Lost again

At the end of all the hurt you are feeling, and which I too have experienced, there is only one thing, "hope".
Hold on to hope.
Hold on to the possibility of, "another chance".
Hold on to your beliefs and to those who believe with you.
Things will someday get easier. As time helps our minds and soul heal.
Hope for the dreams that you cannot even imagine may come true.

Maddyone what wise words you speak! As a fairly new GNetter I did not know Nanban until now. This story has made me cry. I am so very sorry. Sometimes people have personality disorders, this may be the situation here, I would not know of course. As a retired psychologist my alarm bells rang when I read the little chap had suffered broken bones but you would have spoken differently if this came from something which could be a threat to him still. I have met many GParents who are refused contact with their GC. It happens more than one might think and is one of the most agonising situations in society and far more common in the western world or in the more wealthy nations. Your psychologist of course spoke true, you can do nothing. But I hope you have ways for comforting each other. I am glad you are together, many of us have lost our partners. Remember your GC will one day be old enough to make their own decisions and legally able to see whomever they wish. Even if you fear they will not be given to them, you could keep sending birthday cards and little letters from your holidays etc. Some people buy two of these and keep one, in case one day they may be able to show the child that they always thought of them. I hope and pray that this very sad and distressing situation will pass, soon. Since this has happened twice - if I understand correctly - it might be a revolving stage and you may be invited back one day. My feelings on this are a little extreme so forgive me, but should a happy time come one day and you can see your family, GC included, again, I would take the precaution of wearing a secret camera. On no account reveal that you are doing this. It is to protect you in the unlikely case that something unpleasant should be blamed on you. I may sound paranoid, but the small vignette you have given does make me feel there are hidden agendas in their house-holds and to have such selfish, extreme reactions; you never know what such a person or people together might do.
With my very best wishes and love.

I just raise my eyebrows Milly at yet another one [estranged] xx

Well said Nanban

Thank you NannaM

Oh! Nonnie

Thanks to all for the very kind words. I am really not too worried about having further descendants via my eldest GD. Yes, I know it's possible. She hasn't a partner at the moment although she's in a house-share - that was a very complicated ~menage a trois ~ which wasn't very happy and fortunately broke up. She's a joint tenant with this guy although they're not partners, and she's aiming to buy the place under 'right to buy'. I've promised to help her.

We are immensely proud of DH's family and 2 GDs who both love me. The eldest is probably going to be the first Doctor in the family, she's doing PhD studies in microbiology. Her sister has just spent a year in Florida and has qualified as a commercial helicopter pilot.

The last I heard of my elder daughter she was in Cairo teaching English. After being a serial truanter and non-achiever at school, she read Classics in later years and gained BA (Hons) having to learn Ancient Greek for the purpose! So she is a person I could be very proud of, but apparently I was an awful mum, not loving enough. Maybe being at work trying to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table had something to do with that. Her Dad had 20 years of declining health - heart, strokes - and didn't see his 60th birthday.

I think eldest GD is too busy to think of another partner, and she does help look after the twinnies, who are of course at school now. We met her recently and had a nice chat, but didn't mention any of them. We had enough to talk about and it was lovely. She's also very busy with Sea Cadets and is learning to be a site supervisor in the building trade.

I hope you are right NannaM but wonder what children will grow up to believe if all they have ever heard is bad about grandparents. My GS, at the age of 3, told me he didn't like me because I was horrid. I asked why and he said because Mummy said so but his sibling said I was not. What is the poor child supposed to think as he grow up? I expect him to believe his mother.

Nanban and all other estranged grandparents - my heart is aching all over again reading your words. I too went through the crazyness of isolation from my granddaughter. I went to court, and now have a Court Order, which my dgd's father is careful (and I think, grateful) to comply with. My dgd's stepmother - the alienator - keeps out of the way for now, thank God. But I am careful, so very careful. No criticism, ever. No awkward questions. My relationship with my dgd is all about her and I, and that's fine with me.
There are many many thousands of grieving grandparents in the same situation as you. Look up "Alienated Grandparents Anonymous" online. Their website is full of information. Especially read the "success stories" . They will give you hope. The situation you find yourself in is not the end. Children grow up and ask questions. Keep healthy and positive. Your dgc will find you. Hugs to you.

That old adage you can pick your friends is so true. We are not adrift from our son and his wife who live 15 miles away, nor the son or his partner who live here. But the balance is such a fine line. There are things we can't say to one because we know it will get back to the other, one dislikes the other living here in our small house with us but they say they are trying to move out. We are on tenterhooks trying to keep the peace and I sometimes wonder if its all worth it.

We had this for18 years until the gs himself also turned abusive and vindictive. We would have been better never to have met him as was the wish of his mother. My sons life has been ruined.

Starlady. GCs don't say much, it is clear they have been told lots of things they must not talk about. They once told their Daddy that Mummy had said they wouldn't get sweets if they told him things. I do believe the little they tell us though.

Not about her marriage, that was over long ago. Dil wouldn't let DS see his children.

Yes, there is something which sets her off - everything! Things that didn't even happen, things she has imagined, churned over in her mind, made into her reality and become big things. No way to prevent such things. As I said earlier, she says 'jump' and we ask 'how high'.

Nanban your last two sentences ring so true.

Hello Starlady - nope, we performed every task and more according to very strict guidelines - shopping lists sent before any visit etc -just like Margrete, her words describe my life too. A psychologist we spoke to, whose life's work has been the narcissistic personality, was horrified at some of the things that had occurred, she explained that the more we did the more angry it made her, she wanted us to fail, to react somehow badly to justify what she was doing. Her advice was 'back off and protect yourselves, you cannot succeed'. So hard to do but it was actually a great relief to have an explanation. We grandparents/parents constantly look for 'our fault', how can we make this better, what did we do. Just our best and in doing that just made the end worse.

Nanban loved the comment about the steak.

Starlady Nanban's d.i.l. is the problem.

Nanban the author of the book you mentioned brought out another one last year 'Healing Beyond Understanding' and I can highly recommend it.

Starlady if only it was that easy. The trouble is with a lot of these estrangements it isn't about what P's and GP's do or say. They're CO because they're just not wanted. You just can't reason with people who refuse to have anything to do with you for the slightest reason, or no reason at all.

Nonnie. We're the same, family and friends, friends who've known us since our sons were little and know us well, say the same thing. It's not our fault so believe those who tell you that it isn't your fault either.

Mr. S. saw one of our sons primary school teachers the other day and when she asked after them, he told her about DS and our estrangement with his brother. She was totally and said that he was such a lovely boy. He used to be but certainly couldn't be described like that now.

Sheilasue I don't know how they manage to sleep at night either. Perhaps they have nights when, like the parents they've CO, they don't sleep very well. When they do maybe they dream about their parents. I still dream about our ES.

Sorry I cant give words of wisdom, only sympathy, I too am estranged from my grand daughter and great grand daughter, she is nearly 7 and was 2 when I last saw her. So if its of any comfort you are not alone is this saddest of sad situations. x

Ha Ha nanban thats the spirit!iam sailing in the same boat and can quite understand what you are going through
God help us

Gabriella, I disagree with you. The extra "dear" reminds us that everyone is a human and deserved respect. Apart from anything else those are the commonly used and globally understood acronyms - if we start changing them just for this forum everyone will be totally confused!

Starlady
Iows?
Could you possibly use please use fewer acronyms? We have enough as it is. Why DH or DDIL? Why not just D and H, there is surely no need for D = dear as a prefix.
Not everyone is so short of time that they can't type a few extra characters.
I can understand the restrictions when texting but on here, it's madness.

Nanban, any idea why dil stopped speaking to you? Was there an incident that upset her? Did you ask ds if there was a problem? What did he say?

So sorry Nanban, what a hideous situation. Nothing l can say or do will help but l am thinking of you ???

Nonnie, I meant to ask, is there anything that seems to upset dil or ds even though it's innocent? Any clue in what the kids repeat as to what sets the parents off? I ask because perhaps you and dh could avoid those things to ensure continuing to see your gc? It may be something that seems minor, but if it bothers ds/dil, it may be worth avoiding.

So cruel how do these people sleep at night, what on earth makes them like it. Hopefully one day you will see them.
It’s so heartbreaking.

For anyone who hasn't read it Abandoned Parents, the Devil's Dilema written in 2004. Controlling, abusive and so much more is what happens and for no other reason than they can, they have the weaponry, they have our grandchildren. When most of us just want to get through life, doing our best, hoping to make our families happy, it is so hard to come up against the absolute opposite. I rather suspected that my d-in-l read and maybe contributes that I was super-cautious, but it did me no good and I am not covering up any more.

Nonnie, it's hard to know how much stock to put in what kids say, but it sounds as if there are already some tensions between your difficult dil and her kids. I hope they can resolve it over the years. But I also think it means they will figure out the truth for themselves. Since everyone else, including your other dils, tells you it's not your fault, please believe them. It's probably more about her or the marriage than you and dh.

Hm999, how wonderful that ds returned! I hope you continue to enjoy a good relationship!

RM, it sounds to me as if your mum was very hurt by her childhood experiences. I'm sure she felt abandoned by her own mum and that "a while" seemed like "forever" to her. I'm not surprised she rejected her mum when she returned, a lot of kids would do that. That's where I imagine the co pattern began, feeling co by her mum and then doing it in return as a defense mechanism.

But I think your experience with her shows something significant. When you accepted the co and left her to come around or not on her own, she did, even though not till 13 years later. Sometimes, imo, the best thing the distanced person can do is give the other person space... "If you love something, let it go..."

But still, I know her behavior must have wounded you deeply over the years. I'm so very sorry. (((Hugs)))

Magrete, my deepest sympathies on the loss of your younger d. How heartbreaking! xx

I'm sorry, too, that eldest d and younger gd refuse to accept your 2nd dh and have pushed you away for that reason! How would they feel if someone co them because of who they loved/married?

But I'm glad your older GD is still in your life. And yes, as RM says, you could still have gc through her.

Glad, too, that you're able to appreciate all the positives in your life and not dwell on the negative. Not everyone can seem to do that, but I'm glad you can.

Nanban Like all the grans here, I am so sorry for the predicament you find yourself in. All I can add is that my lovely son cut off all contact with no apparent warning, and a decade later returned in similar fashion. I hope that yours will behave the same eventually.

My mother was a CO type, she used to CO me for weeks at the slightest offence. I used to have to go round with flowers to make up with her. One time I didn't, and she maintained silence for 13 years - in the end she made contact with me, and never CO'd me again. Anyway, at 5 her mother went through a marriage crisis, and she went to live with her grandmother for a while. When the mother came back for her, she wouldn't talk to her and insisted on staying with the grandmother. During her growing up, her mind was poisoned against her father's family, who as soon as she was adult started trying to contact her but she'd constantly reject them, even though I thought they were totally genuine and just wanted to have her in the family. Basically my mother was simply a spiteful cut-offy type of person, and it looks like she might even have been born with that personality.