How often do you see local gc

Perhaps she just doesn’t want to be around her in laws that often, is busy with her own life and her own husband and kids. Once a week is excessive...once a month is more reasonable in my book! In laws are so entitled when it comes to time with “their grandkids” news flash they have no right to any amount of time with them!

Thanks Starlady. You are right - we will need to be vigilant about guilt trips. My husband doesn’t see the guilt until I point it out so that’s why I prefer to be present to keep an eye on things.

The guilt has really messed up my husband. He feels obligated to do as mommy says, will lie about our plans to avoid having to tell her no to something, is made to feel bad about his grandma. And to top it off he lets his entitled sister $hit all over him with her tantrums.

I didn’t marry them so I choose to keep my distance. Husband over time has come to see that their behaviour is inappropriate and has let us cut back to 1 or 2 visits a month because he too enjoys spending time as a family of 3.

*Because I joined the conversation when toxic relationships were being discussed"

Ok. It seemed to continue even when others referred to other types of relationship. Anyway, thanks for responding

Some people bring out the worst in each other and are better without each other

"clash" of personalities.

That's what people mean by Toxic. They mean its physically wearing to be around that person. Death by 1000 paper cuts, etc.

And as I said up thread, its not necessarily that anyone involved is a "bad person", sometimes its just a class of personalities that does not work and makes everyone involved unhappy

So normal "quirks" weren't really relevant.

We were talking about relationships that wear people down & affect their life!

Your comments appear to never be considering those but just the extremes. I'm not sure why?
Because I joined the conversation when "toxic" relationships were being discussed.

Diktat, if mil is a guilt-tripper and as manipulative as you say, then I don't blame you for seeing her less than you see your own parents. And I get your needing dh to be present. I also understand your not wanting mil to get the chance to start her toxic behavior with your children. Besides, seeing gc twice a month plus holidays is lovely. Some gps get much less even if they live close by.

You surely don't have to give mil more time just because she asks for it. You've set a boundary and you have every right to keep it. In fact, you probably should because if you give in to one of mil's requests, there will probably be more.

Idk how old your kids are, but as they get older, they may see less of all their gps, anyhow, due to activities and plans with friends, etc. This will especially be true when they're teenagers.

But please don't be too certain that mil can't start her manipulations with them just because you "only" see her twice a month. Imo, you and dh still will need to be on the alert for that as the kids get older. If she starts any of her nonsense with them, dh will have to call her on it. And, sad to say, if that doesn't work, you may have to cut back on visits further. I hope not, but it could happen.

I agree Starlady!

First, to answer the original question. I see my dd, sil, and gc once a week plus major holidays, but as the children get older and more involved with their peers, etc., I expect it will be less than that. If dd and sil wanted to cut back visits due to other activities, etc., I would adjust, surely. If I thought it were because of something in my behavior, I would apologize, if I felt able to, and try not to repeat what they found offensive.

As for teaching tolerance, I think it depends. It's one thing to show children, we accept gm even if she talks a little too much or we make sure there are some dishes at the table that vegetarian gf can eat. It's quite another to show them that we accept rude or bossy behavior or that it's ok for gm or gf to constantly criticize and belittle mom or dad. Sometimes, imo, we need to show children that we cut negative energy out of our lives or, at least, lessen it. And sometimes, unfortunately, that might mean going vlc or - only in the worst case scenario, I hope - nc.

Mawbroon your comments seemed quite clear to me

notanan I made the same statement about not being able to change others behaviours further up the thread!!

I made a point of saying in my last post that I was not referring to more extreme behaviours (which clearly do not demonstrate kindness etc!).....I said that a little more kindness and understanding could be demonstrated for some of the less extreme (possibly misguided but not deliberately cruel or vindictive or controlling or whatever) behaviours etc that have been described. I also made a point of saying that I was referring to NORMAL family relationships! Your comments appear to never be considering those but just the extremes. I'm not sure why?

Thank you madgran I am sorry if I did not express myself clearly.
I was talking about university students who seem to need to be sheltered from intellectual rigour, from hearing views which may vary dramatically from their own and from forming their own opinions .
Even needing warnings that some literature like Shakespeare tragedies may include gratuitous violence or (as in Othello or the Merchant of Venice) racist or anti-Semitic references.
I thought I was clear, but apparently not.

All you can control is your own reactions, boundaries and limits.

Turning the other cheek indefinitely is not healthy relationship modeling, nor is trying to change/fix a person who is unpleasant to you. Those set a very dangerous precedent for kids future relationshios

But you cannot make OTHERS demonstrate kindness and understanding around your children. You cant change other people. All you can do is decide whether or not their exposure to such behaviours should be limited.

...grow to be more resilient!!!

notanan Mawbroon did not say people who think family homes should be safe respectful places are snowflakes! I have no idea why you wold have read her post as saying that.

Social Science certainly does evidence that children who have a safe stable home and witness healthy relationships grow to be more relationships. Truly healthy relationships include the constructive and healthy negotiation of misunderstandings, disagreements, differences of opinion that are all part of truly healthy relationships!

I am not saying that relationships should continue to exist just because it is family members ....but that children witnessing negotiation and kindness and understanding within NORMAL family relationships is all part of developing resilience as they grow up.

I am not suggesting that some of the more extreme behaviours described on this thread are normal family behaviours ...don't want any misunderstanding there ...but sometimes with some things described I think demonstrating a little more kindness and understanding would be ok, and a positive observation for children as they develop

I don't necessarily think keeping half of the family away for such toxic behaviour as throwing a surprise party is all that healthy and stable.
Still, everyone has their own opinions on the subject.

Just because someone is related to someone doesn't mean they should get indefinite get out of gaol free cards for behaviours that wouldn't be accepted by friends/colleagues etc.

Being family doesnt give you carte blanche. Family members have limits too. There is only so many times one can forgive & forget before deciding to step off the carousel (unless their confidence has been worn too low to do so)

Some people think that no matter how badly a person behaves, they should always be welcomed back into the fold just because they're family. But once kids are involved often chances run out, seeing a bad relationship through kids eyes can catalyse putting an end to it if you don't want your kids to grow up accepting bad treatment from others.

MawBroon social science says you have it all backwards:

Children who have a safe stable home & witness healthy relationships within their own families grow to be MORE resilient in adult life, not less

Whereas children who witness chaotic relationships in the home more often go on to struggle with adult relationships and also are more likely to struggle in general with adult life.

If you think people who think that family homes should be safe respectful spaces are snowflakes, well then the world needs more snowflakes!

How will a child ever learn tolerance if they do not witness it?

They won't learn it by witnessing intollerance and witnessing other family members acting like its fine/normal

I think there is also merit in teaching children that everybody is different, not everyone will fit into their way of thinking, or agree with everyone else, and that's all ok, because we're all individuals.

Quite. Which is why when people persistently demonstrate the opposite of those, behaviours it is important that children don't see their parent accept & normalise it.

A lot of people who have had less than perfect family relationships say that it taught them very well how not to be.
Yet pretty much all of social science says the opposite, that witnessing bad relationships normalise it and increase the risks of children taking chaos from childhood into their adult relationships.

How will a child ever learn tolerance if they do not witness it?
They won't learn it by seeing their parents worn down by persistent intolerance etc from others without standing up for themselves!