Apologies

Draw your own conclusions from my giving up on this thread LLL. I don't see the point in arguing for its own sake, which is what this has become.

I'm out.

MawBroom

In some cases they sadly DIDN'T bring up children who are well-functioning adults. Sadly I have heard of cases where marriages and relationships were destroyed because one partner was too married to Mommy and/or Daddy to really be married to their spouse and put the spouse and the family first. I've also heard of cases where major therapy was required to uninstall the buttons that toxic parents installed in their children.

In other cases, there may have been a balancing effect. Hubby, for example, has a lovely mum and stepdad. Hubby's dad is a different story. Hubby is high-functioning autistic and his dad basically wrote him off because Hubby didn't fit the "ideal son" fantasy his dad had constructed. But his mum was able to provide a more positive influence, although Hubby admits she may have gone too far overboard in trying to protect him.

That said, you would be AMAZED at what people can hide. Sometimes narcissists can present a very positive image to the rest of the world and yet be total beasts at home.

MawBroon
In a hole? . I'm sure that's what you wish.....but you're entitled to your perception grin grin

Keep baiting. It won't work!

Yawn. I’d like to care but I’d be lying, in the absence of relationship problems with my adult children who have been wonderful in the months since they lost their father, I just wish you’d put a sock in your verbal diarrhoea and give it (and us) a rest.
With apologies (genuine) to those whose feelings you have probably hurt without knowing anything about them or indeed the slightest bit about what you are banging on about.
There are infinitely more important things than your DIY psychobabble.

It’s strange how someone dishing out so much advice is telling everyone not to give advice in verbose and obscure ways. I’ve got higher degree qualifications in both Psychology and statistics, and you don’t need some sort of extra qualification to verify that, I’m not sure why the OP is so defensive in not revealing their own qualifications. The OPs postings have the ring of psychodynamic, unverifiable musings which do have a following . I’m also not sure how so many “toxic and narcissistic “ parents have managed to bring up so many sane and well balanced adults out there.

And since we are posting links, kindly visit the grandads link and maybe learn a thing or two. Hopefully something that would make you do something else with your life. Something else that would bring happiness into your own lives. And a form of happiness that would'nt solelely revolve around your ACs life.

www.gransnet.com/forums/grandads_shed

Mawbroon also had a great gardening link lol. Very effective if you're digging different types of holes.

www.gransnet.com/forums/gardening/1247791-Any-tips-on-digging-holes

In short find something else to occupy your time. Find a new hobby, visit a childrens home, just anything that doesn't involve the need to force your personal expectations into a reality that may never be.

MawBroon

In a hole? . I'm sure that's what you wish.....but you're entitled to your perception

Keep baiting. It won't work!

Chewbacca

And another quick question, what "credentials," do you have, that would make you remotely eligible to verify anyone's credentials in the first place?

I don't need credentials LLL because I'm not the one dishing out advice. You are. Is there a problem with you qualifying your statements by saying if you're a qualified counsellor? Or perhaps experienced in family conflict resolution? Perhaps if you could reassure us that your advice comes from a sound and proven qualification, rather than your own musings or pontification, you might be taken more seriously.

I'm sure you read my disclaimer, but since you insist leme ask yoi this? Pertaining to your other advice's on this blog, are you also certified to make those statements? Assuming I gave you my credentials do you have any qualifications on credential review in the first place? The internet is full of advice ans opinions. Learn to take what suits you and move on. If it doesn't suit you, don't insist on discrediting it solely for it maybe touches a sore spot, or you don't like it.

Usual double standard-victim responses
Those who posted after my last post declared this as "amateur psychology," but are still responding. Post didn't even apply to another but the pot is consistently stirred. One adviced others to stop feeding the thread and not to post anymore but they themselves are still posting. I think someone even told me to leave this thread yet they still here posting too. . Is it too hard to ignore something you deem as being negative? Do you have to go at all lengths to disapprove and do everthing to prove your opinion as being the only valid one? Can't you even control your temper online? You do realize that not everyone will agree with you or do things your way -
just because you're..... I'm sory....who again?....

A very simple apology, which would cost you less words than all the nonesense some are typing on here to stir the pot and prove an irrelevant point, was branded as undeserving, insignificant, air headed etc. Something so small that could probably fix it all, was stomped on, buried 6 feet under. But you're the same ones who expect their AC to have GC come to you for wisdom? How will you teach them to the value of an apology when you don't even know how to do it? How would you teach them truth when your own life is full of double standards How would they have an open mind, and learn to think independently when you're opinions are always right? Everyone else is wrong....or mentally unstsble.

One post that finally made sense to me " Only thing I can comment on is what may be trivial to you may be a big hurdle to pass for others."

And to add onto that, no one including your AC will put up with your self-righteous, over critical, overbearing and non-appologetic attitudes. But if it males you feel better to sit in the self pity corner and whine about everything and anything, but are too proud to simply say sorry - and want all the attention because you constantly choose to be sad, that's fine too. AC, GC and the world will move on like life never stopped even for a minute.

Maw - says it all!

love it Maw!

Perhaps I could refer LLL to this thread

www.gransnet.com/forums/gardening/1247791-Any-tips-on-digging-holes
With special reference on the best procedure to adopt when in a hole?

And another quick question, what "credentials," do you have, that would make you remotely eligible to verify anyone's credentials in the first place?

I don't need credentials LLL because I'm not the one dishing out advice. You are. Is there a problem with you qualifying your statements by saying if you're a qualified counsellor? Or perhaps experienced in family conflict resolution? Perhaps if you could reassure us that your advice comes from a sound and proven qualification, rather than your own musings or pontification, you might be taken more seriously.

Totally confused here, must be my lack of intelligence
No^ Bev1409, I think mcem has summed all this up quite nicely!

Totally confused here, must be my lack of intelligence, however these days it always seems to be me that does as I am told by my adult children ! Only thing I can comment on is what may be trivial to you may be a big hurdle to pass for others. enough said !

Badly written, verbose, ill-informed psychobabble!

Madgran77 I agree absolutely with your point "No advice/suggestion message" etc. Reminds me of a teacher who once said to me (I was a teacher too), that if a child isn't 'getting it, then the explanation is not being given in an appropriate way. If LLL has a point to make and meets resistance, then perhaps she should look at her tone as well as her replies to those of us who take issue with some of her points. Defensiveness is not a useful response LLL.
I think that's why I'm still here - I can see that some of her points are valid, but dislike the overall tone of her posts, which comes over (to me and I suspect to others judging by earlier comments) as all of us (despite the use of the word "some") being the authors of our dysfunctional relationships with our AC. LLL - I do realise that you haven't actually used the word 'dysfunctional' before you correct me in your usual manner.
My perception of what you say is that you are critical of us (ok some of us, although I still believe that your comments are generalised and therefore meant to include grandparents as a whole) and if we take issue with your tone, then we are deflecting your advice/suggestion/message, as Madgran77 said, rather than facing up to our responsibilities/fault if our relationship with our AC has gone awry.
Maybe we aren't deflecting; maybe we would like a reasoned discussion, rather than a lecture. I get the feeling that you aren't interested in that though.
Are you?

LLL "Despite using "some," several times, why do people insist on generalising this? Then say it doesn't apply to you. No one said it did."
As I said in an earlier post some of your style of writing does come over as a generalised application to "all cases" (I accept that this is not your intention) and the "some cases" does not always override that impression because it gets lost in the style of writing. To some extent that may be , on this site, because some people reading your comments are in the middle of a lot of pain - whatever the reasons for that in their CO situation.

No advice/suggestion/message will have any impact or help people unless they are able to hear it ...now that may be their problem; refusing to hear it; using tactics to deflect etc etc or it may be that the message needs to be given in a different way if one really wants to help....!! Food for thought maybe!

LLL And I meant to say that I am unsure why you think I have double standards from my perfectly reasonable questions and comments to you. because I feel that some statements need further explanations or ...??

LLL..".thought the previous consensus when I initially posted was "never admit, never explain." When did that change? Or is this another double standard"*
I have never thought that was an appropriate attitude and did not say that it was at any point in this thread; I believe that other posters did suggest that but not me!
I have never agreed with that view and in fact make a point in my life of taking responsibility for my own behaviours, admitting to errors and explaining if appropriate - with apologies if appropriate.
That was not a particularly constructive response to my comment LLL which is disappointing.

"Or do you mean that we on Gransnet (all of us - really?) are some sort of dictators over our households?"

Despite using "some," several times, why do people insist on generalising this? Then say it doesn't apply to you. No one said it did.

Fact is parent/ AC ties may be typified as supportive or strained. Supportive influence may be welcomed - but this discussion focused on the strained relationships, meaning AC deemed their parental influence as negative/unsupportive - irrespective of its supportive intent or "assertive nature."

Isn't it also true that once an AC gets married, the parents are no longer the head of their AC household? So yes it no longer belongs to you and doesn't belong to the "people who lived there." Which people? AC has started their own new home, so who "lived there?" Or is this also an issue for debate? And if it is, that's definitely a root for many problems.

"Would you allow a 2 year old to decide when, where and what it eats, the time and place it sleeps? " This doesn't even closely relate to what I posted - but to answer your question I wouldn't let anyone whose behaviour is nothing but toxic, anywhere close to them, leave alone to make any decisions on that either. Again if I choose to protect myself from a toxic person, I would never expose my children to that person because society believes GC need GP in their lives. In some cases they truly don't.

But would you let someone else influence your household on their terms? Don't grandparents have the, " my home my rules" policy when it comes to GC visiting? But they want the same policy applied in someone else's home too right?

I've held off from commenting on this, other than to express surprise that the thread is still running, but I really can't let your last comments go, LLL.

"Aggressive influence" - what? Aggressive - no. Assertive - perhaps. "No longer belongs to you?" - If you mean the bricks and mortar, then it does. If you mean the household consisting of the people within it, then, No it doesn't but then did it ever? Not in my household it didn't. It belongs to the people who live there and always did. However, as the adults for 18 years, we were in a better position to make decisions which affect that household. When our offspring approached adulthood, almost without noticing, we made joint decisions when appropriate. Before you take me up on the words "when appropriate", I mean decisions which affect the household long-term - a household which our offspring would, and did, leave when they set up households of their own.
In your post of 29.04.18 at 20.04, you refer to parental worlds revolving around giving our children 'instructions'. Leaving aside the fact that that is a vast generalisation, how would you run a household then? Negotiation with a 2 year old? Maybe ... when possible, but there are times when 'instructions' are vital. Would you allow a 2 year old to decide when, where and what it eats, the time and place it sleeps?
In the same post, you refer to 'authoritative rule'. What do you mean? Do you mean that those who, by dint of experience, can be assumed to know what is best? Or do you mean that we on Gransnet (all of us - really?) are some sort of dictators over our households? Not in my household we're not and never have been. Have you read Lord of the Flies I wonder? That's surely what can happen if no-one assumes overall authority over any society whether that is family or otherwise.
Finally, and someone else may have said this before (it IS an awfully long thread), do you have children/grandchildren? I'm not assuming that, if you don't, that you shouldn't be posting in the ways you have, I'm just thinking that theories are all very well, but sometimes one just has to live in and therefore experience what is really going on to appreciate how things really are.

PS (Yes, I know ... I said "Finally" above) I don't "claim" to love my kids. I do love my children, unconditionally, whether they did, or do as adults, as asked or not. Sometimes doing as I asked made them temporarily unhappy; sometimes them not doing so made me temporarily unhappy. That's family life. Actually, that's a successful relationship - the ability to love unconditionally through any frustrations for the well-being of the whole household - not just the 'kids' as you call them.

"what makes you think I'd need 18+ years to adjust to change? Only because you said so LLL"

Isn't it the truth? Why else would a parent feel the need to have any form of aggressive influence on a household that no longer belongs to them?

Bitter - moi?
I am not bitter.
what makes you think I'd need 18+ years to adjust to change? Only because you said so LLL

I should have heeded your advice MawBroon