Weed killer

“I’m” not extreme, the quality of conventional food is excellent and regulated very closely buy the governments and retailers. As long as the consumer eats a moderate quantity of a varied diet the will live a long and healthy life.

The average lifespan of the population is increasing, we are not dying because our food kills us.

David - I didn't mean the nutritional value of crops in bio fields. It was more the reduced quantity.
Could be both though.

David This discussion will go nowhere we are coming from such extreme differences. Also I am off on holiday at 5.00pm tomorrow morning and just do not have the time to do the proper research to refute your statements, for which I have seen more than enough evidence to be confident they are inaccurate.

Monica.
The nutritional value of food was brought into the thread by Fennel not myself.
It is obvious that organic crops have more ecological diversity, they are less intensive and produce lower yields of poorer quality crops that need to be sold at a higher price to be economic.
Industrial production of fertilizers and other chemicals do indeed contribute to global emissions but without them food production will fall by 2/3 at least.

Fennel, I must be close to you (Stockton in Tees) but am battling heavy clay! I'm just starting to get into my gardening again (a novice) after illness so might have some questions for you all as I take my baby steps!

David The discussion on this thread is the contribution organic methods make to protecting the quality of the soil and the wider eco environronment, not the nutritional value of the food grown

On a day when the importance of soils and their contribution to carbon capture and storage is making headlines, organic farming methods are without a doubt much more compatible with concerns about the loss of biodiversity and global warming than industrial methods.

Annie - good luck!
Glad to see that you're interested in your garden again.
We've been away the last 2 weeks and our tiny back garden is now beyond recognition. I can hardly believe how good the soil is in our little corner of the industrial NE.
This is our first spring here since we moved last year.

Yes, the overuse of anything is bad and wasteful, but compaction causing poor soil structure is more important. Soil only carries fertility, it can be exhausted easily, virgin soil might sustain cropping for 3 years only. Crop nutrients wether organic or chemical need to be added for each crop, a lot for a crop like potatoes much less for wheat or other cereals.
Many crops are grown hydroponically without soil, Tomatoes and Strawberries notably, also others, the plants don’t care which as long as it is all balanced.
Salt, there are a few crops that might benefit on soils that are deficient but it’s not often used.

David - I took M0nica's main point to be that overuse of herb/pesticides destroys the quality of the soil over time.
It's the soil which provides the main plant nutrients, and once destroyed, it's very slow/difficult to restore.
As I mentioned in the use of salt.
But this relates more to agriculture than small gardens.

When I was ten years younger I did dig up weeds and I would need a stair carpet to stretch down the centre path to cover weeds there ?

Monica
Sorry, but there has been plenty of research that compares nutrition of Organic food compared with Conventional food and there is no difference. Scientifically the fact is that all plants absorb nutrients in the same way and organic fertlity is converted by soil bacteria in the same way as chemical fertilizer and it is easy to use too much organic fertilizer.
Nevertheless if you feel better buying organic that’s OK but please don’t demonize 90% plus of conventional food.

As a ps to this subject, if I was 20 years younger I would say, dig up the weeds manually. I don't like any of the short cuts.
Except there's one that hasn't been mentioned - if it's a patch of weeds, cover it in early spring, before the seeds develop, with old carpeting, or cardboard sheets or thick black plastic.
Deprivation of water and light will kill them.

Have found a gardener, am buying a flame thrower which my new best friend the gardener will use on the many weeds . Thank you x

Fennel Organic transition is often a dificult time and the crop may be very weedy, but on a well run organic farm, weeds are not such a problem. Yes, crops can be lower than commercial crops, especially the large field pesticide and herbicide using systems but organic systems nurture the soil so that the soil quality is far better, but the nutritional value of the food is often higher and the soil improves with cultivation, unlike agro industry where crops are grown cheaply but at the cost of soil compaction and soil exhaustion leading to food that is cheap but not nutricious and invariably of a poorer quality.

One of ourie community volunteer organic gardeners works mainly in private gardens where mowing and pruning are his usual jobs. I asked how to deal with a tree root too difficult to dig out. He suggested piling manure onto it to speed the rotting process before enclosing it in a cover to keep out light and air. He said it could take a few years but it will work.
Its true it's harder work, well more labour intensive. Last year we hand picked thousands of sawfly caterpillars off the gooseberry bushes.

Years ago, farmers (who were not then organic by choice) would have employed an army of local women and children, paid at subsistence rates, to hoe the crops to keep the weeds at bay. Weedkiller (and greater exposure to carcinogens) is the price we pay for cheap and plentiful food.

But, of course, we don't need it so intensively in our own gardens.

This is an interesting subject. The farmer next to us went 'bio' - I think they get grants. The first few years he planted various crops, and they fought with the weeds for survival.
The value of the produce in that field must have been greatly reduced. So that's why organic produce is more expensive.
Gramaretto - the attack on the cabbages - fighting that would involve pesticides, which seem to be even more harmful than herbicides. Longterm use linked to cancers in humans.

Maizie you do not have to. I only use the weed wand on hard surfaces, where insects are visible.If I see an insect near a weed, I either go round it and come back to that weed when it has moved away, or I approach it slowly and it scuttles away when it feels warmth and I can then burn the weed.

I do not use the weed wand for weeding the vegetable patch, flower beds or shrubbery. The good traditional hoe does for that.

Using a weed killer is not incompatible with a rich wildlife. When the weeds are killed, whether by weed wand or hoe, in their place grow a whole host of other chosen plants, many of which attract insects of all kinds and are planted for that reason. A well maintained garden, planted with insects, birds and other wildlife in mind can provide a richer habitat than an unmaintained weed grown one.

Oh dear. Why do you use weedkiller?
We had a visiter to our community garden yesterday who had binoculars and was pointing out to me the array of butterflies he could see. A moment later he stopped talking to listen to the birdsong. He could hear nuthatch and black caps and the robin,
In almost the next moment he said it was a shame the garden looked overgrown and that the cabbages last year had been attacked by something - but then he added "but you people don't believe in weedkillers do you".
He really couldn't see the connection!

I use a mixture of the following to kill weeds:
4 cups white vinegar
2 cups Epsom salt
1/4 cup dish soap
Mix well and pour into a sprayer.
It seems to work well, especially if you spray the roots as well as the leaves.

I tried a flame thrower but I couldn't bear shrivelling the poor ants, spiders and other garden insects.

We have quite a lot of paving in one way or another which drives me crazy trying to keep it clear of weeds. It sounds as though it's well worth giving a strong salt solution a try. Thanks to those who suggested it.

PS bought an electric weed scrubber thing from Aldi last year to use on my patio. It takes the tops off too but not roots, and is much quicker to use.

I have the flame thrower thingy, & find it burns the the tops off but they grow back as the roots aren’t burnt. Does your back in, bending down with it, too!

Have you tried a strong solution of salt water? Gets rid of weeds asap.

If you use it as a spray, be careful it doesn't drift onto the foliage of other plants, it's brown them
Spot dressing is best.

I would really try the boiling water before weedkillers , I ended up with a horrible jelly like slime on the concrete from weedkiller