalizing it into an eating disorder, which is justifiable because its something she doesn't have control over or is at fault for. But not making your problems, internal or otherwise, into other peoples problems is something everyone has control over. I personally think its egregiously worse when this problematic behavior affects one's child. Maybe if it was just a friend or coworker, it would be more acceptable in my mind.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to make the assumption that at some point in your life you have attempted to directly communicate your feelings about this personal issue to her and nothing changed.

Subtle comments and making others feel like they must lose weight is not part of an eating disorder, it's a personality disorder.

It's interesting the things you notice when you step back. I have never said no to a visit from my parents before. I don't see them very often anyway. With my decision to not have them visit later this year, I feel relief. My mother has always had an eating disorder that has lingered in her mentality. I have a BMI of 26.5. Not awful, but not skinny either. I eat healthily most of the time and I am fit. I've realised that the first thing that comes to mind when a visit is planned is, "OMG, how can I lose weight before she gets here?" That is toxic, even if my parents aren't toxic overall. She actually uses me and my body to measure herself against. The comments are subtle, but they are there. This is reinforcing for me that this is something that is definitely past due and some firmness about it is justified.