I need advice for a mutually messy situation

Allsorts

Why are people judging the father as narcissistic? Based no doubt on their own experiences. He has paid for heart surgery, bought groceries when she couldn't afford them, thats not a hard man. He has supported her with mental health struggles. There is no way in the world I could cut him out of my life. This estranging people is all about control with lots of people
these days, to switch off and walk away from anyone who disagrees or is challenging, to be honest I would not want that person in my life anyway so good riddance. I have a family member with mental health issues who has successfully alienated every single member of his family because he's disruptive, argumentative etc but also vulnerable, kind and can be thoughtful, it is very hard especially asI get older and I am scared if how he will be when I am gone, but until that day i see the good in him, the pain he must be in, no one chooses to be like that..
Sundowner, do not doubt your father cares. He is not narcisstic.

I'll tell you exactly why he's a narcissist, but why do you equate spending money with love?

That money spent wasn't even a sacrifice for him. He didn't spend his last penny on her or even miss a meal. Spending money is easy when you have an abundance of it, it doesn't automatically mean you love someone. There are many reasons to spend money on someone that don't involve love. Mainly for control (look how much I spent on you, you are obliged to love me back) or appearances (imagine the gossip around him if his daughter died because she couldn't afford surgery).

The reason he is clearly a narcissist is because sundown described him as someone who doesn't care about other's feelings and who lives in self-fabricated delusions in order to avoid reality.

Narcissist's have an extremely fragile and frail ego that can be knocked over by a simple gust of wind. This prevents them from ever genuinely admitting they made a mistake, and in turn, prevents them from growing and changing.

Equating spending money with love is a very harmful line of thinking. It's something I heard a lot as a child and it only kept me confused and in the hands of my abusers for longer than I ever should have been.

Instead, you should be telling people that love requires empathy and kindness. Being willing to listen, like genuinely listen, to others. Love never involves intentionally causing pain, and if pain was caused, it's swiftly followed by an apology and meaningful change from the perpetrator.

I wish I was told that spending money doesn't justify, excuse or negate the pain my parents intentionally caused me. Instead I was told exactly this absolute tripe, that their money was a clear indication of their love for me.

Madgran77

*User But the idea that a child should be the bigger person than their parent is asinine. What about the saying that wisdom comes with age? Parents are always decades older than their child and also had the responsibility of raising said child, so expecting the child to be the bigger person is illogical and unreasonable.*

But once a child is an adult they CAN choose to behave in a more "mature" way than their parent. That is if one thinks of "being the bigger person" as
choosing maturity, restraint, and grace instead of reacting with petty retaliation, anger, or revenge when someone treats you poorly.

You most definitely gave the impression that people should be accepting bad treatment, since you indirectly categorize estrangement as "petty retaliation, anger, and revenge", when in reality estrangement is done out of necessity and self-preservation when faced with toxic people who are incapable of change (i.e. narcissists).

Also, there is nothing wrong with anger or other negative emotions. Attempts at demonizing and suppressing negative emotions only enables abuse to happen. Feeling negative emotions over a negative situation isn't just reasonable, but also healthy, since those negative emotions give us a clear indication that something is wrong.

One should feel angry if their parent doesn't care how they feel, and especially if they continue to be hurt by them.

Abusers are truly grateful for those who try to suppress and demonize a victim's anger, disappointment, and grief.

User You most definitely gave the impression that people should be accepting bad treatment, since you indirectly categorize estrangement as "petty retaliation, anger, and revenge", when in reality estrangement is done out of necessity and self-preservation when faced with toxic people who are incapable of change

I categorically do NOT categorise estrangement in that way atall and never have done.

I did not refer to estrangement in my comment, I only referred to your statement which I think is incorrect. My definition of "being the bigger person" was purely in response to what appeared to be your generalised statement re suggesting an AC to be the bigger person was "asinine"! I was referring to that in terms of what appeared to be a generalised statement about AC and parents rather than just specifically the OP.

As it happens I think the OP is absolutely doing the right thing for herself. But I do not agree that in relevant contexts an AC cannot be the bigger person. Age, experience and maturity as referred to by yourself have nothing to do with it.

I suggest we do not derail the OPs post and request for help and advice any further

What exactly do you think "being bigger" means? It's not talking about literal size, but being the more mature one, taking the high road. Or in this case, asking the OP to be less emotional, even though her negative feelings are valid, which is a point that's never mentioned by those telling her to be the bigger person.

If age, experience and maturity truly have nothing to do with it than you wouldn't look like an absolute fool when telling an 8 year old to be the bigger person in a dispute with a 28 year old.

Madgran clearly isn't talking about literal size^; size has nothing to do with it neither is she ^asking the OP to be less emotional.

Your inability or unwillingness to see her particular situation and to understand the supportive, understanding and helpful responses she's received, is because you continually project your own experiences onto others.

I do think User that Bluebell is correct, you cannot see past your own situation. Sundowner will do as she seems right. I just wish the words, toxic and narcisstistic were not bandied about for people which clearly are not. I suppose it justifies actions for some and undermines others that genuinely suffer
from an abusive parents or child. No point commenting further.

Unfortunately User this has become all about you.
sundown seems very happy with her decision and it’s not fair for you to pour cold water on it with every post.

Please get more help for your own situation you come across as very unwell

User149381

Allsorts

Why are people judging the father as narcissistic? Based no doubt on their own experiences. He has paid for heart surgery, bought groceries when she couldn't afford them, thats not a hard man. He has supported her with mental health struggles. There is no way in the world I could cut him out of my life. This estranging people is all about control with lots of people
these days, to switch off and walk away from anyone who disagrees or is challenging, to be honest I would not want that person in my life anyway so good riddance. I have a family member with mental health issues who has successfully alienated every single member of his family because he's disruptive, argumentative etc but also vulnerable, kind and can be thoughtful, it is very hard especially asI get older and I am scared if how he will be when I am gone, but until that day i see the good in him, the pain he must be in, no one chooses to be like that..
Sundowner, do not doubt your father cares. He is not narcisstic.

I'll tell you exactly why he's a narcissist, but why do you equate spending money with love?

That money spent wasn't even a sacrifice for him. He didn't spend his last penny on her or even miss a meal. Spending money is easy when you have an abundance of it, it doesn't automatically mean you love someone. There are many reasons to spend money on someone that don't involve love. Mainly for control (look how much I spent on you, you are obliged to love me back) or appearances (imagine the gossip around him if his daughter died because she couldn't afford surgery).

The reason he is clearly a narcissist is because sundown described him as someone who doesn't care about other's feelings and who lives in self-fabricated delusions in order to avoid reality.

Narcissist's have an extremely fragile and frail ego that can be knocked over by a simple gust of wind. This prevents them from ever genuinely admitting they made a mistake, and in turn, prevents them from growing and changing.

Equating spending money with love is a very harmful line of thinking. It's something I heard a lot as a child and it only kept me confused and in the hands of my abusers for longer than I ever should have been.

Instead, you should be telling people that love requires empathy and kindness. Being willing to listen, like genuinely listen, to others. Love never involves intentionally causing pain, and if pain was caused, it's swiftly followed by an apology and meaningful change from the perpetrator.

I wish I was told that spending money doesn't justify, excuse or negate the pain my parents intentionally caused me. Instead I was told exactly this absolute tripe, that their money was a clear indication of their love for me.

Just to be clear - a relevant diagnosis of narcissism can only be diagnosed by an experienced psychiatrist or psychologist. Bandying the word on the net about signifies nothing. 🙄

Sundown is happy with the advice and support she received on here. She is doing what she feels will make her happy. You projecting your own unhappiness and bitterness on her isn’t really helpful. 🤷‍♀️

Every family situation is unique, and I’m sure Sundown understands her parents better than you.

Your experiences may well have been different.

I wish her luck. 👍

Smileless2012

Madgran clearly isn't talking about literal size^; size has nothing to do with it neither is she ^asking the OP to be less emotional.

Your inability or unwillingness to see her particular situation and to understand the supportive, understanding and helpful responses she's received, is because you continually project your own experiences onto others.

Thankyou Smileless! Such a breathtakingly ridiculous commentary that is not helpful to the OP or helping and advising her as per her request! 🙄

I'm sure many of you can relate with her father

User149381

I'm sure many of you can relate with her father

Whatever User! Not engaging in your deliberately provocative statements and I hope others don't either! Lets keep the focus on the OP!

The one we can relate too User is sundown; it's a pity that you can't.

Playing devil's advocate here but can we please not be unkind to someone who is clearly trying to help and has experienced similar things. Our dear OP has mentioned mental health issues and mental health is so fragile that it is important she isn't in a situation that may make that worse and I can understand why someone would want to protect her.

I think we can all take feedback on how what we are saying might be heard when giving advice and perhaps apply being the "bigger person" to ourselves when commenting. We have landed in a position of responsibility towards someone else here in a way that does carry a lot of weight and need to be careful we see the big picture and don't place someone at risk of abuse.

In my situation, which is also how I relate to this, my family member has said very little about why she has estranged but the more I read from people like User the more I see that the estranged party is revealing more than they think. The denial, dismissal and unwillingness to change is all there. The anger and bitterness that their child is not accepting them the way they are. I have begun to see a lot I had overlooked before and make sense of strains I didn't understand at the time.

If it is possible that someone else sees issues we don't at first then perhaps we should listen. It's not our own relationships we are defending after all.

I'm on the position I am getting a lot out of every comment I read here and the different perspectives are all incredibly helpful.

I see very little in User's posts that can be viewed as trying to help InRainbows.

How is telling her that her father is a narcissist helpful? I agree with BlueBelle that she is pouring cold water on the
mature, compassionate and understanding decision sundown has made, which includes identifying what she sees are failings on her part that have contributed to the estrangement.

Not only is she constantly criticising the OP's father and seeking to denigrate what the OP sees as 'good' and 'loving' in him, she is offensive in some of her posts about those here who are trying to give sundown what she came here for:
advice for a mutually messy situation.

It's blatantly obvious what is meant by I'm sure many of you can relate with her father which is offensive, as some of her deleted posts have been.

User may rightly not see that she had any part to play in the circumstances that resulted in her estranging her parents, but that is not how sundown feels in relation to her father.

She should be responded too on the basis of what we've been told and not have the experience of someone else projected onto her in such a negative and unhelpful way.

InRainbows

Yes, you’re right, in some respects, with some` estranged people revealing more about themselves than they think.

Equally, some estrangers also reveal more of themselves than they think.

I’ve got my own experiences from all ways - being estranged, (not by my birth children), being the estranger, (all good for me), and being in a whirlwind of a bouncing estrangement, hurting a person I loved very much, for 18 years. 🤷‍♀️

But, I’ve got the common sense to know that all situations are different, and I don’t project my life onto others, with theirs.

My only view is that if you choose to estrange, because you feel you need to, then do that, and lead a happy life. That’s, surely, the point of doing it. 🤷‍♀️. To bring healing and happiness.

I can’t see the point of estranging and then still festering on childhood days. We can’t change the past - best enjoy the future. 👍

Smileless2012

Well, Sundown has decided to go for light contact and see how it pans out - good for her. 👍

I hope it turns out well for her, and her parents.

I also hope she got some good advice from some.

Relationships with family are tricky - sometimes both sides are less than perfect. 🤷‍♀️

I agree with InRainbows about some revealing more than they think, though - especially the ‘newer’ posters. 😉

When I look for advice I do want all of it, rough and smooth. If the primary focus is to support the person asking for advice then I think we have achieved that. I hope we can remain supportive of each other too because I need that as much as the next person some days.

I find that advice that focuses entirely upon the advisors experiences is rarely useful.

When you sEek advice the knowledge that you are not always ne in an experience can be supportive but everybody’s experiences are different.

When the advisor givs advice based solely on their own personal experiences it shows that they have not listened and identified those differences.

That means their advice can only be of limited value. If at all.

you are not alone

InRainbows

Playing devil's advocate here but can we please not be unkind to someone who is clearly trying to help and has experienced similar things. Our dear OP has mentioned mental health issues and mental health is so fragile that it is important she isn't in a situation that may make that worse and I can understand why someone would want to protect her.

I think we can all take feedback on how what we are saying might be heard when giving advice and perhaps apply being the "bigger person" to ourselves when commenting. We have landed in a position of responsibility towards someone else here in a way that does carry a lot of weight and need to be careful we see the big picture and don't place someone at risk of abuse.

In my situation, which is also how I relate to this, my family member has said very little about why she has estranged but the more I read from people like User the more I see that the estranged party is revealing more than they think. The denial, dismissal and unwillingness to change is all there. The anger and bitterness that their child is not accepting them the way they are. I have begun to see a lot I had overlooked before and make sense of strains I didn't understand at the time.

If it is possible that someone else sees issues we don't at first then perhaps we should listen. It's not our own relationships we are defending after all.

I'm on the position I am getting a lot out of every comment I read here and the different perspectives are all incredibly helpful.

I do take your point In Rainbows but I think in the context of the recent posts a line must be drawn at provocative and decidedly unhelpful comments to the OP or about other posters.

Lathyrus3

I find that advice that focuses entirely upon the advisors experiences is rarely useful.

When you sEek advice the knowledge that you are not always ne in an experience can be supportive but everybody’s experiences are different.

When the advisor givs advice based solely on their own personal experiences it shows that they have not listened and identified those differences.

That means their advice can only be of limited value. If at all.

I agree.

I wish my niece would talk more to me. Maybe she is afraid that I will judge her experiences or the emotions tied to her decision. I just want to be able to help. My sister I am supporting the best that I can too but there is so much anger and any situation she mentions are garbled with no wrong found on her part. It's dawning on me that perhaps I don't know either as well as I once thought and the help I offer may not be what is needed.

InRainbows

I wish my niece would talk more to me. Maybe she is afraid that I will judge her experiences or the emotions tied to her decision. I just want to be able to help. My sister I am supporting the best that I can too but there is so much anger and any situation she mentions are garbled with no wrong found on her part. It's dawning on me that perhaps I don't know either as well as I once thought and the help I offer may not be what is needed.

Have you ever shared any information from your niece to your sister? Even if its small useless information.

I don't think so, what I am told in confidence I keep, since estrangement I don't bring up the subject and I have said nothing more than she is well or that I have seen her.

The only help you can provide is a listening ear and a shoulder to cry on if one is needed InRainbows.

FWIW I think not bringing up the subject is the right approach as is keeping whatever you are told confidential.

If your sister isn't open to a different point of view or perspective on the situation with her daughter, there's little sense in pursuing it. I realise that you may worry that not opposing her may look like you're in agreement but if I remember correctly, you've tried in the past so maybe changing the subject would be the best was forward.

With the best will in the world regardless of how well we know someone, we can never know what it's really like to experience what they're going through, even if we've been through the same thing ourselves.