I need advice for a mutually messy situation

When the tremendous, but much needed leap of estranging my parents, I heard many of the same (ultimately unhelpful and counterproductive) sentiments found on this thread. Almost word for word even.

I was lucky in a sense, that my mistreatment was so bizarre, brazen, and severe that it left little to no confusion about how I felt about my parents. When it eventually became abundantly clear to me that my parents had absolutely no place in my life, the instances of toxic positivity that followed had no effect on me or my decision making.

It showed me that the world by and large seldomly has empathy for victims of parental abuse. Most people would rather go down the path of least resistance. Holding people accountable and demanding change requires much more effort and headache than simply encouraging the victim to continue taking the abuse/mistreatment.

I can imagine someone else who didn't have good enough parents, but weren't as bad as mine, successfully falling for this toxic positivity and having more of their life wasted on toxic people.

Personally I don't see the merit in a surface level, ingenuine relationship with anyone, family or not. But do whatever makes you happy, and hopefully going forward the father can behave properly and never hurt and disappoint you again.

Unfortunately you can’t see beyond your own horrible childhood User and that totally colours all your posts.
You seem to judge all relationships by your own experiences, but everyone is different and every experience and reaction to that experience is different, This appears to be where something is missing in your own healing
This thread is not about you but you have seemed to dominate it with your own experiences
Let’s get back to Sundown who seems to have made some very sensible judgements without bitterness
I hope we hear from you in the future Sundown that you have had a peaceful meal out with mum and dad and that you have moved forward into a new era of the relationship

User 143981. Thank you for sharing this. Yes, it resonates. I have been even been called Polyanna (!) So, yes, all of this seems fairly familiar to me. We each negociate life as best we can. I had to do so without therapy when I was young and middle aged, but I did have reading, especially poetry, and literature, including philosophy in 2 languages. That has always been a huge solace to me. My family was all part of the emotional abuse, all of them, and it is still ongoing. But as you say, by accepting we are enabling, and as none of us can deal with situations in isolation, we have to largely endure people who can't or won't change their ways, of how they are. Now, at my age, I can look back on it all, and see, yes, "emotional abuse". I would love to have tried to change things, but the situations were too complex and extreme. I was a child, then an adolescent, then in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, when finally I sought help (at 50?) ...So, I had to get into my little canoe, and paddle in through the waters as best I could. Yes, I had to distance myself, ignore things I should have called out, (as when I did call them out, I was bullied, banished, or humiliated.) Sadly, these patterns have been repeated through the generations of my family, the emotional abuse is shot through it all. (The positives are these. ...At the end of the day, my parents loved me. I am very grateful to be here, and my life has been blessed in many ways, one of which is a huge empathy. I do feel for victims of abuse, especially emotional abuse, which is so insidious that we don't always know we suffered it. (It actually went nameless until recently.) But, looking back, these people, were our family, they too likely victims of trauma, and they too were without tools or education,( so largely unable to break the cycle. ) I could write hundreds of paragraphs, books... Suffice to say that with seeking help, you can decide to assess and act accordingly. Accept this situation for what it is perhaps. That it is about the perpetrator not you, and act then accordingly. My advice? Try to see them as a human being. I think that speaking your truth to trusted people is also very, very important, so talk to trusted friends. They too will have a perspective that may illuminate. We all have to go through things in life, the unpleasant people are sadly a part of it, and each person copes with cruelty with varying success and to varying degrees. As the writer has acknowledged, she can't change her father. That to me is the crux. But, however flawed he is, he still loves her. That, to me, is his one key redeeming quality. I hope that she can find a way to deal with him, because estrangement is not really the whole answer, although it is an easier path that so many people increasingly take. I haven't said everything here. There is not enough space. I don't want to seem glib, as it is an important topic. I just feel that estrangement is so strongly advocated for, perhaps too easily? It is the easy route, rather than dealing with the reality of the person, and the forgiveness it takes. I have always taken "the path less travelled by", and yes, tgat has "made all the difference" I wouldn't change that for the world. I hope that she finds peace. She is not alone. As the desiderata says it is still a beautiful world. Strive to be happy.

Estrangement isn't for everyone StTrinians and when it's chosen, it doesn't always bring the healing and peace envisaged which is perhaps what sundown has found being estranged from her father, and why she would love to mend the brokenness of (their) relationship, which I hope she'll manage to achieve.

I sometimes think it is easy to blame what we like to call a narcissistic/ toxic parent.
They get demonized without any thought that they might detest the behaviours they exhibit. Beat themselves up afterwards. Sundown has mentioned the loving things her father has done for her….maybe that is his way of expressing his love. It can’t just be dismissed.
She also mentioned the ‘horrible’ childhood he had. No doubt many of his issues stem from this, and his behaviour accordingly. People love to denounce narcissists and yet forget they have a serious personality disorder that they seemingly can’t do anything about. A thought…can some compassion be found instead of outrage (not meaning you Sundown).
I think it unlikely you can change his behaviour towards you at this stage. My advice would be to find ways to manage it - good boundaries as others have said, removing yourself if things become uncomfortable, speaking out if you disagree or feel diminished. Keeping in touch by text for a while if physical proximity gets difficult. If you can feel pity/compassion for him it might be easier. It is admirable you are able to acknowledge his kind heart in this struggle. It isn’t easy……but neither is it helpful to write off another person. We are all a mixture of shades of light and dark. Some have had opportunities to see this and work on it. Others haven’t/ for whatever reason aren’t able to do so. Your father whilst difficult has shown he loves you. I really hope you can find a way to manage the situation Sundown, and accept he may not be able to be the father you might hope for, but even so find something to cherish in the relationship. Wishing you well!

sundown

I'm coming from the perspective of a daughter who has estranged herself from her father. I have a great relationship with my mom, but I simply can't keep holding up the relationship with my father. I've tried talking to him many times, to no avail.

He doesn't take my thoughts or feelings into consideration; he believes that as long as he's comfortable with his words and actions, everyone else should be too. He can't see outside of his own perspective. He constantly dismisses me and makes me uncomfortable, then says it's my fault and that I need to change myself to suit his needs yet he would never change any of his behaviors for me.

It feels like he's stuck in a fantasy version of reality. When there's a problem, his go-to is to ignore, dismiss, deflect, or straight-up pretend that what's happening isn't happening. If anyone pushes back, he explodes. It leaves you in a position where you just have to stay quiet and never speak up for yourself if it goes against his narrative.

At the same time, he has made many sacrifices for me. He’s brought me groceries when I was sick, paid for my heart surgery, and financially supported me through my struggles with mental health issues. That being said, I'm no angel. I don't think I've been a great daughter either. I have been absent and cold when things were inconvenient for me, and I haven't made sacrifices for him.

I would love to mend the brokenness of our relationship, but how can I do that with someone who values their own comfort over our relationship (I guess the same could be said about me too, icing him out for my comfort)? I know he's lonely and hurting from our broken bond (my mom tells me about it), and I feel terrible, but I genuinely don't know what to do.

My best advice is just to do what makes you feel happiest.

If it’s no contact - then fine.

If it’s low contact - also fine

If it’s to try and build a new relationship from now on- then fine again.

You’re an adult now - you can make the choices.

I’ve estranged a few family members - I’ve always been clear with the reasons, I’ve made sure it was the right decision for me, and I’ve told them (by voice) why I’d made that decision.

Then, I’ve never looked back or given them headspace. Because I took the time to make the decision.

The past has gone - look to what you want in the future.

Life doesn’t always need to be dramas, therapy, navel gazing - just follow your own feelings. 😉

@User 143981

But the idea that a child should be the bigger person than their parent is asinine. What about the saying that wisdom comes with age? Parents are always decades older than their child

Have you never heard old age described as "a second childhood"?

By the time the parent reaches old age , their adult child may have far surpassed them in wisdom, maturity, resilience, breadth of life experience. And in empathy, tolerance, resilience.

My eldest son and his friends are all middle aged senior medics and admit they are comparing notes and observations on their respective aged parents progress into antiquity. I'm conscious of DH and me being sideways- eye observed and occasionally, very subtly supported.

The problem is Spring, people are labelling people they've never even met as narcissists, toxic, damaged and abusive and at times because they're projecting their personal experiences onto others.

sundown came here looking for advice and the vast majority of responses have provided that but it's a shame to have seen them referred to as unhelpful and counterproductive sentiments because they don't align with someone's personal experience.

As a parent whose been estranged for more than 13.5 years, I have found this thread particularly moving and uplifting, beginning with the OP; sundown's subsequent posts and the informative and supportive responses which for the most part, she's received.

Thank you for starting it sundown. I have a feeling you'll have helped others who are living with all the pain and grief that estrangement can bring.

Absolutely, B&J.

We're all people, everyone's someone's child & a lot of us are parents. Trump is a parent. I would like to think I could be a bigger person than Trump in his situation (though I accept I never will be).

We're all fallible. Parenthood was just a rite of passage for our generation, not something you chose after years of analysing whether it was right for you.And in the present child-bearing generation there are parents who cannot even provide basic needs of their child because of drug addiction or other MH problems.

Don't blame your parents for you being here - they didn't choose you any more than you chose them. Estrange them if you must but don't encourage others to see their parents as the cause of all that's wrong in their world because they're usually not.

Smileless2012
Being a long time member like yourself I remember that awful time. I was so impressed and pleased in the way you and your husband came the decision you did.

I just want to thank everyone for taking the time to read my story. It really means a lot to me, and I’ve taken your advice to heart. I had gone to friends and family for advice before, but it wasn't helpful; it was always one extreme or the other, with no nuance.

I was content to let sleeping dogs lie until I learned that my father had gotten sick. I'm not sure of his exact diagnosis, but he has autoimmune disorders that have gotten so bad they forced my workaholic father to retire early. That scared me. To give context, my father’s job used to have to force him to take vacation days.

I've taken the day to sit with the situation and think. I've finally come to a decision and worked up the courage to schedule dinner with both of my parents tomorrow. I plan to keep things light and positive, as suggested, and I'll make sure to express some gratitude. Hopefully, all goes well. Wish me luck!

Ps. Seriously, thank you so much for all the encouragement. It's helped tremendously. I'm now able to see through a new lens that I had closed myself off to. Anger had blinded me to only take my pain and experience into account.

To say I hope it goes well would be an understatement sundown and of course I wish you luck; lots of luck.

I'm so pleased that having the courage to post here because it does take courage, has helped and it would be lovely if you were able to come back and let us know how it goes.

Great post valdali, especially the final paragraph.

Thank you petra, that's very kind and much appreciated. .

Thank you, Smileless2012! I'll be sure to update you afterward. You've been so welcoming and kind. Wishing you all the best and an amazing week ahead too!

sundown x

Have you ever heard the saying "you can't change others, only yourself"

I think that you have to understand that changing yourself for the better or how you are around your father is not dependent on him changing. You really don't need to help him to help you.

If I am honest, the relationships around me, none are perfect but I notice there is a tendency to have trouble weighing this up with family. Most of us would say the good far outweighs the bad in relationships we feel secure in but when it is family that we have strong attachments too, we give more weight to the good naturally without thought.

If you are estranged right now and you know that going back won't change things with him and those things bring you pain then take this time to heal yourself from what has affected your mental health. I would guess that only then will you be in a position to weigh up this relationship and decide how to proceed. Even should you feel the need to apologise for your part in how things turned out, if a change in you brings no change in him then you will have your answer.

We can and do change for those we are capable of loving truly. Every person is capable of respecting those boundaries that are so important these days. Avoiding subjects. Putting things kindly. Keeping our anger in check. Not doing so is a choice. If someone can not choose to be a better person for you then I expect that is because on some level they enjoy being a person who hurts you.

Wonderful news Sundown I hope all goes well and I hope this is a new era in your life
I think you are feeling lighter already
Can’t wait to hear how it goes
💐

Why are people judging the father as narcissistic? Based no doubt on their own experiences. He has paid for heart surgery, bought groceries when she couldn't afford them, thats not a hard man. He has supported her with mental health struggles. There is no way in the world I could cut him out of my life. This estranging people is all about control with lots of people
these days, to switch off and walk away from anyone who disagrees or is challenging, to be honest I would not want that person in my life anyway so good riddance. I have a family member with mental health issues who has successfully alienated every single member of his family because he's disruptive, argumentative etc but also vulnerable, kind and can be thoughtful, it is very hard especially asI get older and I am scared if how he will be when I am gone, but until that day i see the good in him, the pain he must be in, no one chooses to be like that..
Sundowner, do not doubt your father cares. He is not narcisstic.

Anger had blinded me to only take my pain and experience into account.

That strikes me as being profound.

sundown I've taken the day to sit with the situation and think. I've finally come to a decision and worked up the courage to schedule dinner with both of my parents tomorrow. I plan to keep things light and positive, as suggested, and I'll make sure to express some gratitude. Hopefully, all goes well. Wish me luck!

Sound like a good plan, light and positive is nice. Hopefully, renewed contact, with Mum present, will lesten your upset.

You can't change your father When there's a problem, his go-to is to ignore, dismiss, deflect, or straight-up pretend that what's happening isn't happening. If anyone pushes back, he explodes. It leaves you in a position where you just have to stay quiet and never speak up for yourself if it goes against his narrative. But you can ignore is behaviour as much as is possible.

I agree fancythat.

Sundown. Wishing you all the very best with the dinner. As previous posters have said it takes great courage to post on the forum. I am happy that you have found some of the advice helpful. I really wish you all the best. Good luck. Take care.

User But the idea that a child should be the bigger person than their parent is asinine. What about the saying that wisdom comes with age? Parents are always decades older than their child and also had the responsibility of raising said child, so expecting the child to be the bigger person is illogical and unreasonable.

But once a child is an adult they CAN choose to behave in a more "mature" way than their parent. That is if one thinks of "being the bigger person" as
choosing maturity, restraint, and grace instead of reacting with petty retaliation, anger, or revenge when someone treats you poorly.

I would argue that our dear OP is already the bigger person by avoiding conflict and owning up to their transgressions. I don't think being the bigger person in any way means allowing any kind of bad treatment.

I am also confused by the idea that anyone should be the bigger person in a relationship, it should be equal. I would even agree that it is difficult to put that expectation on a child in the relationship when they may not have been given those tools growing up and are having to find their way themselves.

As I said our dear OP does appear to be the bigger person and it would not be fair to ask more of them. Sometimes we evolve past others and it is necessary to protect that to avoid being dragged backwards again.

Someone close to me said that they will not continue a relationship with someone who doesn't love them enough to change what is hurting them. That is very profound isn't it? A very small thing to ask of a parent not to hurt you.

Yes of course once a child becomes an adult, they CAN choose to behave in a more "mature" way than their parent Madgran.

A very small thing to ask of anyone who claims to love you InRainbows.

Rainbows I would argue that our dear OP is already the bigger person by avoiding conflict and owning up to their transgressions. I don't think being the bigger person in any way means allowing any kind of bad treatment

I agree; I hope my comment did not give the impression that the OP should be "allowing any kind of bad behaviour"

My comment was purely in response to Users who appeared to be suggesting that an AC being the bigger person was "asinine". Any adult can choose to be the bigger person on the basis of the definition I gave, whether to their parent or anyone else and age and experience is not relevant.