Secondary School places allocated today [sad]

I specialised in various aspects of educational law before I retired. Can I ask

Is your appeal based on the impracticality of the journey?Or are you also citing other reasons for appeal?

Are any of the closer schools academies or church schools?

Do you have any proof or reason to suspect that the admissions criteria for the closer schools have not been applied?

Were you offered any LEA primary school when you went to appeal last year? If so was it your choice to keep the children at their original school?

Obviously you are all very upset but it is important to steer away from emotive comments when making an appeal.

gillybob what a terrible situation! These letters are often generated automatically which makes them sound rather insensitive but it is true lateness is not good for you DGC or anyone else. However the response from the LA officer is an obvious case of poor communication, jobsworth and unsuitability for a particular job and insensitive to boot!

The actual EW /Attendance officer may be more understanding than the admin people.

Ask for an appointment to meet him/her because the family is very concerned
a) about the impact of lateness on children's education and
b) the impact on children's health and well being if they have to leave for school even earlier for their long journey to get to school on time.
In addition:
Does the dedicated 'school bus' have a set departure time? It might be possible to find out the days that the regular bus has arrived after school bus departure time.. might be an idea if bus companies record times etc. You may want to ask the EWO to find someone at the bus company who could provide this evidence. The Education Welfare Officers will know that buses are dependent on traffic. If the local bus does not run frequently (every 10 mins) at 'rush hour' it is thoughtless to ask young childrne to leave home say half an hour earlier just to accommodate traffic. I would think it is within then EWO remit to actually be at the school bus stop on several mornings to monitor arrival/departure of buses. Good luck

There is no dedicated school bus Penstemmon as there are no other children traveling to this school,from where they live. They use 2 service buses. The first one is a rural (once an hour) service and takes in a city centre and several small villages before they get on. It is often late. Then they have to wait for a connection (they normally miss the best one) and have a fairly decent walk to school,after they get off the second bus. I asked the attendance officer for her advice, I asked what we could do, I tried to explain what it was like for the children but I could almost hear her singing "la, la, la, la " with her fingers in her ears as she said it was not up to her to offer solutions it was up to her to enforce children arriving at school on time.

We were not offered any alternative/closer school at appeal Jayanna9040 just merely told we could not get into one of the 4 primaries close by. (Tbh one of them is not close at all and would still necessitate a bus journey and a long walk). Infact I questioned the LEA after the lost appeals and was told that there were no places at any schools closer to home and that the children should stay where they are. No help. No advice. No understanding.

I have no evidence to suggest the admission criteria has not been applied but I would love to question the criteria itself which looks like a back door selection process to me. As it stands a child without a sibling link or who does not get into one of the 4 feeders at 4 yrs old has NO CHANCE whatsoever of getting into the secondary school 7 years later. All of the children from one of the "feeders" are bused across despite the fact that they have a perfectly adequate secondary school opposite (not a well performing school) but close to the upmarket area where the feeder is situated. Why bother inviting children to come and look around the school? Why not just be truthful and invite siblings and feeder children? Is the real reason my DGD has not got a place because her primary is undesirable to the selectors? Is it fair that children have got places who live miles and miles away and yet my DGD can see the school from her window? DGD very upset and frightened too and no one can offer her any words of comfort.

It is very distressing for you all but unfortunately that won't count in an appeal! Challenging the selection criteria itself would be a lengthy political process and won't help your DGD either, in the short term. It s important that you stick to what is challengeable in your appeal and don't confuse the issue with personal opinions or comments. The system may seem like madness or injustice but the appeals panel will make their judgements according to the criteria that are in place and any appeal mostly based on saying the criteria are wrong or unfair will fail.
The issue seems to be the impractical nature of the journey? That's where your emphasis and evidence should concentrate.
Other posters have referred you to the site for advice on school journeys. Particularly pertinent is the advice that a journey should not exceed 70 minutes in length and that children should arrive at school fit for education. Also the impossibility of transporting other children in the family to a school in a different direction.
I know you're all angry and distressed but please keep a cool head on this. You have to play by the rules of the system to beat the system!

Gilly from the last couple of posts am I right in thinking that two junior aged children travel to school on service buses on their own? Will they both be travelling long journeys alone when your older DGD changes school?

No Welshwife the children do not travel alone and nor will they as they. As it stands we have a very haphazard system involving me and several other members of the family and also depending on mums shift patterns. Accompanying the children in different dieprecyions WILL be impossible though and something would have to give.

That is dreadful Gilly - I can see that you would have difficulties with any public transport. I thought it unlikely that they would be doing it but when you were talking about them missing connections I just wondered!
So in fact there have been problems for a while with both children - will the children be going part of the route together when the school change takes place? I think your family seem to have really drawn the short straw here and are being expected to continue with it for the foreseeable future.
I would try the CA and also see if you can find a solicitor who has some experience and see if like most places they give a half hour free advice.
It makes you want to start a petition!

Apologies for previous post which is a lesson in typing on the move! Should have read "Accompanying the children in different directions will be impossible". We have had these problems for over a year now Welshwife and the stress is taking it's toll on me, my son and daughter in law, DiL's elderly nana and most of all the children themselves.

The recent letters from the attendance enforcement officer have really pushed us all to the limits and feels like yet another kick in the teeth from the LEA.

I'm so sorry you're going through this upheaval - then received such a nasty letter.

I have to think that the best response is to be to be overly polite and diplomatically on point. Anything said to any official involved, in a mean or sarcastic tone, will only hurt your cause.

When you go to the appeal I would refrain from saying how all the family help with transporting the children to school. The panel will just accept that the problem of getting the children to school on time has been overcome therefore it doesn't exist anymore.
If the admissions criteria has been adhered to correctly then I would appeal on the grounds that the distance your granddaughter has to travel alone is too far and unsafe.
You must take as much evidence as you can to the appeal,It has to be seen.
Take a printout(x5) of a map showing the route she would take from home to school. Have one for each panel member and clearly mark the bus routes and distance she has to walk. Also have timetables showing the times of the buses.
Explain very concisely whilst the panel members have the maps in front of them the route she has to take and the times involved.Don't take it for granted that the panel members know the area involved.Use the time you have been given to state your case to your full advantage. Evidence is vital.There is no rush.
I know you have been to appeals before but remember that the school have no say in whether they accept another pupil or not. They are there just to plead their case as to why they cannot accept another child.The decision is made entirely by the members of the panel.
Good luck with your apoeal.Some are successful.

Definitely, definitely appeal and hopefully your perseverance will pay off. I do know that if you are prepared to sit it out and keep appealing you may well get the school you want. Many parents drop by the wayside during the appeal process so , put that together with the fact that not all parents take up the school places for various reasons, and you may well stand a good chance.
Fingers crossed for you.

gillybob I suggest the following :

1) Make a formal complaint to the Director of Education about
a) the unhelpful way in which you believe the family have been treated in the issue of school placement. Highlight he difficulty for the children in accessing the benefits of the school curriculum and also, the lack of understanding in the approach of the attendance officer in offering any help to enable all children to access thier education in a timely manner.

State everything clearly and factually from when the family moved.
Try hard to leave out all the phrrases and words that you really want to say!

2) Copy this letter to the council cabinet member for education on your council and to your local MP.

I did all of this for the primary school appeal Saralice and provided clear maps of distance travelled, bus times, bus routes, costings and more. They were completely uninterested and my fear is that if they think it's fine for a 6,8 and 10 year old to travel such a long distance to school then they will think it's perfectly okay for a (now) 7,9 and 11 year old. Although we are only going yo appeal for the 11 year old at this stage. One of the biggest problems (they can't be very bright) is that they measure distance as the crow flies which fails to take into account farmers fields and a fast flowing stream. They don't/won't except that you cannot walk /travel this way and have to use normal roads and pavements.

I am not sure how long the distance by car/bus is, but when it comes to secondary school, going say 15 miles is not that unusual in some parts, albeit rural roads mainly.

Which is possibly okay (although not ideal) if there is a bus travelling the route Ankers . In our case there is no direct bus at all and she would have to take a bus into the next town (then wait alone for at least 15-20 minutes) and then another bus to school.

Measuring "as the crow flies" the LEA must think we have a helicopter at our disposal.

15 miles may not be unusual in rural parts on school transport and some pupils here travel that distance+ to independent schools by school bus, but gillybob's DGC have to pass two other schools to get to theirs, Ankers!

Yes I know that Jalima, but if gillybob were to try to argue the case specifically about distance in an Appeal, and she is saying on here about the crow flies bit, I wanted to alert her to what the LEA are likely to say back at her.

They may even go further and say that some pupils travel to school on mainland, after a boat ride. That type of thing.

I am on gillybob's side, as can be seen upthread.
But also, I can anticipate some of the things the LEA are likely to come up with about distance in particular.

What the LEA fail miserably to take into consideration is these are real little children . They are not numbers on a list or a statistic. My DGD is a tiny (for her age) 11 year old who has barely so much as crossed a road on her own (rightly or wrongly) she is frightened of her own shadow and cannot travel a long distance taking 2 buses and waiting alone at a lonely bus top. She is saying she will not go. Does anyone in the LEA imagine how she must be feeling? Do they care? (Well I know the answer to that one) . Can I ague with them about them measuring the distance as though my DGD has a pair of wings? Probably not. But that is how ridiculous it all is.

What you could do is take in a photograph of her, gillybob.
That is what we did[not sure what if any effect it had]. But we too wanted them to know who they were talking about, and that she was a person not a statistic.

That is, we took in a photo to the actual Appeal.

I Was. Strongly considering doing this Ankers but from experience I am not sure if these people actually have a heart. I was also seriously thinking about taking a set of her age 7-8 school clothes , but wondered if that was a step too far.

Gilly while I understand your anger and frustration you must put them to one side and deal in facts.

Firstly, get your GD's name put on the waiting list for the school

Secondly, I know you've been through this before but the appeal system for Primary/Secondary transfer is different from that first appeal. So put that behind you and with it all negative thoughts.

Finally, get all your ducks in a line. As I see it you have two strong grounds for appeal. The distance and the chance of buses are your strongest bargaining chip, especially if she will be travelling in the dark. I suggest you make the journey yourself and take photographs of parts that might be considered in a risk assessment e.g. Any roads to cross and if there is a pedestrian crossing and what the traffic flow is like.

You also say your GD is small for her age. Get her assessed height and weight wise on percentiles. And if you can get her present headteacher to back you up on her timidity all to the good.

PS has she has an assessment re being 'secondary ready'? My GS has just had his.

gillybob so sorry your GD is feeling so bad. Can I suggest you see her GP and ask for a letter of support, they may recommend seeing a specialist psychologist if she is becoming very stressed. Anything you can present will help. Can I also ask if your council has signed up to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child? If so they are in breech of Article 2 which says decisions taken must be in the best interests of the child 353ld710iigr2n4po7k4kgvv-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/UNCRC_summary-1.pdf
I know some people don't agree with these things but I think you should rely all the support you can get.
Good Luck
If they haven't signed up contact your local councillor and ask why.