Worried about the way my granddaughter's childminder disciplines her

I would hate to think of my four year old grandaughter being shut outside without a coat (even being shut outside with a coat). At 32 months she is still a baby. It is certainly something I would address with the childminder ASAP.

My daughter's childminder collaborates with her about time out and disciplinary issues, and will not/is not permitted to use any strategies that both do not agree on. I would be horrified if she did this to one of my grandchildren. She should have advice about what is and isn't appropriate time out, and this would never come up as being ok. Could your daughter tell the childminder what she would like her to do, and if that has been a one-off, fair enough. Otherwise, your daughter may need to remove the child and also complain about what has happened so this woman can be retrained.

I was a childminder for 20 years and would never have disciplined one of my mindees in this way. I didn't even have a naughty step.

I think phoenixbfh's daughter needs to talk to the childminder about what she thinks is acceptable and see if something can be worked out amicably.

If the childminder is otherwise good and the little girl is happy in her care I would not report the childminder except as a last resort. She is very likely to lose her livelihood as a result.

If you're not comfortable with it, then it is something that needs to be discussed with the child minder. No shoes nor coat when outside is not good practice and I'd definitely be having 'a word or two'

I'd be horrified if someone put my child outside for whatever reason.

THink I would be tending..to stand the Childminder outside in the cold!! no shoes/ coat etc

I ran pre-schools until about 12 years ago....'naughty steps' were not allowed then and I had never used them or seen them used in any establishmnets I had anything to do with going back 20 odd years. Also I was trained not to think of behaviour as 'naughty' (needless to say my own children were) but in my work behaviour that challenged usually had a reason and could be traced to an event or interaction with another child. Thus if two children ended up having a scrap over a toy we would try not to see one as being in the right and both children were told to stop and then given a chance to calm down with a separate member of staff 'Weeing' is hardly a matter for punishment, accidents happen and being told that a child had done it 'on demand' sounds like an adult trying to justify their position. If and when any child had a wetting 'incident' (thats what we called them) , we would simply acknowledge what the child had done in a non-challenging way (perhaps saying it was a shame their clothing had got wet etc and then, with the minimum of fuss, change them. It was up to us to keep an eye on any newly 'trained' child to remind them at intervals appropriate to their 'capacity' and always before and after drink or snack times. Part of any child care professionals job skills is to be able to communicate with parents and overly defensive behaviour on their part could be a worry. Perhaps you need to encourage your daughter to cast around for alternative arrangements should your worries continue.Once your GD is 3 she should be entitled to the child vouchers I believe (I'm a bit out of the loop nowadays) and a nursery or other child care provision might be more suitable.

At 3 years children are entitled to 15 hours a week free pre-school provision - some child minders have qualified to provide this, so no need for the child to move on from child care provision that is working well. The child minder referred to here does seem to be out of step with current understanding about how children learn, and as HildaW explains, such overly defensive behaviour to justify her mistreatment is a worry.

If it were my child she would never return there - no question. Get the poor child out of there!!!
When it is a grandchild, it is very difficult - your child is the one calling the shots and it is down to her to decide what she does about her own child - but in this situation, no way would I be able to bite my tongue.
This is the basic problem with childcare outside the home. In the end you never know quite what is going on. I would not have wanted someone else bringing my children up and passing on their values and styles of "parenting."
Some of my grandchildren have alternative carers some of the time while parents work or recharge batteries and there are lots of things that I do not like about it, but cannot say: e.g. childmnder driving GS about in "f* me" shoes with stiletto heels - not safe for driving I feel; nanny who encourages watching what I (and my D) consider to be unsuitable TV programmes; nanny who is poorly educated and cannot provide suitable stimulation or discipline (these bright nippers run rings round her!).
How sad that parents can no longer afford for one paernt to be at home with the children until they reach school age.

I thought I would add this. Recently, my daughter's friend was in a relationship with a man who, on the surface, seemed appropriate. He had educational qualifications to teach at college, had led training courses on child protection and was friendly towards her 7 year old daughter and my daughter's 3 year old boys. I got funny vibes from him, which when I examined them, manifested in him not respecting boundaries. I decided to tell my daughter, as I could not live with myself if I hadn't and something bad happened. Nothing awful did happen, but he didn't respect requests not to call round at bathtime, bedtime, getting changed for bed etc. These things mounted up and the friend eventually gave him the heave-ho, as the signals he was giving off concerned both her and my daughter. When you see signs that something is not quite right, don't ignore them - something is not fitting correctly and child minders who have confrontations with children over minor things like wetting their pants are not getting it quite right. This could indicate a need for further training, or a pattern of concerning behaviour. Whatever it is, your grandchild doesn't need this while she is so young.

I'm affraid I am with mishap on this one in getting the baby (and that is what she is ) out of that enviroment,I would not allow my DD to take her back and would look after her myself first,this little could be frightened by the timeout procedure this childminder is using so no wonder she has had mishap.Arrange alternative childminder I would asap.

Morning Everyone!
Thank you for your feedback and support overnight.
This is a very complex scenario and not as simple as just taking my GD out of the environment.
I was a stay at home mum andso childcare outside of the home hasn't been easy for me to deal with. However, my daughter is a young parent - she is single and lives with us with my GD. My daughter is now studying hard at college 3 days a week and has a work placement 2 days a week so the routine is planned to the nth degree. I am part of "The Sandwich Generation" - sandwiched between children/grandchildren and ageing, frail parents. I am only just about to be 50 so I'm youngish to be a grandma and, of course, I'm not retired yet. Instead I stretch myself between PT work, helping to care for my recently widowed mother (in her 80s) and looking after husband, house and , not least my last child at home (my daughter) and my GD. So it isn't as simple as just taking her out of what has been a very happy, wholesome, stimulating childcare setting. My GD skips there every day, has an amazing vocabulary for an under 3, comes home with lovely art and craft, gets taken out on little trips etc etc. She really does seem happy. The childminder also has an "assistant" who has 2 children of her own and is simply lovely but as she isn't the "registered setting" I feel my daughter needs to speak directly with the childminder.

Anyway, my daughter (who is still young and bearing a lot of rsponsibility) has stewed all night. She is a very confident young lady and will always speak up and stand her ground when she needs to (in a polite way, of course). However, this morning she seemed tense and agitated at the prospect of chatting with the childminder. I think for fear of being told to find another one! She sent me a text after she had dropped my GD and said that she hadn't said anything as another mum arrived to drop off at the same time and my daughter felt she was in the middle of their chatty, laughing conversation. I have told her to have a chat withe her tutor at college to let her know what stress she is under with all of this - she is studying for a BTEC in Children's care, learning and development so her tutor should be sympathetic!

It's such a shame that the assistant doesn't set up on her own because she really is lovely and has great people skills which the childminder seems to lack with adults or maybe just with my daughter?!

Sorry that I'm spilling all this out to you all but I'm at work now and feel so concerned by it all but I'm just not in a position to say, "Right, that's it, I'll have her at home!"

The assistant very kindly drops my GD off to us at home on a Monday evening and I'm really tempted to do what I dont do and that's interfere and sound her out about it all. I don't want to encourage her to be disloyal but we need to resolve this. What do you all think?
Thanks again - back to work now! xx

The point that comes to mind here is that the childminder is employed by the parent and if the methods used to do not concur with the parents wishes and cannot be remedied during a conversation then the parent may wish to terminate this employment. I know changing children about in their care arrangements is difficult for all but again here ' dont let the tail wag the dog'. Putting children outside in the cold and changing the nappy in the cold is unacceptable whatever book or regime you care to follow. What year are we in 1920?

I'm not conversant with the Care Standards laid down for childminding, but would think that National Care Standards would play a large part in this, nevertheless. (I live in Scotland). I am however, conversant with what may be termed as abuse, and that's what I think may be happening here. I would follow my instincts and take the little one away from the situation. She may be happily skipping along because she knows she's going to be having fun playing with other children, etc. Maybe a chat with the Care Commission may help? If your daughter or yourself feel that there may be a negative response from the childminder, then the little one's better away from there anyway.

phoenixbfh your update raises a lot of questions. It must be so difficult for you and your daughter, when there's a risk of losing a child care place while your daughter is at college. The questions that occur to me are:
a) has this assistant had Safeguarding Children training? She will have an enhanced CRB check, and to work in this environment she should be expected to take some appropriate courses
b) I was surprised to learn that an assistant is on the premises, but the chilkdminder still feels able to put a child out in the garden with no shoes on, for a punishment that she calls 'time out.' Therefore, has this assistant challenged her behaviour?
c) anyone who learns about Safeguarding Children/Child Protection should also know about whistleblowing on inappropriate or risky behaviour. Not to blow this incident up out of proportion, but does this assistant feel at all uneasy about what has happened?
d) if the assistant doesn't know what has occurred, why doesn't she? If the childminder sees no problem with it, is it a case of ignorance that needs correcting. If it's been hidden from the assistant, she knows she shouldn't have done it, and has perhaps tried to rationalise what she did in her explanation to your daughter, as your grandchild may have complained to either of you about what happened.
Fortunately, as your daughter is doing a BTEC in Childcare, she has a platform from which to assert some authority, and will have access to good advice about this incident from her tutor. Is there a creche at the college that she can use? Also, social services, if they were aware of a concern about childcare practice at this particular childminder's, may be able to assist in obtaining a more appropriate place for your grandaughter.
I would definitely check things out with the assistant. Your daughter is agonising over this and you have posted more information. Your gut feelings are helping you resolve this issue and I would keep listening to them until you feel comfortable about the outcome. Best wishes x

PS: if you find from your further research into what has happened that there is a reason to be concerned, social services must certainly be informed, as there are other children at this place who may also be treated like this. If the parents don't have full information they would be very distressed to find out that you knew something that they should also have been told, as I'm sure you and your daughter would be if you learned that other children at this place had been mistreated. Keep us updated, won't you?

phoenix, I don't think there would be anything wrong with your talking to the assistant when she drops your GC off tonight. You never know, you might even get a totally different picture of what happened and why. Worth a try anyway.

How long the child was outside has not been mentioned. I think it might be significant. Also, I don't agree that just being outside without shoes is necessarily damaging. It's not freezing cold yet anywhere in the UK except perhaps at the tops of mountains. Two minutes feeling "a bit chilly" is not going to harm a child.

Having said that, it does seem an odd thing to do!!

Sorry to be pedantic, but I've just read your first post again and realised that this has happened twice to your knowledge, and that your grandaughter 'wee'd on demand to make a point' according to the childminder. I now wonder whether she lost control of her bladder because she was upset or frightened by the childminder? What was the point the childminder felt your grandaughter was making? Sounds as though something happened prior to this confrontation, so did the assistant see it. Will the childminder elaborate on her explanation? The more I look at this, the more concerned I become. Before retirement, I participated in many child protection case conferences and there are a lot of issues coming out of this thread for me. Please leave no stone unturned. You may be nipping something in the bud here, or you could be uncovering a series of incidents that are at the least unprofessional or, more seriously, good reason to have this childminder thoroughly investigated.

If your D is studying a child care course, she must know how unacceptable this bahaviour is and will have access to the right procedures - I know that confrontation is always hard, but there are ways of doing this; "I hear that X has happened on X number of occasions and I do not feel that this is right for my child - we need to discuss this."
Personally I would be going up a notch and talking to SSD as I think this is so unacceptable, but D could at least start with a conversation. Just saying "Could we please make a time to have a chat" might in itself flag up to the childminder that there is a concern and make her think a bit.
Not a situation to be ignored I think. Children truly are so powerless in these situations - they do not know what the parameters are, what is reasobnable and what is not. It is up to the adults around them to defend them.
On a slightly different aspect of protecting children, we had an incident many years ago when my D (then about 8) was invited for a sleepover (which was becoming all the rage then) and she came back and said that she did not want to go there again - she gave no specific reason, but clearly felt that something was not right. I had always found the parents slightly odd, but nothing that you could put your finger on and nothing to set alarm bells ringing - they were just not particularly friends of ours. I do not think that any thing seriously traumatic happened - there is no evidence to suggest this - but there was something in the atmosphere that upset her.
The whole sleepover thing is a challenge - very often you do not know the parents well.

At a conference on child protection years ago, I heard a fabulous quote from an American child protection specialist called Anna C Salter. 'One day you will do something relatively small that protects a child, and may never be aware that in doing so, you have saved the childhoods of many children.'

Was also thinking that when childminder said that your granddaughter had 'wee'd on demand', she was actually making a judgement. How did she know this? It could have been because she was frightened or it could have been because she was cold. If childminder has decided that the little girl did it because she was being naughty, then perhaps she (childminder) needs to look at what led up to it, and why.

Which ever way you look at it there is no excuse for puuting a small child outdoors without shoes and coat, it is child abuse
My GC do not go to play in the garden unless there is a responsible adult with them at all times. I would have no qualms about confronting this woman.

Can I really be the only parent whose kids sometimes disobeyed my instruction to put shoes and coats on before they went outside? They got their socks filthy and they often got wet but they came to no harm. OK, I didn't "put" them outside with no shoes or coat, but sometimes I didn't bother to call them in again once they'd gone without. I suppose I thought they might as well learn the hard way — if there was anything to learn.

I think phoenix is perfectly right to want to investigate what is troubling her and her daughter about the childminder's treatment and I hope to goodness there is no abuse, but without knowing all the details, I think it's a bit strong to call it abuse at the moment.

phoenix, please let us know how you get on with this problem. I hope it will turn out to be less bad than you feared and can be resolved. I also find the story as we know it so far to be odd and troubling. I would certainly investigate further if I were in your shoes.

That's all very well, Bags, but if other people's children were in your charge would you have allowed them to stay outside without their shoes on?