Unattended Grandsons

Do you get those programs on your tv where a nanny steps in and stays with a family for a few days and turns their relationship with the children around?
If you can find a few episodes that are similat to your DD's situation, would she and SIL watch them?

BTW foster and adoptive parents aren't perfect either

My GS used to stay in his room and play alone until the foster carer got up and if she needed a lie in who knows how long he would be 'unsupervised' for

Not saying they would be as unsupervised in care or if adopted but I feel you need to give the family a chance , sounds like they have some unresolved issues hence needing a break so often and not FULLY coping , sounds like it is not just an innocent nodding off on the settee after a tiring week of looking after 4 children , sounds like there is more interaction as a family as a whole which needs to go on as it must be chaos for the kids but 'normal' to them now

Not to negate what is happening but there are parents who go out and leave children fully alone and you can't supervise them every minute of the day ie be in the same room , but like I said I think this has to do with not enough interaction as a family

Maybe all go out and do fun stuff together and they may start enjoying that bonding time plus seeing that children are actually better behaved the more notice you take of them and interact with them and give them attention and you can all chill out in the house and do seperate things sometimes but everyone is still happy and secure with the level of bonding between them!

I think this is a tough one , there are serious things which warrant neglect and this may be seen as borderline rather than actual neglect

I rang the NSPCC once as my neighbour used to leave her children alone and go out! ... They did nothing and said there was no 'official' age that children could be left alone and as they weren't young as such ( around 8-10 years old ) there was nothing they could do

Serious neglect cases are looked at and yes unfortunately there is enough of that around to keep child protection services on their toes and overloaded with cases , this would be seen as bad parenting choices etc but also a child can fall while you are in the kitchen cooking dinner and they are in another room

I don't want to feel scared of nodding off on the settee one day if tired while my GS is in my care , that would make me nervous and on edge if I thought someone would report me if I ever nodded off to sleep and I can't say I never had a nap when my children were young eg around 7 years old as have nodded off from exhaustion before while they played!

If I felt I would be reported for that I would feel guilty and fearful combined!!! x

You would think with 2 of them there they would work as a team ie one supervise the children while the other slept , rested or had a break and take it in turns , let alone interact with the children together and play and have fun with them and ENJOY being a family , sounds like they are finding things hard but don't want to admit it , it is risky though re the cooker etc and there need to be safeguards eg locks etc fully in place ( at least! lol )

Am not sure if CPS are ever going to take it seriously tbh but it is natural you have a deep fear after what has happened before

I do hope things improve for you and your family , sounds like the couple need to heal and mend properly so they can fully enjoy their family / children together and I hope your heart truly mends too xx

Oh, sorry, didn't see your latest post! Please ignore the above!

So shocked at the authorities' casual attitude to what was going on with OGS! And so deeply, deeply sorry...

About the other kids - You must be besides yourself! I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes! Hopefully, the websites Ginny gave you will help.

It's clear DD feels overwhelmed by the childcare (on top of her fulltime job) and perhaps SIL does, as well. I know, I know, other parents are in the same boat and they chose to have several kids, etc. But apparently they are having trouble handling it all (sigh).

I'm glad you recognize that the fact that DD blocked you on FB suggests "she needs some time to cool off." I trust you realize that means you shouldn't call her or anything, till she calls you. I know you'll be worried about the kids, but you are, anyway, and trying to contact her won't change anything. Chances are, she'll be contacting you again soon for babysitting, if not this weekend (maybe she already has?), then next.

Once things are back to "normal," for a while, is it possible to offer to come over and watch the kids for a few hours each day, while she and SIL sleep/unwind after work? I know that sounds crazy on top of having them for whole weekends, but perhaps you and the other GPs could take turns doing this? Or offer to all chip in and pay for a nanny/sitter to watch them? These offers would have to be made in a supportive way ("You two have so much on your plate and we want to help..."). And I know the parents may well decline. But it may be worth a shot.

Since you just had a blowup with DD, I don't think you should be the one to present this idea to her if all the GPs agree to it. IMO, one of the others should float the suggestion, either to her or SIL or both. I know this isn't how it should be - they should be there more for their kids and so forth. But they're not, so I'm trying to figure out what might help.

But first, forgive me, I feel compelled to ask, do you know for sure that DD and SIL leave the kids on their own while they relax upstairs? Or that the toddlers sometimes turn on the stove? And so forth? Are you certain you're not getting a distorted version of what goes on now from the kids or whoever? After the tragic loss of OGS, I don't blame you and the other GPs for believing the worst, but before you do anything, IMO, you need to be clear in your mind that the situation is as bad as you've been led to think.

(((Hugs!)))

Thinking about what I posted before it occurred to me that if I felt my DGCs really were in danger seeing them taken into care and losing touch with them would be a real expression of love and care, putting their welfare before your own feelings. I wish you all the best slimgramma there isn't an easy way all the options mean pain and stress for you. Stay strong, these children need you.

No doubt, Trish is right and that before bringing in the authorities, you and DH would have to think about whether or not you would be willing to take in the kids fulltime, even if only temporarily. Or perhaps the other GPs would? You might want to discuss this with them first.

If none of you are willing to take them on fulltime, then I think Trish makes another good point - you have no control over where the authorities will place them or how often you'll get to see them, etc. No doubt, you need to think this over carefully.

But we're not just talking about kids who spend a lot of time on their own. We're talking about toddlers who are getting out of the house, by themselves, and turning on the stove, etc! OP, I don't mean to raise your anxiety further, but, IMO, you have reason to be anxious! At some point you may have to go to social services or whatever, no matter what the emotional cost.

If I were you, I would try that intervention first, if possible, even if the parents do deny, deny, deny. At least, you'll know you tried before you go to the authorities. Or better yet. check out those websites first - then decide what you feel is best.

Absolutely agree that you should report it. Not sure what the system is in the US, but what about the children's schools? They should have a Child Protection officer similar to in the UK. They may have contacts which you don't have access too.

Actually slimgramma I think you will find that the last thing you want is to lose another grandchild?

Where to begin..trisher, Actually the last thing I want to do is report her for the reasons you've posted. That will be my last choice. We spent over a year with CPS, police, etc and they did nothing. My grandson fell off of a 3 story balcony. He was actually recovering! We begged the services to let us take him until he healed. He had a brain bleed. They sent him home with her, telling her to get a helmet made. That never happened. Then he supposedly fell back off a coffee table. Which triggered the bleed. This was two weeks later.

Star bird... To make a long story short..my DD works full time if she doesn't call in "sick". My SIL works 3 days a week. The DGS's are with us or friends or my ex 3 weekends out of four. Two here two there type thing. They get babysitters frequently. Some weeks I can honestly say my DD is with all four of her children a total of 12-14hrs a week and two out of four weekends she only has two of them. Sorry, it doesn't take much to steam me up these days.?

I did actually try to talk to her yesterday. It started out calm but with tears but unfortunately it turned into anger and denial. Many times I have suggested therapy but that doesn't seem to interest her. It's a lifestyle she has chosen. They have chosen. I've babbled on I know. I left it with telling her that we don't care what she and SIL do. But that we worry about the kids. I can't type her reply but I have been blocked from her Facebook page so I'm thinking she needs time to cool off.

slimgramma I tried to post earlier today but GN went offline.

This is a UK Forum! We had a post like this from a USA resident possibly a couple of years ago I found it strange that it has been posted on a UK forum.

You really need to make contact with services in the USA. We can do nothing from the UK.

This is the site you need to report to.
www.childwelfare.gov/topics/responding/reporting/

Hi SlimGramma,
What an awful situation you find yourself in. And how awful for the children, too.
The question here is how to resolve all these problems, and the answer is it will not be easy. First of all there's the question of how much genuinely bad stuff is going on, and how much SIL is deliberately winding you up. SILs can be strange fish at the best of times, and this is not the best of times. We have no idea what motivates him in all this. Hopefully he is trying to support DD (however much you may disagree with his efforts) as well as trying to get over his own grief. Four children will never make up for the loss of the first.
The one thing we can be certain of here is that you are very worried. This may well make you hypersensitive, which may make you "sound paranoid" when you speak to any of the people you've so far tried to get help from. Please don't misunderstand me; I know you've been through Hell. But your priority here must be to find a way of achieving the near-impossible.
My suggestion is that you start with offloading as much as you possibly can; on this site or anywhere else; so that you can speak more calmly about everything. Then you might be in a better position to assess which things that DD and SIL are doing are the most awful: the priorities for you to deal with. There's heaps of good advice here from people; sift through it and see what you can use.
This problem is not going to be dealt with overnight. I wish you strength in trying to sort out where to begin and how best to achieve the safer situation you're aiming for.

Here are a few random thoughts which you don't need to answer here: I am wondering if your SIL is at work? Do you think your DD is suffering from depression and has turned to playing games as an escape because she can't cope? Does she go to a parent and toddler group with the twins? Do you have family counsellors in the USA - could you afford to arrange for that? Did she go to work before having children? I wonder if it would be better for her to go to work and to arrange childminding? Have they taken steps to prevent further pregnancies? I can imagine that trips to the park, shopping etc must be a nightmare. Did your DD have counselling after the first child died? Does she get out of the house at all? eg keep fit, or date nights?
I am sure the websites provided by Ginny42 will be helpful. At least you and the other grandparents are united in your recognition of the problem and desire to help. I think you are very brave to take this step and hope it will all work out in time.

slim please think very hard before you report your DD to anyone. Firstly if the children are otherwise well cared for-fed, clothed, loved with reasonable learning for the eldest you are unlikely to get any action from a child protection agency who may well view this as a life-style choice. Secondly what will happen if you do report them? Are you able to take on the children? If not you might be looking at seeing the children split up and removed from your circle. It must be so hard having lost a grandchild. I don't know how the US works but I have known people here whose grandchildren were taken into care and who lost all contact when they were adopted. Can you offer more help? Or perhaps talk to your DD alone? She must still be suffering from the loss and is perhaps not looking after the others properly because of this?

I have been thinking about you overnight and what I failed to add to my post yesterday is that if you have serious concerns about the safety of these little boys you need to talk to the relevant authorities. As Ginny42 suggest a quick internet search would point you in the right direction.

Can you have a serious talk with the parents with your ex and his wife also present and impression them that's it's not at all amusing but immature, irresponsible and dangerous? Is there any parenting counselling someone could persuade them to go to?
So sorry about your first grandchild, a very sad thing to happen in any family.

Thank you for the many responses and ideas! I think I have caused an ulcer to flare up worrying about this. I will definitely check out the websites Ginny42.. This really is a very short version of what is going on. And yes I am a very anxious grandparent. I'm not sure yet what to do. I'm thinking of the intervention but it's s bit hard when my DD and SIL will deny. Anyway, thank you so much and I will keep you posted!

I had a similar situation, although to have already experienced the death of a child we might expect that they would be extra cautious. My DD and SiL were in the habit of going for a siesta and leaving my grandson aged 6 alone downstairs. 'We've locked the door, and he knows to come to us if there's a problem.'

I was very verbal in my disapproval and said there was no way I was leaving him. Yes, they work from early morning and it's incredibly hot in the afternoons, often 45C. My daughter often works from 3.00 a.m. before the heat of the day. My grandson has never slept in the afternoons. I refused to go for siesta, which is fine when I'm there, but I do worry about when I'm not. I think my daughter got the message. She now says although he's not tired he must go to his room with Lego/book/tablet with programmes to watch.

Can they afford to pay for someone to take care of them for an hour or so in the afternoons? Sleeping is one thing, but playing video games seems irresponsible. It seems as though they're not really aware of their responsibilities of care for their children. They want to have the life of young couple without children.

A very quick online search brought up...

www.childwelfare.gov/topics/responding/reporting/ Here you will find contacts for each State.

www.loveourchildrenusa.org/reportingchildabuse.php

www.americanhumane.org/children/programs/child-abuse-neglect-prevention/

You may find some coping strategies on the sites and may be able to call for advice.

I wish you a happy solution to this very worrying and sensitive situation.

When you speak to the authorities do you tell them that one child in the family has already died because of the parents failure to supervise properly? It is difficult to make specific suggestions on where to look for help or expect it as I do not know the US system, but I think in the UK such a family would be on an 'at risk' register.

The advice of NanaandGrampy is very good. I would only add it sometimes helps to talk as if you understand the pressures they are under, 4 children under 8, is demanding, ask them how they are feeling and how you could help. Try and think of some positive aspects of their parenting, believable, even if fictitious and mix your concerns with praise of things they do that are good. You will get better results if you build them up rather than knock them down, however kindly.

I fully understand how difficult it is to talk kindly and supportively in a situation like this when the the parents seem to be, at best, irresponsible, at worst neglectful. But in very different circumstances I have managed it so it is possible and it was a more productive conversation than if I had just gone in and explained to someone (nicely) all the problems they were causing

Yes, I meant to say, too, so sorry for the loss of your oldest GC. You and yours have my deepest sympathies...

Quite right - don,t judge. This may be a case of over anxious grandparents and very relaxed parenting styles. We do not know the parents perspective on this.

Four boys under seven is my idea of a nightmare, I find looking after one hyperactive 16 month old grandson exhausting and yes young children do manage to outwit parents often, luckily they generally do not come to any harm.

So sorry about your first grandchild slimgran it must have been devastating for your family .

Thank you so so much everyone.. I'm at work or I could respond more! It's nice that I am able to talk about this. A lot of my family have not talked to DD since we lost our grandson. People are afraid to hear it! The intervention sounds good. At least then we know we tried! Before I turn them in. And yes, it is all true. Also my DD was addicted to pain meds back when it first happened.

Don't judge. The mother might have been exhausted. We can't know the whole story here.

Are there no US forums you could find advice slimgramma? Things are probably handled differently in the States.

Frankly, I find it unbelievable that parents who have already lost one child through neglect can act in this way.

You must be so worried , my heart goes out to you.

This is a time for tough love in my opinion. If you do nothing and something terrible happens I am sure you would feel unbearable guilt, so despite the fact that you don't feel the authorities have been helpful in the past I think you will have to alert them at some stage.

You might not like the idea of staging an intervention with your S and DiL but I think its inevitable. If all the grandparents feel the same then if you can get someone to have the children other than yourselves, maybe you can sit down with the parents and explain your concerns.

There's no need to be mean or rude, try and be as calm as possible, state your concerns, give examples if you can. Then maybe ask what you can do to help?

Make them think about the situation ( and the answer isn't to fob the GC off to the grandparents so they can relax more. Its about understanding what parenting is and means.

IF all your advice falls on deaf ears then the authorities are the way to go.

Maybe your S and DiL need parenting classes, contrary to popular belief I don't think parenting comes naturally to all ,especially the 'me me me' generation .

I hope you find a way forward that works for you all but especially the GC x

If the children can run riot in the way you say, surely the whole family could be at risk if somehow they managed to set the place on fire. I can also imagine the damage that could be caused if they left water running because that is what two of my grandsons did when their parents thought they were playing peacefully upstairs. Then the hall ceiling came down...